EricofSD, I mostly agree with you, but..... 'Maya, LW, Universe, Max make and animate the models. Poser has to rely on outside apps to make the models' Oh yeah? I haven't found the button in max that makes the models yet! LOL. Maybe it wasn't in max v3. I know what you're saying, but for the average hobbyist, making models like Vicki in any app would be impossible. That's why poser IS so popular. It allows people to create art without having to take a University course in making models. And there ain't nuffin' wrong with that. mac