aww geez lord byron, did you HAVE to go blow my misconception that the US educational system fails miserably with non wasp students? ( and most wasp students also ) been my own experience here that most non european ethnic group people are smart enough to be able to tell if a comment is ironic / humourous, or meant as a derogotory statement. ( personally, I enjoy telling ehtnic jokes to the group the joke is poking fun at, and not once has anyone taken offense at my doing so. ) I myself wouldn't have used the term "brown sugar" in an advertisement, it wouldn't have occured to me to do so. Mosca, better from Utah than arkansas. ~wink~

I think we are getting WAY TOO racially sensitive. Let's stop the political correctness.

If it makes any of you feel better, to us carnivores you all taste pretty much the same.

Hi there, I will point this out to someone on Monday. First I can assure you that, obviously, something offensive was not intended. I will point this out to someone on Monday. As many of you know I worked as a makeup artist for 10 years. One thing to keep in mind is the cosmetic industry. Here are some common names for cosmetic colors for light women: Porcelain Bisque Angel White Purity Winter Wheat Honey Suckle etc... Here are some comon names for cosmetic colors for dark women: Brown Sugar Coffee Cinnimon Stick Fudge Raisin Mocha Moonlight Forbidden etc... Lots of names that descibe skin tones refer to food. Brown Sugar is a food. I think our sensitivity to it is because it is sexy and was used in some films in the 70's. Wasn't it also a song? I don't think that is the case with this product. I think Dark Continent of Africa is really the same as saying "The Tanned Skin beaches of California" or "The Rosey faced landscapes of Ireland". But I will point this email out to someone on Monday. Anton Kisiel DAZ3D

Fyre-chan's gonna tork some people off, so if anyone wants to hit the bomb shelter now, I'll wait.
::waiting....::
OK, that should be enough time.

Mosca! I was getting worried! It's been a couple of months since you've stirred up some major trouble. Couldn't get biters on the "commercial textures for free items" complaint, huh? ::ducks::
I don't know Dalinise, so I went to look at her other products and her website. Given the way she writes and the small tidbits of what looks like a Germanic language in places on her site, I'd guess she's in Europe. I understand racial relations and language connotations are completely different there than in the US, and then you can add in misunderstands caused by translation.
Second, look at how the Brown Sugar textures started. I believe that first was a texture for Vicki and the Milgirls, and frankly, the kids look very sweet in it. "Sugar" seems fitting in that regard, and the skin tone is, well, brown, just like my skintone is a weird sickly white-peach-pink thing. I imagine Michael's "Brown Sugar" package was named that to tie into the earlier ones.
So...
Are the package names and "Dark Continent" references perhaps insensitive? Sure.
Does Dalinise need a little gentle enlightenment that it bothers some people? Sure.
Do I think Dalinise was intentionally being racist or trying to tork people off? No.
Do I think we need to get out the pitchforks and torches? No.
Do I think we maybe need to give Dalinise and anyone else in a similar situation in the future the benefit of the doubt and offer a gentle nudge in the right direction rather than burning at the stake? Yes.
Do I think I should shut up now after typing and then deleting several additional questions which REALLY would have gotten me in trouble? Oooh yeah.

Thanks Anton for you diligence. --lordbyron

This is always such an interesting place. Which is probably the main reason I visit so often. Larry F

First of all, thanks to all of those who jumped in and said what I am saying now. And for pointing this post out to me. I feel I have done nothing wrong, but will say what my vision is about this. Brown Sugar was in the first place a V2/Mil girls pack. The name was choosen to express how I loved the characters, sweet and exotic. I choose the name for the M2 pack also because of the familiarity with it and to link it to my old package. So that people would know that it was in the same line as the female package. The Dark Africa part was intended as in mysterious and the unknown mystical powers. As has been used for so many times to give expression to the deep forests and exotic, beautiful people. I had no clue as to how it would be interpreted by some in this way. As for my spelling and terms that I use, I am European and my english is fair but not great. But I like to think that most understand what I am saying and what I mean. DAZ was aware of the name and text and had no objections. But I will mention this post to DAZ and see what they say about it. Sincerely, Dalinise.

Is there a "Safe List" of ethnically correct verbiage that everyone can agree upon? One of the reasons I ask is because I grew up in an "ethnically diverse" neighborhood which consisted of a majority of "minorities" and, despite what term or level of PC terminology you used, someone would take offense to it. Therefore, since this type of discussion is more subjective than objective, I think we need to see a little more tolerance on both sides of the fence. Likewise, in one of my previous positions, I was involved in a similar discussion with someone who was trying to convince me that I was prejudice to all minorites simply because I have had a caucasian upbringing. All too often, presumptions and assumptions are made by some from their own vantage point vs those of the other parties involved. Much of this debate is contingent upon actions, terms, etc, from earlier periods in world history where these terms have have had adverse intentions. Although I regret that these occurrances happend - despite the fact that I personally had nothing to do with them - I can only see one solution to the issue: We must all strive to "clean the slate" and try to start over again. What has happened over 150-200 years ago is atrocious by today's standards, but no one living today had any affect or influence over that time period. Holding modern ethnicities responsible for past atrocities seems to be the hub upon which this debate relies upon; and is an imperfect approach at a solution. I believe that as one human race, we have striven to see the errors of the past and the vast majority of the world's populace has taken conscious steps to avoid repeating the errors of others. We all must come forth to the 21st Century and realize that we only have control of our own actions and minimal control over the actions of others. Any "categorizing", "generalizations", "labeling", "stereotyping", etc of one segment of the populace of another is going to result in adversity between the two. The best we can do is to try to come to some sort of compromise in which the greatest percentage of people can agree upon. Another brief point, I hope, is that this debate seems to be over the use of words and their negative connotations. Words are mere representations in text or other media to describe, as closely as possible, the intent of the individual using them. Words themself carry no emotional baggage except for the weight that the observer puts on them. We have to start to disassociate our own personal "emotional baggage" that we attach to words from words used by others. Simply discussing these differences between the parties involved usually equates to a real solution 90% of them time. The other 10% can be attributed to human behavior or other factors.

"We must all strive to "clean the slate" and try to start over again. What has happened over 150-200 years ago is atrocious by today's standards, but no one living today had any affect or influence over that time period. Holding modern ethnicities responsible for past atrocities seems to be the hub upon which this debate relies upon; and is an imperfect approach at a solution." Part of the point is that the descendents of the oppressors still benefit substantially from the actions of their ancestors, in terms of wealth, property and privilege most anglos simply take for granted. There's still a lot of levelling to do, if we really want to talk about "equality" and "justice" in this country. History is history, except when people are rioting in the streets of L.A. or Philly or Detroit or Cincinnati.

Mosca, you can't tell who is a descendent of an oppressor and who is not just by looking at them. A large number of White people in the US came here AFTER the Civil War and their ancestors never had slaves. A good number of Blacks also came here after slavery was outlawed, so they may have been discriminated against, but not truly oppressed. A good part of my family is German and Jewish - 2 groups discriminated against in the US for centuries. Because of my skin color though, (I practically disappear in fresh snow), I'm not obviously part of a group that was historically oppressed. Was it as bad for my ancestors as it was for Blacks? Not in the US, but Europe wasn't exactly fun and games for them. Don't forget that many countries in Africa practiced slavery in the past - a few still do, such as Sudan. This started well before the Europeans showed up. Some of the Blacks in the US have ancestors who were the oppressors, not the oppressed. It's just not as cut and dried as White = oppressor, Black = oppressed.

ROTFLMAO! Mosca, you still don't get it. Please... continue, with luck, I can keep meself entertained for a week. I find it funny because most folks prefer to think that they live in the present, and for the future... not wallowing in the past and claiming overly-hurt feelings over the smallest (and in this case innocently-made) comments. I tried to teach by satirical exampel, but apparently it didn't soak in. Therefore, perhaps a more direct approach is in order: Get over yourselves. While you're sitting here expending zillions of BTU's of emotional energy on trivia, there are very real problems in the world that can be solved if you each cared 1/10,000,000th as much as you do about "Brown Sugar". I mean, if you really want to claim to give a damn, and if you really want to expend emotional energy on something, I can give y'all a truckload of far more worthy examples than Mosca's hypersensitive PC-besotten troll. Or... you can continue to dance around each other, claiming that politically correct verbiage on one little artistic item up for sale on a couple of little websites is more important to the black folk at large than, say, ending the burgeoning slave industry in Sudan, or perhaps ending the AIDS pandemic that is currently eating the entire continent of Africa alive. The choice is yours... /P

Haven't you guys noticed yet that whenever Mosca gets bored, he starts something... and if there is nothing real to gripe about, he invents it? Ignore him and he might go away... but answering him means encouringing his follies.

Dear Dalinise: I wanted to thank you a) for replying to this convoluted thread, b) for making black characters (try illustrating tropical diseases in a talk without having figures who are dark), and c) for listening to the interests of the black users of Poser. I don't think you or Daz did anything wrong or meant any ill will whatsoever. I view this more like correcting someone for mispronouncing my name; my guess is that Daz doesn't have a whole lot of black people to even ask about these things. This thread seems like it has gotten much too personal at various points. Finally, is this an important topic? Well, even though your characters are beautifully done and I will purchase then, when I saw the name and a black face, I passed over them because I thought it was another one of those Vicky or Michael's in blackface. There is a Roman centurion on the same page;is it important if the costuming is accurate? Plenty of people will buy it any way... None of this is going to solve the great world problems but it might encourage your less than typical Poser user to buy your product Respectfully nemesis10

Hi Dalinise, As someone who posted opinions and observations in this thread, I want to say thanks for your comments. I know you're cool and meant no wrong, and your textures are things of beauty. It was great to hear your perspective. Thanks also to Anton for his informed comments and commitment to raise the issue at DAZ. If nothing changes at DAZ I think we should let this go and agree that we had a good debate. Now for the cranky part. Those who jumped in to say "you're too PC blah blah blah" with nothing more substantial to add, or who used the occasion to attack Mosca and Lordbyron in a dismissive way ... you are wrong. If anything, those sorts of attacks are censorial in that they dismiss issues which really are worthy of consideration. I'd suggest that if all you have to say is something like "you people are silly and oversensitive," it's probably better not to say anything at all. You're not going to stop the discussion, you have nothing to add but your attitude, and it doesn't exactly make you appear intelligent or articulate. Since I was mildly critical over the Utah thing before, I'd now like to thank Mosca for raising one of the more interesting issues I've ever seen discussed here. Props also to everyone who had substantial and interesting opinions in the thread. In my opinion, "this isn't worthy of discussion" is not a substantial opinion. :-)

Crescent-- In the U.S., if you're white, you're still the beneficiary of the racist principles under which the nation was founded; your ancestors and their children had opportunities that blacks didn't (not to mention Native Americans, who were too busy being dead). Peng-- Whatever. I'm always amused by those who post long messages complaining that others' posts aren't worth the time it took to write them. Seems like your whole strategy here is to attack (and/or patronize) the messenger and not address the message, which abviously you couldn't care less about. Fine--that's your business. But I'll post what I want, and if something riles me I'm highly unlikely, as you ought to know by now, to keep my big yap shut about it.

Thanks for addressing this; I don't fault your intentions in any way--I'm sure you meant no offense to anyone. DAZ, as a U.S. based company, should have known better, though. I'll put my money where my mouth is, too--if DAZ changes the promo material, I'll happily buy the package, which looks like a great value; the texture's flat-out gorgeous, as are the MORs. And, if it makes you feel any better, it looks like you and DAZ aren't the only ones in this community that could stand a bit of consciousness-raising. Yeesh.

Every nationality in every culture at one point or another had slavery or their version of it. If everyone in the world held current descendants responsible for the actions of their ancestors, we would be in a never-ending battle for litigation and compensation. I find "anglo-saxon", or variations thereof, nondescript for the majority of the people being discussed that are caucasians who, for generations, have been American citizens. After several hundred years and generations living in this country, we are Americans; nothing more, nothing less. All Americans, indeed the world at large, benefit from the past, even the darkest of periods. It seems that it is often overlooked that many caucasians and other nationalities fought on behalf of the slaves to offer them freedom and the same rights of any American citizen. It is rare if ever announced that these "Anglo-Saxons" attempted to champion the cause for equality of all natiojnalities, and still do today. This "black and white" situation is very far from it. By allowing these tensions to remain, you are only propagating and amplifying the disservices that have already been done. We need to change what we are doing now and tomorrow, since we cannot change what we did yesterday. Personally, I think the majority of the ethnic groups accused of these incidents have matured to the point that they realize the wrong that was done and have made immense strides in modifying their behaviors. However, a vast minority of those who were "oppressed" - indeed some who, in all likelihood, are not even descendants of the oppressed - seem to make it their personal mission to continue to allow these actions to influence the present; demanding recompense from people who had nothing to do with the orignal offense in the first place. All I am suggesting is that we cannot change the past, but we can influence the present and future. Live for today, to make tomorrow a better place for everyone.

"Seems like your whole strategy here is to attack (and/or patronize) the messenger and not address the message, which abviously you couldn't care less about." My whole "strategy" here is self-amusement, if you must know. At 65 wpm, I can write quite a lot in a little time. These ScanWit film scanners, while amazing little items, are way too damned slow sometimes... leaves me lots of slack-time during batch jobs. The only serious messages I'd posted in this whole affair consisted of "has anyone wrote DAZ about this", and the one previous to this, in which I expressed just how petty and insignificant your "message" was when compared to the real problems faced by the black folk as a whole. So... now that you've "raised everyone's conciousness", but about what? Racism? Hatred? Bigotry? Do Tell... if this little Vicky character is the absolute best example you can find from which to "raise conciousness", then I'm appreciably underwhelmed. But please, I beg you, continue to provide me with more fodder - for I think I've played every flash game in existence today... ;) /P

Wonder if white sugar ever caused such a mess. Cube sugar? Icing sugar?

My skin is 109,59,9 (RGB) or 6D3B09 (web safe) Sometimes I want characters who are a little more 247,200,154 (RGB) or F7C89A (web safe). Sometimes I want them more 247,220 154 (RGB) or F7DC9A (web safe). Of course, the last time I went up to a woman and complemented her on her beautiful 247,200,154 skin, she slapped the crap out of me because she thought I was referring to something else. Sometimes you just can't win.

Dalinise, As one of the more vocal critics of your product's name and marketing strategy, I, like the others, must thank you for taking to share your perspective on this important issue. If I have not made it clear yet, I do think that DAZ's and your intentions were innocent and well-meant. I respect both you and your work. However, because the world is an imperfect place full of hatred and pain, unfortunately, (and I truly sigh even saying this and wish I did not have to)innocence and good will, by themselves, are not enough to sustain goodness in the world. They must be the roots and stem of positive actions and their consequences. As a poet myself I understand and applaud your desire to convey "[the] sweet[ness] and exotic [nature] of your characters" or your longing to express "[the] mysterious and the unknown mystical powers" that "Dark Africa" represents to the European mind. You wish, like Baudelaire, Gaugin, or Cezanne before you,[Please forgive me. I study French and English literature.] to breath in the "parfum exotique" which can color your world with more excitment. But this desire, like the desires of earlier centuries to possess exotic spices, perfumes, or fabrics is not free. Such poetic beauty has a terrible dark side which continues even today to wage a terrible cost on the lives of those you have objectified as "the Other." Imagine all you wish, but open your mouth or paint a picture to express your desires and someone else who does not possess you basic good will uses your "sweet and exotic" characters to justify our "imbecilic and inhuman" nature. You wish to convey our "mysterious and the unknown mystical powers" becomes the rationale for why we are "evil and demonic" forces who must be subjugated. What I have explained is no thought experiment. It is the actual history of this "Dark Continent." The mindset which saw Africa and its citizens as "sweet and exotic" is the very same one which enslaved or destroyed them. And for every Baudelaire, Gaugin, or Cezanne there is a Thomas Hardy, Daniel Defoe, or Emperor Leopold (of Belgium) who described or implemented an almost genocidal slaughter in the name of the principles you espouse. This exotification of Africa, Asia, or the Americas is silly and dangerous. Please, continue to dream. This artistic desire is the essence of your innocence and good will. However, please be circumspect in how you convey these dreams. For these words (and pictures) will have a greater effect on the world than you know. Certainly, this is not my typical rational argument. It is more artistic in its movement from cause to effect than my earlier posts. But as a rhetorician, I make it my goal to try and convey my thoughts in a language my audience understands and respects. My earlier posts didn't seem to help you understand my concerns. I hope this does better. I only ask the same of you. Thanks for your attention and for trying to understand my perspective. (Not everyone has been so generous on this forum.) And thanks for your hard work. As I stated earlier, I intend to purchase your textures when you amend your promotional strategy for them. I stand by this intention. with sincere friendship, --lordbyron

Very elquent and poetic, however the theme remains the same. Perhaps instead of redefining the issue, over and over, we could define a solution? What would be adequate compensation and/or retribution that modern-day descendants of the "aggressors" could possibly provide that would appease the descendants of the "oppressed" to the point that this is no longer an issue between our cultures? I think we have a pretty good idea as to everyones' stance, however every attempt at offering a solution, thusfar, seems to have fallen on deaf ears, er eyes. There are those of us of every nationality and culture who sincerely desire to put this issue to a rest so that the generations to come can finally live in peace and harmony.

Cyber, While I applaud your efforts at reconciliation, the "monetary" model implied by your question of compensation is an inappropriate analogy for the problem. A closer analogy, I think, is that of a spouse who has been wounded by the infidelity of the other (and who still desires to stay together.) There is no one instance or action that the other can accomplish to regain the lost trust of the other. Any hope of reconciliation lies only in a patient and slow attempt to regain the other's confidence. The injured spouse may forgive, but hardly ever forgets the history of ill-treatment and abused confidence. So, to answer your question concerning appropriate compensation, I would answer that your "aggressors" should: (1) Try to understand why we feel the resentment we do. (2) Act consistently over time w/contrition to demonstrate that you no longer desire (openly or covertly) to injure us as you have (and as we see it, continue to do.) (3) Do your best to correct the whole history of wrongs and evil actions you have caused. (5) Remember, in the West at least, you have spent nearly 400 years committing acts of terror and genocide. It may take a similarly long time for many of those you have injured to sufficiently trust you again. 20, 30 or even 40 years of half-hearted lipservice to reconciliation is hardly enough time. This seems like fair compensation to me.

Lol, Bobasaur! I have a question. Can anyone here tell me please about any one group of people who have never been opressed by another group of people? Someone mentioned that merely being caucasian means having benefitted from the opression of others, or something of that sort. Does that mean that everyone who is caucasian should carry the guilt of their ancestors around like a millstone for eternity? Sorry. I don't buy it. I treat all the people I interact with with the respect and courtesy they deserve (most of the time. Everyone has bad days), and I expect my children to do the same. Color or ethnicity is irrelevent. It's icing on the cake as far as we are concerned; decoration. If I am not to judge others by the color of their skin, why should I be judged on mine? Which happens to be somewhere in the neighborhood of EFD5C7 if it matters to anyone. The other people in my neighborhood tend to range anywhere between 7B5533, and E3C595, though the majority are B98E5F. They really don't seem to care about my EFD5C7, any more than I care about their 7B5533->B98E5F. I really don't see why it should be such a fuss. >^_~

(shrug) - My own Teutonic/Swiss ancestry was oppressed by the Romans back in 200BC, and by the Vandals, Goths in 200AD. The Huns then had a go at 'em in 400 AD. Obviously, one would be hard-pressed to point out exactly where the Italian, French, Bulgarian, and Hungarian governments are profiting right now from that oppression, yes? So - I have a question here, a serious question: How much time will it take before I can see the end of having undeserved guilt forced upon me because of some random genetic accident of being born a certain color or ethnicity? I mean no offense, but I for one refuse to feel guilt for acts and deeds not committed by myself (or my ancestry for that matter...) Pity for the oppressed of all peoples throughout history, yes. Empathy for the same peoples, yes. Guilt? No. 'tis not my fault, 'tis not my burden to bear. I prefer to deal with everyone on an equal basis, as Dr. Martin Luther King himself had preferred. So I ask again of everyone here - how long? Until the last of those who lived during the Selma marches die off? Until the last of those who were the sons and daughters of the Watts rioters die off? Tell me when - set a date. I will then look forward to that date, and look forward to the day when the term "specific race" as applies to humanity is as antiquated as the memory of General Ludd. It will be looked forward to as a day when race hustlers and scam artists of any color become the deserved objects of public mockery, not the "leaders" they are exalted as today. Lookit guys... perhaps instead of waiting for that day to come, we can instead work to make that day come earlier. It would help by not jeering those brave few who do advocate individual effort, love of fellow man no matter what, rejection of "victimhood", and equality over all as "Uncle Toms", "Self-Hating", and if they're not black, "Bigots" (depending on color, natch.) ...and that's how I feel about the whole silly thing as it has spiralled waaaay out of proportion. /P

I dip in this pool yet again... I don't think I particularly want anyone's guilt and I agree that all of this stuff (race, sex, nationality, religion, political ideology) is a pretty trivial compared to the important things in life such as staying alive, advancing knowledge and art, feeding the starving etc... One major benefit of this discussion is that I probably would have never known that there were other black Poser users... I did want to add some observations. It seems to me that we are using "black" in two different ways; my skin tone is a golden brown with reddish brown hair and hazel green eyes but I am black in the way that a caucasian is not necessarily from the Caucasus'. This is my history, my culture, my parents and great-great grandparents (okay, some of them). Second, I think this thread originally started as being about the concept of politeness i.e... if Mrs. Jones likes to be refered to as Mrs. Jones, you don't call her by her first name and never as "Brown Sugar". Third, we all like Daz and would all like them to sell as many products to as many people as possible so politeness benefits them too!

i don't think any of the ladies of anglo descent would enjoy having a figure at daz, with their coloring, called "vanilla creamin'" and the guys....LESS. nemesis...you hit it on the head...if someone wants to call you some sort of "sugar".....they better know you alot better than off the street, or, on the internet. otherwise, they sure look like a fool. i think in part, some of this thread was by well meaning folks who do not want either daz, or, dalinese...looking like a fool. if we, as a community of drug....strike that...poser users ever want to be taken seriously among the rest of the 3d community....we better quit with gaffs like this latest.

So - I have a question here, a serious question: How much time will it take before I can see the end of having undeserved guilt forced upon me because of some random genetic accident of being born a certain color or ethnicity? perhaps, when they have nothing to feel "angry" about. many, shoot, most of us are still a bit, or lots of bits angry about what 9-11 did to our lives, and, in many instances our savings and investments. and, what it did to our peace of mind...the safety we all, as americans had taken for granted? that died. racial issues, here, are not as inflamed, as they were 30, 40, 50 years ago. yet, many of us have taken a stance, somewhere along the paths of our lives. we lived through it. we feel safe with it. it's from a past, kinder time in our lives. so, don't try and demean this thread, and what it may mean to each different individual who responds.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=8977

Actually, there is a texture set called "Cream." "...in the West at least, you have spent nearly 400 years committing acts of terror and genocide." I submit that the entire human race has been committing these acts much longer than 400 years. Sad, but true. There will be racial/ethnic/religious tension as long as: 1) People do not respect each other as individuals. We are much more than our race, religion, and gender. Stereotypes are a lazy way to avoid getting to know an individual. They lesson us all. 2) Anyone wants to "feel better" about themselves by putting down others because of their race, religion, or gender. 3) There are people out there trying to "stir the pot" by finding ANY excuse to feel victimized. People who do this alienate others who may have been friends otherwise. Quite frankly, if I have to worry about accidently offending you every time we have a conversation, I'd rather avoid the conversation entirely. There's plenty of fun people to talk to (of all ethnic groups and genders) without that worry. And on grocery labeling, what are we supposed to do? put down those hex values for colors that bobasuar started? The ingredient lists on food is hard enough to read already. CHEERS!

For those who do not read rendered Sign Language all that well, the hands spell out PEACE (clockwise from top). This thread gave me the inspiration. I apologize to anyone who may find any portion of the attached graphic as being offensive in any way. The purpose of the graphic is to show that all nations co-exist and the world can have peace, if everyone is willing to work at it. The use of the US flag's texture is an indication that American's have descended from nearly, if not every country on the face of the globe. ===== Credits: Composition: myself Earth: dreamer2jmc@home.com Flag and US Flag Texture: Mab Graphics Hand Pigmentation: various pictures on the Net Inspiration: Everyone who participated in this thread National Flags: CIA If I missed anyone, I apologize.

I have to confess that I haven't been able to follow this thread as closely as I should. However, first, thank you Cyberstretch for reminding us that we are all on the same side here citizens of earth and poser users. I don't think race will go away; perhaps it will become like hair color. However, our history is our legacy; perhaps we should view this like dining in a city where you can choose barbeque, pizza, or vegetarian and be glad of the variety?

lordbyron, Being a seemingly learned and enlightened individual as you appear to be, I am astonished that you would believe that I or anyone else would feel that any monetary transaction could ever compensate one human for the loss or otherwise dispicable treatment of another. I find it amusing that you immediately thought of monetary compensation when the real meaning of compensation is "to make up for, offset, or counterbalance". Nowhere in my post or my question did I slightly hint at any form of monetary compensation. It was your own interpretation of the post that gave you that impression. Likewise, the mention of the compensation / retribution was not meant to be an analogy of the problem; hence the reason it was so poorly one. As I stated, and has seemingly been ignored, I am past the "what's the problem?" stage and well into the "what's the solution?" stage. To answer your counter-points: 1) Apparently, regardless of how much anyone tries to comprehend the resentment that any nationality would feel against the Americans, it never proves to be enough or it is idly deemed "half-hearted lip service" or other derogatory sentiments. Since I am positive neither of us knows each other in person, I question the basis for your presumptions that I do not understand the residual resentment any more or less than the direct descendants of the atrocities? Are you certain that those responding have not, at one point in our lifetime or ancestry been persecuted and prosecuted far more aggressively than the nationality of which you represent? There are a myriad of forms of oppression, and not all of them were initiated by one race and targeted at another. 2) This is utter nonsense in the fact that it is a purely subjective view from the "oppressed" as to how the "aggressor" is acting or not. Here again, speaking of personal experience, how do you know that all of us do not "act consistently over time with contrition" about what we, as individuals of this day an age, feel about how someone has treated other nationalities in a past day and age? I, for one, never owned another human being, nor did I ever force anyone to perform acts outside of their own volition, nor have I caused any physical or psychological harm to anyone. I will not accept the burden of my forefathers simply because the descendants of those who actually suffered believe that the only way we can feel remorse is to suffer the same forms of oppression at their hands. That is simply ludicrous. As much as you claim we do not understand you, it appears that you do not fully understand us. It is this lack of understanding that is getting in the way of finding a real solution so we can live in peace. 3) No man, woman, nor child has the power to correct the wrongdoings of the past. Nor, as stated above, should someone who has never participated in the wrongdoings be required to bear the burden of those who have. If you have a viable solution as to how anyone can "correct the whole history of wrongs and evil actions" that anyone has done, I am sure that we are ready and willing to listen. 5) This part of the "West", as you so call it, has not been in existence for 400 years. Up until the formation of the United States, this entire area was colonized by many nations. Likewise, the entire world over has been involved in "acts of terror and genocide". I highly encourage you to research history and get the facts correct. Although this does not make it right depending upon the side of the fence you stand on, but you are, essentially, blaming the entire human race for the events of the past. Being a learned and scholarly individual, you must realize that the majority of these four requests are for "compensation" that is beyond the means of any mortal to provide. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that there can never be any compensation for the wrongdoings of the past and we will be eternally damned for it. I do not accept that as a viable solution. The art of compromise is that each side must make a serious and concerted effort to appease the other for the mutual benefit of both parties. Asking for compensation in forms that no one can possibly fulfill is not, IMHO, actively seeking a solution; but causing further injustice and indignity by allowing the past to continually haunt the present and the future. If you, in all your wisdom, can come up with a viable solution that does not require one side to become submissive to or dominated by the other, then I wholeheartedly encourage you to do so.

Excellent guesture cyber, I concur. My final words on this thread. --lb

"perhaps, when they have nothing to feel "angry" about. many, shoot, most of us are still a bit, or lots of bits angry about what 9-11 did to our lives..." And this has what to do with racial relations? Islamic fundamentalism isn't confined to any one race or creed. "so, don't try and demean this thread, and what it may mean to each different individual who responds." Demean this thread? Wow... never realized we were carving eulogies in stone here. Pardon me for blaspheming the dogma of radical victimology, eh? Here's an industrial-sized summary of my original point: It Is Time To Move Onwards and Upwards. CyberStretch has expressed the same point far better than I. /P

To all,

Thank you very much for your comments on our newly released Brown Sugar maps created by Dalinise. We sincerely apologize to anyone who was offended by the way they were named. There was definitely no intended offense towards anyone. The product names have been changed and hopefully the new names will be less offensive.

Sometimes we at DAZ find ourselves in a damned if we do, damned if we dont situation. Maps by Dalinise with this exact naming scheme have been present on Renderosity for many months now, and have likely have been mentioned in some previous Renderosity newsletters. So I have to wonder, if DAZ were located in Tennessee would the names have been any less offensive? Or if we had forced Dalinise to change the names before releasing her products at DAZ, then would we have been accused of either being hyper-sensitive or prudish (because we are located in Utah)? I mention this just to point out that there is not always an easy solution.

I am also curious if those who have sent letters to DAZ complaining about the product names have also sent similar letters to Renderosity? Im not suggesting anyone do so, of course. Im merely wondering whether DAZ is being judged by the same standards as everyone else. Why have these product names only been targeted within a day after they were put up at DAZ when they have been up at Renderosity for several months? Our concern about the names was diminished based on the fact that they have been here for so long without anyone complaining before now.

To Dalinise: Thank you for giving us the opportunity to host such great quality textures and thank you for your flexibility in allowing us to change their names to something that will hopefully be less offensive. We of course understand that your intentions were good. On the bright side, you cant say that your products dont get noticed at DAZ! :)

Sincerely,

Dan Farr
President DAZ Productions

Dear Mr. Farr: let me begin by saying how grateful I am for your company, your products, and the attention that you gave to this matter. I may be speaking for myself but I believe the title of this Renderosity thread was unfortunate (I believe the author was attempting humor which is doubly difficult in ASCII). Would the names be less offensive if Daz was located in Tennessee? No, strictly speaking, but I don't think anyone believes that either Daz or Dalinise was trying to offend anyone and your locations had only something to do with the title of the thread and not with the naming of the products. The second question is a little more difficult. Is Daz being held to a different standard; in truth, I hadn't noticed the Dalinise textures in Renderosity... If I had, I probably would have seen the name, a flash of dark skin in the gif of the product and very quickly and very deliberately scrolled past. I do look at the Daz product page very often and did notice the name and product. I was reading the forums here at Renderosity and notice that I wasn't alone in being a little perturbed by it. Realistically, I am aware there are very few black Renderosity and Poser people around so it was a topic of interest. I do think both Daz and Dalinise were wrapped up into something that is very complicated. I hope you do note that many of the authors were not blaming you or Dalinise but merely stating a discomfort with atavistic terms for people.

Danfarr: "Why have these product names only been targeted within a day after they were put up at DAZ when they have been up at Renderosity for several months? Our concern about the names was diminished based on the fact that they have been here for so long without anyone complaining before now." I responded to DAZ's marketing of the product because I get the DAZ newsletter in my personal email, and sometimes actually read it. I wasn't aware that the package in question was also available at R'osity till others in this thread pointed it out; now that I've been made aware of that fact, of course I think it ought to be changed here, too. Your concern about the names was diminished? Meaning you actually were concerned at some point? Seems like maybe that was the right instinct. DAZ and R'osity are apples and oranges, anyway. The R'osity marketplace is a loose affiliation of dozens of autonomous merchants, all pretty much responsible for vetting their own copy. You guys come across as a much more "corporate," tightly controlled entity. If that's a fair characterization, then the responsibility for such fauxs pas falls directly on you. "if we had forced Dalinise to change the names before releasing her products at DAZ, then would we have been accused of either being hyper-sensitive or prudish (because we are located in Utah)?" Not by me. And of course this issue has nothing to do with prudery, Utahn or otherwise. But while I've got you here, what's up with Vicki's anatomical incorrectness, anyway? "So I have to wonder, if DAZ were located in Tennessee would the names have been any less offensive?" This question indicates, to me at least, that you still don't quite get it. Because you're located deep in the midst of the rectangular-states-anglo-monoculture, you might have to work a little harder (ask around a little, at least) to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen. Id be happy to vet your copy for you, as a matter of fact--my usual rate for editorial work is $75 an hour. You guys should be thanking me, you know. Not only are you now on the side of the angels, I'm guessing you've also picked up a lot of page views because I raised a stink.

"My whole "strategy" here is self-amusement, if you must know." There's a word for that, Peng. Twelve letters, starting with "m."

Hello, Dan (insert super-secret-masonic-illuminati-Utahn recognition signal here): You do realize, if DAZ were located in Tennessee, certain not-so-polite folk in here would instead make assumptions based on the movie Deliverance*... Of course, if you were in Tennessee, it would save me quite a bit of cash in sales tax... hmmm. Come to think of it, maybe you oughta move after all :p Just kidding... thank you for clarifing this, even though you could've just as easily ignored this morass of a thread. Mosca: As a married man, that particular department of my daily life is well taken care of, so your suggestion of Masturbation I shall leave to its source, as it is IMO a single man's game. Given this, I assure you that my entertainment with you here is on a much higher (and subtler) intellectual scale. You see, some of us prefer to think above our waists for amusement. Now, kindly quit trolling the nice folk at DAZ, and get back to trolling over Nekkid Vickies or Pink Ponies or whatever other pedestrian warmed-over subject you have lined up next. /P * A lot of Poser folk I know and respect highly are from/living in Tennessee, including Mehndi, Russell, Tonymouse, and especially Faemeister Thorne, so don't even think about it, campers.

"As a married man, that particular department of my daily life is well taken care of, so your suggestion of Masturbation I shall leave to its source, as it is IMO a single man's game." I was referring to the intellectual variety, Peng. (if you keep doing that, you'll grow hair on your frontal lobe). But I'm proud of you for figuring out what the "m" word was, all by yourself. "Now, kindly quit trolling the nice folk at DAZ" No trolling involved, although you seem to have gotten yourself gaffed again, as usual.

ROTFLMAO!

Sure thing, chief - play it off all you want, but instead you got played, pure and simple.

Ah well, claim what you will, my little friend. I'll be more than happy to get you all worked up and angry the next time you act up.

Cheers!

/P

At the risk of starting more trouble........so where are all the decent african male morphs, textures and hair styles? I'll quite happily buy them...(you liar).. but free would be ok as long as they're of extremely good quality ;-) Being british I'm not sure what a Utah moment is but I assume it's a reference to racism....weird, I'd have thought that the 3d artistic world would have left all that nonsense behind. Mon