Ming, you mean the one for the realism challenge a couple of months ago? The render of the coffee table image was only a couple of hours. By doing the DOF postwork I probably cut off double that time and had more control over the image. Folypro, particle effects in bryce? I'd love to see. Closest I got was using the tree lab and making the trunk invisible with the leaves spread out. If you want to go outside of Bryce, BT had a really kewl explosion tut not long ago using uvmapper. FWtempest, sing away my electronic friend, sing away. If you make a 5 minute Bryce landscape that catches my attention then I'll be glad to overlay my face on the Poser dork and have the poser hat in his teeth! By the way, no one said you are an inferior artist. I recall voting for you in the past and anticipate doing so in the future. You have the eye. As far as pushing the programmers to make a program do what it was not originally designed for? GO FOR IT!. MS Word 1.O was not designed to be a desktop publishing tool, but today the current version runs way ahead of the DTP tools of yesteryear. P5 is leaps and bounds ahead of P4 pro. Why? Cuz the programmers didn't say "gee, the creator two companies back had a vision and we have to limit our modern knowledge because of it". Push the program, push the company, and push the programmers. Again, in the words of Kenny Rogers I have to say... younger women, older whiskey, faster horses, more money!