I think it was a productive thread and ming seems to be interested in Bryce now. I'll always use Bryce because, as I've said, its got a great render engine and its where my scenes come together. Yeah, I have seen some realistic landscapes and the cover of the bryce box is just one example. I also agree that terragen is a very limited app, but there are reasons for that and it will remain a limited app for quite some time. FWtempest, I know what you mean about the snobbery of the high end app users. Its a shame. I'm not one of those guys yet and if I do learn EIU well enough to be comfortable I'll probably go to LW for all the poser plugin stuff, but that's a ways off. Ok, happy rendering everyone.