Hey Colm, I dig it! Dang, I hate those P4 nostrils - what a relief this is a thing of the past. I'm so tired of allthe post required..... Mind you, it's not just the nostrils, it's the 'P4 can't throw a shadow at close quarters' problem of which nostrils are one example. The other major one is feet appearing to float above ground because they get no shadow that close. Is this all fixed now in the new renderer? Judy's nose leaves much to be desired in my view - it's a sharp dividing line between her eyes, kind of. Don has it too, but a lot less. I think Judy's nose bridge needs to softened up a lot. And her mouth has almost no detail, no curve or fullness to the lips. The area between nose and mouth is far to big. Her eyes seem to lie too shallow. Pick pick, nag, nag.... Don on the other hand is really good - a really charming guy. Not quite as square and masculine as Mike (who is also fine), and that's good - gives variety. His left eye droops, giving him an asymmetric appearance, which may be accidental in this render, but is not a bad thing. His chin is very square indeed, perhaps too much so. More Judy: Her nose is in fact far too small for her face, at least it appears so in that first render. And the nostrils have such thin walls, they look fragile. Yeah, I know this is not the point of this thread, but I thought I'd give my views anyway. :o] :] FishNose