I have to agree with Pendarian. There's no way to know what render times we can expect from Poser 5. On the one hand, you can assume it's a raytracer so it must be slow, but that's not really true, is it? We know they've added reflection/refraction and strand-based hair, but we also know that technology is progressive, and it's possible, in fact, likely that CL has found ways to speed up these processes. We're comparing apples to oranges here, and we're not even sure how fruit has evolved in the last year. From what I've read, CL is saying that the Firefly renderer is completely revolutionary. I'm willing to believe that. I also am willing to believe that our classic terms of ray-tracer, scanline, and phong renderers might be too overly defined to apply in this case, as the press releases clearly state that the renderer combines a lot of different methods. Maybe we should all forget about what we "know" and instead acknowledge what we don't know. I'm sure Steve and the gang have a hole lot of surprises up there sleeves. Most people forget how revolutionary Poser 4 was for its time. I have no doubt that Poser 5 will be the same. Paul P.S.: Where the hell did they get that 3ds max render time? I use Mental Ray with Max and I'd be glad to stack it up mono-a-mono against LW and C4D any day. ;)