Thank you for the Poser 4 renderer-- for some people that may mean they can get P5 now and upgrade their computer later. For me, it means that for those renders I'm going to throw into Painter or plugin to death in PS, I don't have to spend too much extra time on. The rest I can go crazy on-- once I figure out what all that means. Shaders?? I would love to hear a render time on that reflection pic. And please tell me its a professionally done manual and not some rinky dink thing. This Program needs a Photoshop quality manual. Did I mention thank you???;)))) Oh well, thank you again. and even though I don't think Judy's face is all that great, I have the greatest faith in Poser morphers to go nuts on variations. I Loooove her body, little bit more like reality.;-) Did I bother to thank you? Emily