Hi, It's mathematically impossible to certify a program more than five lines long, is bug free. Though there was some fascinating experiments done in "provable computing" on the viper32 platform back in the 80's, but I digress... :) There is also an economic case to be made for shipping a program, (ready or not) after it's been in development for more then two years, "patch early, patch often" to paraphrase the users "breastplate" (a form of early Celtic protective spell :) But when is a bug a feature, and vice versa? I don't have the program (yet) so I can't really comment on anything but the renders I've seen. But the thing that has suprised me most has been the number of dud renders I've seen from the firefly render engine, and by that I mean in comparison to the p5-p4 renderer. Where missing facets and blured textures seem to be the norm. I wouldn't mind but we've been promised that all our old stuff will work with P5. Now I don't know about you, but I figure that the strength of any graphic app lies in the quality of its finished output, and while you could argue that poser is more of a pre-production tool, for a great many of us "hobbyists" it's the means of producing the finished product. One of it's selling points after all was a better renderer... I Think that a good 60%+ of "bugs" may be down to user error, and certinly during the first two weeks many people are going to cry foul first, and look stupid later. But as more people get P5, if the same issues continue to make themselves felt then somebody has to take notice. Becuase if a small number of people can't work it out, it's thier problem, but when a large number of people can't, then it's a problem with the design (if not the coding) of the program itself. later jb