Sorry Ron I compltely missed the refernce of that. My last post should really have been addressing MisterDog since I was really replying to his query about why CL implemented Firefly, you were just expanding on it. BTW at the start of the year I was working on a new render engine (Reyes again) plugin for ProPack and I had enough success with passing geometries through a Python interface into the compiled code to believe it was viable. I pretty much ditched the idea when P5 was announced, but now, after the (apparent) disapponitment of Firefly, I might just dust off the existing code and have another look at it, once I've finished my current project. Bill