Hmmm... I am probably going to get slammed for this, but what the hay... Out of all of the supporters for P5 here, the ones that impress me most is both Entropic and Legume, who have made done a good job at offering support as to why they feel that P5 is a good product, or one worth working with if you have it or ordered it. And I agree with Legume 100%, if you have it and you don't have any issues with the litature, go for it. Only by trying the program can you really make an informed decision!! JeffH... you were doing really good and made some great comments particularly in regard to the use of this forum to help learn Poser, well said!! But I fear that your "whiner" comment caused that well said comment to be overlooked. Ron... I am sorry bud. I know you mean well and want to support Curious Labs and Poser 5. But you're unfortunately harming that cause. No offense, but your comments as of late make you sound like a snake-oil salesman or a really cheap shill. Tone down some, express more using solid points instead of all heart. I know you mean well, but you are causing people to overlook your posts or what you say. ...Sorry... Well... might as well open myself up to some critism here too by posting my views... Poser 5, to me, is a expansion pack. Sort of like Diablo's HellFire expansion, or the SIMs Hot Date. The only difference being that with those games you need the "Core" to utilize the expansion... This is not the case with Poser 5. Full or Upgrade, it contains the core of Poser 4 in it. Yes, this may be disappointing to some, none-the-less, it contains a familiarity (interface) to it that many of you have grown accustomed too. However, Curious Labs, as mentioned already, has added 3rd Party software to the program and in doing so has added some interesting features that beg to be played with. Make no mistake, no matter that it uses the core of Poser 4, using Poser 5 IS NOT going to be as simple to learn as opening the program and tweaking a few dials. Those who are advanced in using Poser 4 or Poser Pro Pack are not going to be able to just open Poser 5 and create images or products at the same speed as they were in Poser 4... at least till they take the time to learn Poser 5. When I first opened Poser 5, I felt totally unprepared for what I had anticipated. My skill and knowledge with Poser 4 and Pro Pack, suddenly seemed as though I had been playing with completely different program and instantly I knew that tutorials were going to be needed. For the time I used Poser 5, I needed to learn how to setup materials, adjust the settings on them and define their uses. It took time, it took help from the other beta testers and in a couple of days I was able to learn. Same can be said about the Hair Room, the Face Room and Clothing Room. It is going to take time and patience to learn it all, and yes, you may be like me and end up feeling overwhelmed. Give it time, practice... if you truly want to use the powerful tools that Poser 5 has, be patient... If you want to just pick up, dabble or do images quickly and efficiantly and don't want to take allot of time relearning Poser... stick with Poser 4. It is still a valuable tool. As for bugs. Yes, Poser 5 has bugs. If anyone tells you differently then they are decieving you. Nor am I going to list them, they are there, even Steve Cooper admitted they're there. Will I be using Poser 5 or support it? Not just yet. For those of you that visit Poser Pros or read my other threads, my reasons are explained there. Maybe, in time, I will be able to comfortably use it. At this point, till the concerns that I have are satifactory met, I will be sticking with Poser 4 and Pro Pack and will fully support those applications and Curious Labs. And this is my point folks... Poser 5 may not be for everyone. It may not work the way you want it too, it may not be fast enough, professional enough or just to damn hard to learn... regardless, Poser 4, Pro Pack and ARE worth supporting. And also let me say this... even though I am disappointed in Poser 5 and wont be using it at this time, I respect the fact that Steve Cooper has come to the Community sites and said that there are still issues that need to be resolved. If you are uncertain about the purchase of Poser 5, then don't purchase it. Or wait till you are satisfied enough to do so. But still support Curious Labs for their other products in the meantime. Just like the life of Poser 3 didn't end when Poser 4 came out, or Poser 4 ended because Pro Pack came out, the life of other Curious Labs products WILL NOT END because Poser 5 has been released. Products will still be developed for them, not everyone will update right away... or ever. So don't throw the baby out with the bath water, just because you don't like the new version they came out with. Sorry for the length of this post... just felt it needed to be said. Jack