Wolf Regarding the Reyes renderer you are very close to my point. The fact is that with this technology Poser users should have much higher expectations in terms of performance and quality. The fact is that CL screwed it up. A basic Reyes implementation - even without ray tracing, should have given us a much better quality and better performance than Firefly seems to achieve. Pixar don't actually use raytracing (except for a few frames in Bugs life) and don't use a lighting system that is any more sophisticated than Poser's. A lot of atmospheric effects are illusions created with solid geometry objects, and reflective surfaces are almost always implemented using environment mapping. Professional animators avoid raytracing like the plague, because at the end of the day (rendering) time is money and if you can fool people with a scan line render at a fraction of the cost, then that's sufficient. Tirjasdyn - I hate to break it to you, but the back face polygon culling problem is very definitely a bug. This routine is one of the simplest and most basic pieces of optimisation used in rendering. It requires a simple vector product calculation and test for the sign of the result. Back face polygon removal is very important for anyone who wants to optimise rendering speed and does not care about about reflected rays - especially animators. I have never seen any renderer fail to implement this correctly. When I was university it was one of the very first things I was taught abount 3D graphics. I find it almost inconceivable that CL could have screwed up the arithmetic in first place, let alone fail to spot it and correct it before release. Saying that a bug isn't a bug because users can disable the functionality leads naturally to the the concept that software bugs do not exist at all, where any software use is optional. Bill