"The real kick in the pants is, they released such a bug-ridden pile of crap just to get it out the door. That should infruriate EVERYONE. Even those who don't mind that it's the same old P4 with some new widgets slapped on." Dude, I'm not gonna bother. If you're that pissed off, call and ask for a refund. The fact is, most of us don't have the bugs you're talking about. In fact, I haven't had a hang wedge or crash yet. Not saying it doesn't happen, but, hell, it's a very few people making a lot of noise and expecting the rest of us who are incredibly happy with the program to stop enjoying it. Screw that. I'm sorry you've got issues. I don't. Most don't. So stop making it out to be like Curious Labs is persectuing us and ruining the product. Poser 5 is the biggest evolution of this franchise ever. Those 3rd party apps you keep dwelling on cost 500 dollars or more, by themselves, so I'd say you're getting a deal. As for the manual, I've personally already got two CL - to - English translations out there in three days. You call them tutorials. Kiera has a couple, as do many others. In other words, get a grip. There's no need to fly off the handle and scream bloody murder. If the program doesn't work for you, fine. It won't work for everyone. Go buy May, Soft|Image, Lightwave, 3ds, or some other app that suits your needs. Personally, I'll stick with P5 and 3ds max together, because for what I want to accomplish, they are more than enough by far. And I'm currently finding Poser 5 vastly easier to learn and use than 3ds max was when I first picked it up. Paul