Soulhuntre I must disagree, in priciple at least, with your low expectations of what Poser's renderer should be capable of. Especially, Firefly's big problem (or so it seems having read the responses) is that it is actually a pretty poor (re-)implementation of the Reyes renderer design, ie. exactly the rendering architecture that was used in FF. Implicit in this technology is the opportunity to handle many of the higher level features. Reyes is not actually a difficult (maybe not simple though) technology to implement (I've done some work on an alternative renderer for ProPack, so I know). The evidence that I have seen, however implies that CL pretty much ignored a major cornerstone of the Reyes design principles (locality) and possibly missed a few tricks in subdivision as well. They have therefore [apparently] ended up with an implementation that performs below expectations (and renderers in other applications) with less features, even when acknowledging that it improves on P4's basic scan line implementation. Whether this was due to a misunderstanding, or lack of experience, or whether CL believed (wrongly) that they could improve on the technology is moot. The fact is that, probably with less effort, they could have gone for a text book implementation and got a better result and one that would have compared more favourably with other apps. Bill