No probs, William. I think that was demolitionman, but you can blame me for it with no hard feelings. ;] Btw - heya DM. Long time no see. waves shrug sshaw, I have problems with the idea that even on 1st release software consumers should accept a state of affairs where "It's the first release so it has to be buggy", or "it's only a [insert $ amount here] so it's bound to be buggy". That's an insult to the customer, and it leads to a situation of dwindling quality in coding standards. Taken to an extreme in the "release now, patch maybe", you get situations like those that have killed a number of gaming companies, and caused PC games to start talking a backseat to console industries. It's not true either - I've seen games that took 3 - 4 years [that being about how long it takes to code a game engine or app from scratch] that worked with minimal patches needed. I've also seen "only $49.99 programs" like Thief II and System Shock II that worked out of the box, with the only patches needed ones to add functionality for new video etc hardware specs, and plug minimal coding errors. If you don't think that a major game engine is as complex as a graphics app, suggest you write John Carmack and ask him. Different criteria perhaps, but equally complex to code and debug.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell