Dirk, you don't want to kiss CL, DAZ and Osity butt? That's fine. Try getting help from MS. You can pay by the hour. An hour of their time is like 15 hours of your wage after taxes. Osity has been a godsend in communicating with others and getting links to tuts and freestuff that fixes certain things with models. I think Osity ought to have some butt kissing. It costs me nothing to be a memeber here and read threads on techniques and tips. Imagine buying a Shams Mortier book for the big bucks and then throwing up at the thought that you could have been more satisfied with a really good lobster dinner. Get with the program. We have a good thing going here. Take advantage of it. By the way, you have a web site up with some tuts? I do. Granted they are silly tuts, there are people who learn from them. Dave So, look, we all know you are disgruntled. Software refunds for CL are the same as everyhere. Once you open it you own it. That's all there is to it. If it trashes your system, too bad. The software industry will not suffer from people who buy, install, and refund any more. Better to punish the innocent than take it in the shorts from the immoral. That's the age we live in. Knowing that, beware when you buy. Don't buy a first run anything. Wait to see what the reviews and patches are. If you want the excitement of being the first person on the block with a color TV set, then so be it. If you want quality then wait until quality has a track record. Folks, I posted a thread asking about texture and face room questions. I got flamed. that's a shame cuz I really thougth someone would have a work around. Guess what I posted were real bugs. So I'll sit back and wait for the patch (bryce was the same way, before the patch B5 had some serious issues). And I'll direct my training questions here. oh, one last thing. Training videos for LW, Maya, and Max are very expensive. Don't expect to get that for free from CL, they have other things to do. Sorry, don't mean to be so harsh, but I'm a bit disappointed at the ranting against CL and the flaming that I've gotten here for asking questions. Guess the pro CL flamers didn't read my tribute to Kupa post.