As someone too cowardly to load P5 on my current PC (actually shopping for a new system), I am always careful to note in any discussion of P5 that there clearly are people who have serious usability problems that should be dealt with. And perhaps guilt over that caused CL to rush out the updater too soon also. On the other hand, to answer Spit's question, I think there are several reasons why people who have not had these problems with P5 post in the complaining threads. If they did not, the impression would be left that everyone has had problems, and accusations like Turtle's, that CL shipped knowing there were major bugs, would seem more plausible, given CL's admitted cash flow problem. Although CL has acknowledged that it became aware of certain non-critical bugs after the discs went into production (which is not unusual in the software biz), there is no evidence of which I am aware that CL knowingly shipped a product that would by and large not work on a large number of systems. That is tantamount to an accusation of fraud, and anyone who makes it really ought to think twice before doing so. Another reason why people respond to the complaint threads is that there has been a number of people who feel the need to vent their complaints, generally the same ones, on a daily or hourly basis. And a fair number of these complaints (and to be fair, I am not referring to Turtle's complaints on this point), are not complaints about actual, serious bugs, but were complaints about features that P5 did not include and was never advertised to include, criticisms of the renderer based on a complete ignorance of the fact that a more advanced renderer will simply take longer to render things than the old P4 renderer, or of the fact that the new renderer by necessity handles maps differently, and so on. It wastes my time to have to page through twice as many screens here every day, just to skip the usual rants from the usual suspects. I only occasionally post to the complaint threads to point out that those who I consider whiners do a disservice to those who actually have serious problems. Moreover, it is a two-way street. Open up a thread of people who are happy and excited about their well-functioning P5, and almost invariably, there will be posts from people who have problems, legit or otherwise. Such is the nature of a forum like this one. And when the discussion remains at least semi-civil, I think good things come from it. I, for one, in looking at new systems, will be careful to avoid apps that seem to conflict with P5, like Roxio's EZ CD Creator, and Norton Anti-Virus (both of which I have on my current system). Had I loaded P5 on my current sysytem and had problems, such info could have been a life-saver. That being said, I would add kudos to Dave-So for what seems to be a very good faith effort to overcome completely understandable frustration to work on getting his problems resolved. I am neither rolling in cash nor able to write P5 (or other software) off as a business expense myself, so I feel a certain degree of empathy on his account. And I hope that once it looks like any issues with the updater are completely ironed out that Turtle will give P5 another try, because the renders I've seen so far make it look more than worth it. At least you can take comfort in knowing that when I get a new system and put P5 on it, having written all of this, I will have some major problem, and you can all chant "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" in unison.