I think at first I was a bit confused, ray tracing,radiosity,global illumination... anyway.. when I bought P5 I really thought firefly would have been a dramatic improvement from the P4 render engine. So now I realize that raytracing... can give you reflections, or refractions and ray traced shadows.. big deal.. sow now i can have mirrors ...wow...well I'm not that impressed... I was hoping for more.. I downloaded Povray a few minutes ago.. ran a test render with radiosity.. (seven minutes).. that's what I was hoping firefly would have done for me.. I don't want dark shadows.. I don't want to cheat with 12 lights. I want to set up my scene with one light call it the sun.. and press render. I want to see light bounce of walls.. and light up the whole room. I want realistic lighting.. something Povray does for free.. see above example.. I paid full price... and in Canadian dollars that was $570.00 just got my visa bill today... I think I deserve more. Personally I think I got ripped of... maybe I was a bit ignorant... and I should have waited longer...done more research.. actually now that i think of it... i should get radiosty for free.. for all the BS I had to put up with the first few weeks.. By the way thanks for your help... I really do appreciate it... but now that I think of it.. Ii shouldn't have to go through three programs just to render a realistic scene... (poser--> poseray----> poveray) After spending over half a thousand dollars on P5 too much.. Nick