"Incorrect presumption. A .x release is a minor release and not a new product. Since the only value added was a few features needed mostly by Professionals (hence the PRO in Pro Pack), CL could not have gotten away with stating that the Pro Pack was anywhere near a new release nor even applicable for their larger hobbyist user base." First, it you scroll back to post #54, you'll see the little ;-) emoticon at the end of the paragraph, which ought to be a tip-off that I was kidding in that paragraph. That being said, I agree that it's generally true that .x release is a minor release, but if you take a look at reviews for 2 of Adobe's flagships, Photoshop and Premiere, you'll find complaints that PS7 is not really a major release, and raves for the major additions mad in Premiere 6.5. Moreover, the release of P5 demonstrates that CL is trying to position Poser as an app for hobbyist and pro alike. Accordingly, issuing ProPack as P4.5 would have been consistent with that strategy. And if you want to argue that even a minor release would have sold more than a product expressly marketed as unnecessary to most of the customer base (despite the fact that P5 ultimately incorporated may ProPack features), be my guest. "Jack has admitted to being one of the beta testers, like many others. To presume he has "inside information" would be a likely case; ignoring the fact that he has a history in the community to base his convictions, opinions, etc, off as well. Just like the presumption that he is bound by the NDA, as the rest of them are, not to disclose certain information would be logical to presume. Most NDAs' "authority" ends when the product has been released. Yet, it would seem CL took extra measures to ensure that "silence is golden" even after release." If you care to search this very forum, you'll find beta testers stating on the record that they didn't see any of the major problems some users have experienced. And since Jack has been typing out of both sides of his keyboard in this very thread -- it's just a story, no, wait, it's my conviction, no, wait, it's my legal duty -- his claim rings hollow. If Jack has some smoking gun based on inside info, he'll do the community a favor by becoming the named plaintiff in a class action against CL by P5 users, rather than claim to be bound by an NDA, then write "stories" that he apparently believes violate that NDA, which is why he then retreats back to th "only a story" defense. I will certainly agree that Jack has a history in the community, though Jackson certainly didn't want me to discuss it. "Perhaps you would like to disclose your involvement and where you get your information from for the public scrutiny of the community?" Ah, yes, I was waiting for the unsupported attack on my credibility. For the record, I have no connection to CL or any of it's employees, other than as a customer. In fact, my only communication with CL in years was to e-mail them that Airborne failed to deliver my copy of P5 on time. They promptly and more than adequately addressed that complaint, even though Airborne was primarily at fault. That would be the extent of my bias. As for where I get my information, I get it from many sources which are publicly available. In this post, the Photoshop review I believe can be found at zdnet.com, the Premiere review at creativepro.com, and the comments of the beta testers are here at R'osity. Again, one of my major points, should you bother to read my posts, is that people should base their opinions on what they know, and if they want to go public with their opinions, they should expect that people might ask for the basis of those opinions. My posts are not intended to defend CL as much as they are to request that people who want to criticize or attack CL state their reasons. For example, if you go back to read this thread, you will find that Jackson and I have a number of areas of agreement, because Jackson can actually identify the facts that back up his criticisms. If Jack's opinion is based on information gained under an NDA, he probably shouldn't be writing thinly veiled screeds against CL based on that information, should he?