thanks it was fun :) I did a x back also and yes to the fixed points i was trying to see if i could use stressing to get the gatheres and there by reduce the total requiered number of pollys. the sim thow with out a lot more playing on my part dosent look like it will do it. so will have to model the gather into the dress or texture it in if it is nodeled in will have to remove the points from the sym for tacking this works but for a full area hmmmmm,,,, would think it would change and make the drape un natural.. I knew Phil could do the main one you where asking for :) and as this was adressed to Him i left it alown :) love Your work Phil :) the X back makes a grat nighty :) and done short would be a great tedy :) wish i had a way to host these id put them up as freebies. any takers for that ? Laters Vel