I just watched a show called 48hours. A national news show here in the states. The story was about a lawyer who used the poser Dork and Posette in a court case to convict someone of murder. They were the plain figues. In a basic room with only a few furniture props. The guy didn't even have any hair! And the figures never moved. Get this: The lawyer said it cost him between $18-20,000 for this so called state of the art animation!!!!!!! If there are any lawyers here. You can reach me at scottasba@aol.com. I'll create a REAl animation for you. And do it for 1/4 of the cost. Un freakin believable! ScottA

hmmm... I bet he billed out the programmer's time at the lawyer's rate. I can't imagine anyone billing that much for a simple pose/render. Either that or he had all the furnishings custom made. Nah, I can't imagine even that taking that much $$. What do you call 100 lawyers drowning in a terrible accident? A good start. (This joke was told to me by my lawyer)

I forgot something in my first message. The lawyer who lost was pissed because he said the reason the animation was so damming to his client was because: The figures looked too real! I thought you Millenium figure fans would love that one. :-)

I watched the show also. I think the money figure that was quoted included everything. He said the cost of this case was eighteen to twenty thousand. Of course, I am sure a lot of it went to the animation. Look like stock Poser figures to me. Bill

Hey! i am available for animation S AND I will make them look REAL S

Hey, I've done a lot of support work for lawyers in various capacities, i.e., documentation, client scheduling, etc., and I have to tell you "real" is all about the eyes that are looking. Nothing more and not much less. That lawyer who lost has probably by now got a real education and, should he and the other clash again the "winner" is in for a "real" shock.

for that, I'll model a new character(s), make the animation, and..yep..even ad the pink pony (supplying a small royalty fee to doc) as a special bonus 'extra' background character who watches the whole thing take place! hah

The state paid money for a posermation? I can see a defense attorney using something like that, but the state? Wow. I'm sorry I missed that show. Yes, there are several lawyers here and at least one person here who uses various apps to create animations for court.

I don't think the state flipped the bill Eric. Because the defense lawer said it was a case of the plantiff's side having more funds available than the defense did. He said that he was upset that his client didn't have the money to do the same thing. And use an animation of their own. ScottA

actually... check out my "work" site... www.jaap-orr.com click on the cars on the home page. We started doing Forensic Animation a little while ago. Doug

Right, so it was a civil liability case, rather than a criminal conviction. I rather thought so. Ok, now it all makes sense.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/25/48hours/main526999.shtml Here's the web site....yeah that looks like dork and posette. Does anyone know someone at 21st century animation in Dallas Tx? It says it cost $15,000

$15,000? Just goes to show lawyers aren't the only scam artists!

I see Poser figures used in legal animations on TV news shows,Court T.V.,etc, ALL the time for years now.The Simple Poser male and female figures with simple moves.Since when is this big news?LOL.Wish I was the smart entrepeneur(did I spell that correctly?)who got those bucks! Sweet.

Attached Link: http://homepage.mac.com/kflach/media/BabyS.mov

p.s. QuickTime is Required. It was actually a lighting test for something else I've been working on. And I should have hit the violence Flag.

Huh. There is an old saying:- Sanctus Emo erat Friso, advocatus et non latro, res miranda populo.* * Frisian.

My last contact with a lawyer (UK: solicitor) was inheriting my mother's property. My brother handled it and I don't know how much was charged. I once asked him how much it would cost me to get him to send a "solicitor's letter", and the answer was rather alarming.

Semper ubi sub ubi

Oh my goodness, I saw that too, when the lawyer also said the price I fell over, obviously they charge to much......Sharen

Thanks for the article, Tirjasdyn, it was criminal and the state did pop for the bucks. That opens a few doors.

I think some of you guys need to aim a little higher. The annimation in question could be a couple of thousand frames long. Allowing it has to be 100% accurate , you would have to visit the crime scene and take measurements and photos, veiw the crime scene photos of the body , attend court,etc etc ,I think $15,000 ewould be about right.

OK ...... I will do it for 1/2 that ...... 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 ...................... DarkTalon

I posted this at 48hours feed back. There are thousands of 3D artists on the net today. We have been talking about the Poser4 animation used in the case, and all agree that the price quoted included a new golf cart or two. You can access the 3D community through (renderosity.com) check it out, you wont believe it. DarkTalon

I did not see the show in question, but there is more to forensic criminal graphics work that placing a naked Dork or Posette in a scene and hitting the render button. Everything is dependent on the needs of the individual case. Distances, scales, lights, props, sets and even clothing may have to be very, very precise. How tight was the deadline for the work? Did the company have to pull staff from other projects to make that deadline? Who would be culpable if the judge ruled something in the video or the way something was portrayed was inadmissible? Would the production have to redo it if that was the case? 12fps, 15fps, 24fps, 30fps or greater? Synced audio? Was it a full screen animation for use on a 27 television? Transferred to tape, CD or DVD? How about insurance? Yes, insurance would be part of overhead figured into the work. Etc., etc. There are any number of variables that were most likely not even mentioned and some of those variables do not come cheap. Was the price too high for the quality of the work submitted? I dont know. I didnt see it and I cannot tell from the image at the CBS site whether it is Poser or not. Without seeing the specific proposal and technical needs from the attorneys wanting the video and keeping the above mentioned items in mind, I would not even hazard a guess as to whether the price was too high. But why should the producers be called scam artists simply because they were able to make the sale? Do I detect some deeply submersed jealousy here? The market has been there for years. Poser can be used for more than Naked Vicki in a Temple. Take care and be well. casamerica

There are thousands of 3D artists on the net today. We have been talking about the Poser4 animation used in the case, and all agree that the price quoted included a new golf cart or two.<<< All? Do not assume to speak for ALL. Tell ya what. Do an animation or series of images where a person's freedom, financial future or life might hang in the balance. Do that knowing that a judge might toss it all because the car used in the scene was the wrong model or that one of the "characters" was, in the judge's opinion, intentionally modeled to "... depict evil or malice in an unfair and prejudicial manner... " and then tell me about the golf carts. I don't know if the price was too high or not because I do not have all the facts necessary to make that determination. I don't think anyone else here does either. Let us all rewrap our jealousy and go back to work. Take care and be well. casamerica

Im trying VERY hard to break into forensic animation after seeing Dork an posette featured so prominently on TV crime recreation Dramas My advice is too send a Demo reel to several law firms and perhaps District attornies Office. in your area. I have also heard that Many Courts do not allow super hi res realistcCharacters in forensic recreation (ala Final Fantasy) because its "prejudicial" and many Jurors may acutally be confused and think they are watching some thing "real". so that why we see Dork and posette with thier "Plastic" looking P3 hair being used. If I can Catch A few few of these gigs a Year I would be happy :-) -wolf359 founding member of "the 12 animators"-

Of course, if they start using Mike for these crime reconstructions, Dan Farr had better watch out. Bill

DarkTalon

The article says the animation is 72 seconds long... at 30fps .. 2160 frames..... that's a lot of animation to work on in one shot in Poser. I can tell you that from experience. Ed

EdW, you're wasting your time trying to explain. Evidence A is the post just before yours. Tsk, tsk. It does appear as if someone's in the midst of a maturity crisis. I was going to try and show how the price >might< not have been all that unreasonable by showing a budget, storyboards and schedule on one of the last projects I was involved with. I was not the animator on that one, but the project director. However, it is apparent that any attempt to try and help people understand what actually goes into such a project so they would know how to present themselves without looking like a lost member of the "Little Rascals" is best left for elsewhere. Take care and be well. casamerica

I suspect a little more was involved than just loading the dork figures and rendering. As it has been mentioned, a lot of stuff has to go into making this work in court. One of the biggies is accuracy if it is going to be used to help explain the forensic evidence being presented.

I would think that several folks were involved in the production and that it took more than a day to do. Say it took a week. 5 days at $3000 a day for 6 people working on this. That breaks down to $500 a day per head, or $62.5 an hour per man.

Now, my friend who runs the local computer repair shop gets $60 an hour to fix your computer, and he will not have to go to court and prove his work to the judge (err, we hope). I use to do protection work. $500 a day is middle to average in that biz, course you are expected to take the bullet if someone decides to shoot your client.

Now, my guess is that this animation probably took longer than a week to put together, so $1500.00 does not sound all that unreasonable to me.