I'm sure I'll be taken to task for this, Oh absolutely I'll take you to task, I'm not sure which tasks I should take you to yet, but I'll figure that out later. :) No, post 14 wasn't much of anything to do with this thread, I agree. Though it called a valid question it belonged elsewhere and shouldn't have been used in response to an interpreted slight (whiners), IM or something perhaps. I agree there have been very few "Hey, it's working now, lookit this" threads and not too many happy ones. There have been some, they're here in this forum from the start of it all but got swamped by "It's not working for me" comments. As "It doesn't work, it's broken" received "It must be you, it's working fine for me" answers. Those aren't what I'm on about. You'll notice that whining and complaining is used quite a bit to describe people who aren't praising Poser 5 or being happy with it - along with "shut up and go away" used in another thread. You may also notice I slipped a word in as well. Drooling. These words "whiners, complainers, droolers" are calculated to get a reaction. I don't care what anyone says regarding their use they are accusations and will usually get a hostile response. Yes this thread drifted off-topic, but nobody was insulting anyone, nobody was arguing, just talking a few things out. except for two people. Most worked around the couple of hot remarks posted and got on with things. Almost no thread here stays on-topic beyond post 10 anyway. LOL There has been a lot of criticism. I agree. Would you like to see the full compiled list of bugs to-date? Grounds for complaint I think - perhaps not grounds for the extremely hostile complaints that have happened and some of the imagery that accompanied it but as you well know people do get passionate. If Poser 5 is fixed properly people will get just as passionate in a couple of months about how good it is - same as they did with Vickie etc. "Damn she's ugly. insert invectives and list of complaints" Now? It's no different. There's another "happy with Poser 5" thread been started. I've not seen any arguing in that one yet either. So, yes I do feel you were unfair to the people in this thread who did contribute and didn't use provocative words. Sbertram started in with his "I can't believe the amount of whining going on around here" yet didn't qualify it until later. Cyberstretch may have been wrong with post 14 but as one of the voices at the forefront of questions and complaints against CL/Poser he may have felt a need to lash back. I don't know and I'm not going to pretend to know. I don't think that his post warranted the comment it received in return, quoted in post 24. Whatever though. You've seen topics here and elsewhere go wildly off-topic after a while and then swing back again. This one started to degenerate into "you suck" "no you suck" but it didn't need to and most of the contributors carried on chattering. sbertram had some valid points in his post, he spoiled it with "whiners". I have seen a lot of "whining" around here, from both camps, and some very heartfelt posts as well that were invariably buried by some hot head with a bug up his butt. It doesn't need to be like that - you know that, I know that. Generalisations are invariably the cause of most arguments. Especially in heated times like these people should be just a little more cautious of how they write what they write or they are going to get someone snapping back. We can still all get along together anyway. I mean, we ARE adults, right? Well we can all get along yes. You and I have had disagreements in the past and I like to think we're still net-buddies, we've not AFAIK torn into each other about anything. However, I disagree with the adults part. Look around the forum. Can some of these people be called adults? Either camp - pro or upset/anti - take your pick. Some of them are worse than 13 year old hopheads jumped up on their own hormones. Some aren't. It's the "aren't" that will eventually win the day and return to rationality. The hot-heads will fade, leave in a snit, or just go quiet except for the occassional eruption. Just like it's always been. Remember the "warez amnesty"? How that erupted across the forum in two camps? The "body-suit" fiasco? Release of Victoria then Mike? Pro-Pack? Avatar Lab? It's a cycle. It happens, people get passionate about it and blow off steam. Then the dust settles and sensible discussion and rational argument takes place until the next time. It's always the same. One last thing though. No, I don't qualify myself as an adult. I'm just as guilty of acting like a ferret on crack. But then, I've never hidden the fact that I prefer to act my shoe size rather than my physical age. :)