got love people compairing 350.00 P5 to a 2K + base program cost plus there plugins and calling it a toy. P5 is far from a toy, thow not as advanced yet as the hi end pacages it is still a very viable tool for pro useage. I use it for my productions as its far far faster the rig and pose a charicter in poser than in my other pacages. I dont use Max, but do own and use Maya and True Space the second also toughted as a so caled toy. But yet TS render engen is one of the most advanced built into a pacage that is available and its nurbs at the fastest to use in (My opinyon) <--- Personl preferince here. P5's firefly render is a fantastic advancement the cloth and hair rooms also very usefull and the Material room works well also. For many simple productions stills short animations with simple sceenery Poser now creats a useable finished render of excalent qualaty for productions. any program has potential as a pro tool. if used for its stron points. admitedly most of the lower proced or free ofering have few if any strong points to utalise. I get so tired of these flames there totaly unproductive. Take up Bandwidth, and serve only one perpose and that is to bash something by some one that hasnt the desire to dig into a program they paid good mony for to learn to use it. so they wine bitch and bash and get no where in the process. Time to take that negative energy and put into learning to use the tool you spent your hard earned cash on. I say they payed for it dont even want to acknoledge the ones that didnt pay for it as there not even worth notice. Laters Vel