IMHO, the whole "hacker" / "cracker" mixup wouldn't have occured if hackers stayed on their very own systems. Breaking into anybody else's system to do whatever you might call it, is simply a crime. Improving their own system may result in great innovations (You just named it - ERC, for example). But "improving" someone else's system is just a lame excuse (IMHO). I wouldn't shoot them, but make them pay for the loss they've inflicted. That would put them on hold for quite a while - and they could do real WORK for a change. WIlly