The problem as i see it (could be wrong) is we start with a figure in the arms up position, so if you model the shoulder seam on a jacket in the correct position when he puts his arms down its in the wrong position...experimentation will get it in the right place i guess, but then it'll be the wrong place as his arms go up LOL.....this image shows a jacket for vikki trying to get arm seams in the right place...I know what you mean Phily its kinda tech reasons and just learning new tricks on the way (like creases), one problem with mike that i've noticed is if you make it fit the geometry file he pops out in posing, now thats ok in something like the new freebie i just put up coz you can hide stuff but on others you just gotta scale up his clothes to hide things wich is a bummer......Steve