Laurie : Thats why i was pumping you for information. To try and get a better feal for it . I thought the forest one from Daz's was a bit on the drak side or i was doing it wrong. I like your idea of the noon sun . Besides i always add my shadows in Photoshop. I was thinking of something with pillars ( broken uprights and leaning ones ) in it to use the add-on and to give it more depth but it seems to confuse some of the people. I look foreward to seeing more . I might try 2 different renders a top and a bottom see how that works . The top from a horizontal / horizon view and the bottom from a birds eye view maybe, something like that .