whew indeed!!!!! thank you so much! its actually starting to make sense now. going over the manual, and this thread, im sure ill have a full characters w/ a proper joint set up soon.... your methods seem to be in the direction im heading...... i do my grouping in uvmapper, and spawn props once in poser. i do use the HE to create the basic joint set up (much better than phi builder imo), and will now tweek in the set up room and further w/ the joint editor..... thanks so much people....... peace and chicken grease. (stay tuned......)