I used P5 yesterday for the first time since SP1 came out, (experimenting with SP2.1) I rendered the same scene with both P4, P4 in P5, and Firefly. 24 light global lighting, (by Blackhearted) 2x Mike, 3x Vic, hires textures, transmapped hair on the females, and the result surprised me. The P4 renderer was on a par with firely, the shadows were a little better, a little more subtle with firefly. This is switching everything on except texture filtering, (texture filtering is a no no, for hires textures, renders stop when you run out of memory, see the beta forum) I didn't use any of the rooms, default everything save the switches in render options. The P4 in P5 renderer was quite a suprise, while the p4 and firefly renders were consistent, the p4 in p5 render skewed the lighting, if you flick through the three you can see the shadows move back and forward. The real odd thing thing was that one of the vickies has a half shaded face, but in the p4 in p5 render the face was fully lit. Another weird thing is that one of the vickies (the same one actually :) is using blunt hair, down to the shoulders, yet in firely it's actually lit, (from the inside) whereas the P4 render is dark, (as it should be) I figure that's because firefly has a much more advanced lighting model, and I haven't tried to tweak it yet. It's a little daunting to hear people talk about working out depth of field on a calculator I'd show you the images, but they're both big, and vaguely pornographic, technically speaking they within the TOS, but given what has been yanked lately, I suspect the same fate would befall them :) later jb