Hi thanks for the input :) and the vert tight curl is what i was going for :) should have postd the prevue as well :) the render looks straight and frized this is true :) wasmainly trying to show that the colision was working in that the hair lifted and pushed forward by her hands. but for sure the coments are right. Smiles thanks aleks for being honist in your feelings of the post :) can defenitly understand being a bit gun shy with things as they have been latly. I should have been a bit more exspliced in what i was showing here. do need to get it to flaten out and more bunched like the previue looks tight curled dredlock almost but this render shure didnt show them. Laters Vel :)