Quote - > Quote - This particular horse has been reduced to a paste. Please stop splashing it around. We need a new dead horse before flogging recommences. ;-)

Dear Lord! Please! Another horse! My kingdom for another horse... as long as it is not:

Genesis

Dazstudio

What is wrong with the business practices of

External Rendering Engines

What constitutes art

Low Poly vs High Poly models

Arcane processes that 3 people here actually understand, but which 174 others want everyone to THINK they understand. (The 3 are actually welcome to participate in such threads!)

What is wrong with every figure out there

All of these horses have already departed for the glue factory. Pretty much everything else, I'd enjoy a conversation about!

what about a topic about...

Naked vicki in a temple not being taken seriously as Art by High-end 3d modeling programs that arent compatable with DAZ studio and uses a third party render engine, that causes issues when imported to Poser?

is that horse dead? Or cant I make a topic about it :P

Quote - > Quote -

OH thank you for the links! I like how easy it is in sculptris to get a creature out of it. Its just the extra stuff that is bogging me down. But I do want to learn to get it rigged etc. I will go through those links and try to move forward with the models.

Reading manuels puts me to sleep. So I'm a fan of youtube or anyones video's :) There's a lot of Youtube Video's . If there on a diffrent version might not be 100% how it works on this version.. http://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewPPrice/videos & http://cgcookie.com/blender/ 
seem to know there way around Blender.

We all got blogged down,over overwhelmed and just drove insain.When we started.
Paying dews sux but we all half to appease the CGI Gods.

Just have fun and I swear it seems I'll learn 10 new things while I'm trying to get one other thing.If ya stick with it . With in a few months from now ya be able to have Beast from cube to total completion sculpted,retopologized,maped,textured,rigged etc etc with in hours.

manuals always get my head in a twist. But SEEING something being done, I pick up allot faster. Thank you for the link and the support. It means so much.

Quote - DarkElegance :

good lesson with texturing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W07H7xeUnGE

and forgot to say when modeling or retopology .the rule is to model 100% quads.
Most insain rule ever but that's the rule.
even thou catmull clark can SubD Tri's most app's leave's that part out.

so ya model or retopology beast with a 5000 polycount with mostly quads and a few tri's ,SubD once.makes the polycount 20.000 & 100% quads ,magic.
it's how Vicky 4,5,6 is modeled more or less.think there might be some mudbox in 5,6.

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stonemason :
lets sincerely hope all of the real out dated 1995 CGI Tech has been upgraded buy now :unsure:

OH thank you for the links!

I like how easy it is in sculptris to get a creature out of it. Its just the extra stuff that is bogging me down. But I do want to learn to get it rigged etc. I will go through those links and try to move forward with the models.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I'm not suggesting Poser users make the next Toy Story.  I just meant why not try to make the visuals as interesting and good as the story, if that's the intent of your using Poser?

Because there's a tradeoff in quality vs quantity that has to be considered.

It's one thing if you can devote a lot of time to that one image to get it juuust right. It's quite another when you have to put out mulltiple images in a restricted timeframe and simply don't have the time to focus to make each one as perfect as you possibly can.

To use examples from other media, you don't expect an SF or fantasy weekly TV series to have the same quality of special effects as a movie in the same setting: they don't have the same budget, and more importantly they can't spend a year doing the SFX for a single episode. The cheap-ass monster Supershark vs Snotopus movies on SyFy have laughable effects, but that's what the budget and time allows (not to mention the number of people working on it and the infrastructure they have).

I know artists who do Poser/DAZ work for various webcomics and such who can do absolutely beautiful work, but you wouldn't know it from the webcomic because they can't spend the time on it. If it takes two days to set up and render one image to the quality they have the skill to do (assuming it isnt' a full-time job and they're doing it in their otherwise free time), but you need to produce 15 or so images a week, something's gotta give.

It's something a lot of people doing professional 3D portfolios often miss. Sure, that's a beautiful piece of modelling and texturing and lighting and rendering that took you a month to do. Show me what you can get done in three days, because for a lot (most?) professional work, that's a more realistic type of thing you're going to face.

AND that is where the premade models come in.

TIME constraints.

Also I find it abit ironic, in this thread the snitch about "modeling" to "sculpting"....I do not do animations.  My work is purely for stills.

That being said, zbrush/(smaller brother) sculptris is modeling.  But even in that aspect the snobbering shows up.

And it is snobbery. When one side is looking down on the other for which ever reason(be it a pedantic need to point out edges etc) or whether someone has "made an image from the ground up"..its snobbery.

It also works against the community as it (tries) to make others feel bad about what they do. It attempts to make people go "well what is the use"...it works to some extent. Which is sad.

Ill put out there again...

"I hate the terms low end and high end, they're all just tools, some are better at certain tasks than others. I see all of us artists as one big community, regardless of what software we choose to use or what sort of job we have." Pixars-Neil Blevins: April, 2013

If a PROFESSIONAL like Neil Blevins can see it...why cant all those other people looking down their nose cant?******

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Quote - Sculpting is not modeling.

Using sculptris/zbrush is modeling.

Quote - DarkElegance : If you realy wanted to learn all of it & rigs ,
Think ya might want to give Blender a try.
Blender has sculpting built in to it like zBrush also.

After ya get it ,ya get a lot faster.

 

me and blender have been doing rounds lately. I am determined to get -=something=- out of it..anything...other then a cube LOL.

With scultpris "beast" came out quickly...it was painting it that took ages. It was  HUGE and I had to keep taking the count down so I could get it into paint mode or it would crash.

I want to rig him but...I am not so sure it would work.  http://digitalartofdarkelegance.daportfolio.com/gallery/851317#2 this was beast before I started to reduce him.

I DID finally get to paint him but I lost allot of detail in the face(wrinkles around the snout, scales across his face, cracks in the bone structure of the head) I did try and salvage it with displacement maps but it wasnt as crisp and nice).

I have seen wonderful stuff come out of blender and am determined to learn it =.=

I can make my own cloths now via MD...all I have to do it now get my own wee beasties on my own! then I can RULE THE WORLD....hold on ...sorry wrong topic.

ANYWAY.

"beastie" is part of a scene I have worked on. One demon queen complete with robes and staff+horns. A throne with faces on it...the dias(really that took no skill at all stacking primitives and tweeking them out) I am just getting other bits an bobs done for me to be happy with it.

Quote - /moderation off

Can we PLEASE put down the whips and let this poor pony pass? This issue REALLY HAS been beaten to death over and over and over and over...

/moderation on

I think there is a piece of hoof left that hasnt had a wack :P

Quote - just for the LULZ:

try to imagine you actually WERE able to do an image from the ground up - all the modelling, rigging, texturing, compositing and lighting and whatnot.

you WOULD be a little relenting on that Poser and Studio users, would you?

be honest! :biggrin:

actually...I started to work in sculptris so that I could have that experience. To make something from a blob up, to then paint it, etc...(not able to rigg yet...YET). I thought I would find some holy grail of digital art. I ...didnt. I have appreciation for the work that goes in. I have appreciation for the technical aspect of -real- modelers...BUT I didnt find it any more pleasing or satisfying then if I opened poser and used a model. It was not the holy grail that it has been portrayed as. I am -still- working on "completely done my -me-" image...and you know what? I have to force myself to keep going back to it due to it being a drag(it was exciting at first. But 'beast' the creature I made has really been a time-eater. It can be seen in one of my portfolios in DA). While in the mean time I can put out a handful of good images.

Particularly as I know "high end artists" that use premade models. Studios use premade models...so I am unsure how it is viable to "put people down" for using pre-made ANYTHING.

I use premade paints when I paint traditional...I do not stretch my own canvas...I do not make my own brushes.

When I work with jewelry, I buy premade wire...I do not make my own. I use pre-cut stones. I do not cut my own(I know how, but SERIOUSLY? why? when its easier for me to purchase them?). I do not twist my own thread...

I do not raise my own cow for leather work, I do not slaughter it, stretch and tan the hide... I purchase it all done for me to short cut all the other steps.

WHY should digital work be any different?

EVERYONE does it for something in their life. EVERYONE. Be it for art, for cooking, for DIY....we all use pre-made materials.

Quote - > Quote - Some professional artists still laugh derisively at users of Smith Micro's Poser software (include users of DAZ Studio for the sake of this discussion). 

 

The Quality or not of a work is proportional to the talent of the artist, any software is only a tool,and if some artist still laugh derisively , honestly, ¿Is it important for someone?

This post makes me wish I could "like" the post

Quote -

you can have fun and raise the bar, as they say. I too, do not understand why someone wouldnt want to improve their work, to grow, to learn new skills.

I think many do want to improve, I know I do, but the hobbyist has to start somewhere.  If they are writing a story and wait until the illustrations/renders are the quality of Toy Story, and the like, a large proportion of them will never complete their first book.  Many may not be looking to go professional but produce something that is for thier family and friends and upload a few renders to show what they are doing.  OK some will try to make it a polished professional publication, just as many try for photorealistic renders but Poser covers a wide field.  Mediocre renders will always be part of Poser but looking at the Poser 2012/2014 galleries shows how the bar has been lifted by better software, just don't expect the snobs to change their views any time soon.

I was agreeing with you.o_0

We all started with "bad poser renders". A good portion started out as hobbiest and learned, improved and some moved to more.

I know when I started I barely could run a puter. I -never- thought I would be able to do something like a cloth symo. Never in a million years.NEVER thought I could make anything in a program like sculptris. I remember very vividly saying "I'll never be able to model"(do not get me wrong Now I have to learn to rig them to be able to move..but slowly I am getting there)

I just do not understand those that do not wish to move forward.

I am not meaning to pro...but just new skills, better skills

Quote - "What if Toy Story was put out with bad poser 3 lighting, and horrible, clunky animation?  Would it have been nearly as successful?"

What??  Toy Story???  If you do cg for a living then by all mean use Toy Story as a yard stick for your own work if it makes you feel good.  But for a hobbyist that's a patently ridiculous notion.

" I just don't get why someone wouldn't take the time to make the art as good as the story."

Because they're hobbyists and not doing cg for a living.  I'd much rather do several hundred "mediocre" renders than a dozen "perfect" ones because my only intent is to have fun.

you can have fun and raise the bar, as they say. I too, do not understand why someone wouldnt want to improve their work, to grow, to learn new skills.

GUH I went to edit my post and cant...so...

One thing I would like to point out..is that some places do change their idea about it. Look at Epilogue. I use to have rants upon rants with them. They really didnt like poser work at all. Slowly, poser work started to get in more and more.  Its not "poser work" people have an issue with...its poser work that has issues, that they have a problem with. Bad lighting, bad posing, bad joints, flat work, and we all know the "bad" poser work. No need to pussy foot around it. At one time or another we have all done it too.

Go to DA and at any time during the day you will see it. the "bad poser soft porn" as my fiance calls it. THAT stuff is what gives "poser" a bad name.

People like RGUS,elianeck(at DA) KassidiKeys(no way you can say her work isnt art)...Their work raises the bar.  I doubt they get the "its not real art". There is no denying their work is -art- and very -real-.

"I hate the terms low end and high end, they're all just tools, some are better at certain tasks than others. I see all of us artists as one big community, regardless of what software we choose to use or what sort of job we have." Pixars-Neil Blevins: April, 2013

The issue of poser work not being artistic enough, not "real" is ancient. its not going to go away either from what I can see. The best thing to do, is prove them wrong when they say its not "real".

Quote - How do MD clothes stand up to making them conformable?

I do not know. I had thought of asking someone to make the marie antoinette dress conformable but....

Quote - Well, I admit I haven't bought any clothes for a while either, especially since I've learned to make my own in Blender. But Blender was free and it also has a cloth simulator, Although I don't know if you can import other meshes and clotherize them. It'd be interesting to find out.

The thing I like most about MD though is how easily it does things that I struggle with in Blender, like doing gathers, and pleats, and details like that.

MD is fast and easy. You can make a full wardrobe in a day. Complex outfits too.