No I don't think we do disagree on much Soulhuntre, perhaps just in ways of expressing thoughts. :) I didn't say that the tool wasn't used in pro-level production. It has been used for positional realisation in Jet Li's "The One" and in a couple other movies for rapid display of actor and camera placements and what that appearance may be like. It's entirely possible that it's employed elsewhere in other production houses for similar tasks. The software itself isn't - in my opinion - above amateur level and it's lack of integration into pro-level apps is sad and a gross error. I didn't say it wasn't used be professionals though. :) To be honest I would class it as an entry level app. Simply because a complete newbie can open the package and do things with it without ever touching the manual or asking for help in a forum. Unlike certain other applications which almost demand the user reads the manual at length before they can use the tools provided. That has been a mark of Metacreations applications for some years - their simplicity and ease of use, aimed primarily it seems at the amateur and home user level. Poser is not trying - at least it appears to be trying with the integration of the new tools - to become more professional and certainly I'll agree with you that the tools now are not entry level as there's far more to them that precludes a newbie being able to just click and create. But the program still misses the pro level in many aspects. Again, not arguing with you because we patently do agree on many of these things, just adding a few more pennies from my thoughts. :) I will agree with Pro/Pro-Am "users" but I excuse me while I disagree that the program qualifies, it might soon though. :)

Having said that, I don't think the normals on export is an option in Poser 4, but it is in UV mapper

I do. :) In answer to post 3, I've not seen any difference in the way my files behave in Bryce 4/5 Vue 3/4, Poser, Softimage XSI, Cinema 4d or Messiah. Dunno what normals do, but I remove them as a matter of course because it makes the file size much smaller.

Not quite Soulhuntre. You see, Poser is a development tool, not a stand alone pro-level app. Features expected at even entry level pro are not present. On top of this, Curious Labs missed the boat completely by excluding export filters TO pro level applications with which they could have marketed Poser to the pro users as a very valid and able plugin. But they didn't. They tried to add pro tools and keep it an amateur app - no doubt with a view to adding another Pro Pack style "extra" later. Losing that export compatibility offered by P4 Pro Pack is going to hurt more than the errors currently inherent in the program. To quote one reviewer. With the Pro Pack, Curious introduced plugins for 3DS Max, Lightwave, Cinema 4D and Maya. None of the plugins (nor Eons Mover 4) work with Poser 5, nor is there an alternative solution at the moment. This is by far and away the greatest impediment to anyone considering upgrading. If you depend on integration with those programs, your best bet is to stick with version four - or at least keep hold of your old copy when you upgrade. True enough, you can export scenes, complete with hair and cloth transformations but procedural textures are lost. There are more than enough fantastic new features to justify buying Poser 5, but it still feels like a work in progress. In six months to a year, when the bugs are ironed out and new plug ins written, it'll be a much better program. It's unfortunately that I can't post the whole review here because of copyright as it makes interesting reading. Summary of that review is Pros: Extensive new feature set, Better rendering - Greatly improved interface. Cons: Worse third party program interaction - Ultra slow rendering - Some features poorly or inadequately implemented. The reviewer tactfully didn't mention the registration process or whether their version was crash prone. Perhaps as an evaluation for review they didn't have to register it and the program wasn't as complete as the release version. I don't know. But essentially, no, Poser is not at the Pro level category or even really at Pro-Am category, it doesn't have the compatibility/export capability to exist at that level. Not even to touch on some of the other things such as OpenGL previewing etc which is much faster than even the Poser 4 render preview settings. and doesn't preclude you working on the figure while waiting for the render and hoping you remember which bit to fix once it's gone through. etc etc etc.... It's still very much an amateur application waiting for pro integration capabilities with some "poorly or inadequately implemented" pro level tools.

Or in one review, recommended that people wait up to a year before purchasing... That's gotta hurt.

I've saved this story to my hard drive Jack, and will read it to my children regularly. LOL Seriously though, nicely written, the parallels are interesting. :)

You recall correctly Jackson, that is what Mr. Cooper said they were doing, although framework and ground are similar in interpretation they could be taken to mean different things - such as "we're working from the Poser 4 framework and bolting things onto it." Whatever, there are lots of things said in this very forum by certain personalities that have since transpired to be, shall we say, transient and inaccurate.

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=439015

Steve Cooper:
It may have been 2+ years since Poser's last release, but from the very start Curious Labs has always been about Poser and putting systems in place to develop and deliver the product. We do have to create other products though, one (as cool as Poser is) won't carry us. That said, we've been working on that next release of Poser for a long time, from the framework up, and in the process, stoking a few other irons in the fire so we aren't a one-trick publishing pony.

I've spent thousands of dollars at my local computer store but don't get any incentives. Same with the book store, the supermarket, the off-license, the garage where I buy my fuel, the utility companies that charge me for gas and electricity... Funny thing life isn't it?

ACD? Erm, no, probably not. :) "You see but you do not observe." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The Scandal of Bohemia Hate to leave people in suspenders for too long. :) ACDC? One of the best rock bands to come out of Australia. Never quite liked them as much after they lost the original lead singer. and finally... So may the outward shows be least themselves: The world is still deceived with ornament. In law, what plea so tainted and corrupt But, being seasoned with a gracious voice, Obscures the show of evil? In religion, What damned error, but some sober brow Will bless it and approve it with a text, Hiding the grossness with fair ornament? There is no vice so simple but assumes Some mark of virtue on his outward parts. Merchant of Venice, Shakespeare.

the Doyle? ... the Doyle? Heathen. :)

Nice one April. Not the one I was thinking of, but nevertheless a good one. :)

Looks around, scratches head and wanders off into the sunset chuckling... Arthur Conan Doyle would have been proud of this place.

No Jackson. I have fairly good information that they all had to wear a full body condom and likewise protect their computers before introducing BugWare 5 to their systems. I also have fairly good information that the cd came in and was required to be left in a cd condom so that "things" wouldn't transfer between system and disk... There is a vicious rumour going around at the moment, that some people didn't leave the cd in the special cd condom and have now caught anti-social bugs from irresponsible use of an unprotected cd. :) Now. Where did I put my meds....

SimonWM. Adobe only produce Atmosphere which is a 3d web realisation tool not, as far as I know, a cgi development tool (like Poser) and requires the use of external applications such as Avatar Lab in order to be used properly. I'm not aware of anything else 3d from them. Microsoft produce no 3d Applications at all. So, seeing as you're picking a hole in my answer, how's about you use relevant examples yourself rather than two of the largest software manufacturers around? Last time I checked, Adobe were primarily 2D graphics, and Microsoft were also primarily 2d based with Office, Windows etc etc. No, I'm not counting games in this. Unless of course I missed something and they both now produce 3d development software? So. If you want answers relevant to something, perhaps you should generalise less yourself. As for McNeel. They hardly set a precedent did they? Microsoft did it from early days with Windows allowing a very broad spectrum of users to "test" the software before dumping it on an ususpecting public. Several other companies also allow broad based beta testing. Curious most likely did not have the time to indulge in something like that - doesn't mean they couldn't have though. Every company "could" do that. Most choose not to. JCleaver: You're right, some people have gone over the edge, perhaps because of complete frustration. As was pointed out elsewhere the majority or people on this site are not technically savvy, they're hobbyists and artists. The Pooser threads were not looking for help, just apparently an angry person venting. But, I think you'll agree that they were somewhat unique and it hasn't been repeated since.

you would need to have the resources of Adobe or Microsoft in order to have something that stable Sorry, that's utter rubbish. Winzip. Paint Shop Pro. Rhinoceros (McNeel) and a multitude of other programs from small production houses that are perfectly stable and almost completely error free. As for people who have no problem getting shouted at. When you look at the number of threads where someone has a problem with poser 5 and some smart alek posts "I don't have any problems at all" with NO helpful suggestions I have to wonder WHY they bothered posting. The person starting complaint threads wants a solution to the problem NOT some prat telling them they're obviously an idiot with a crap computer. Which "works fine for me, no problems here" indicates. Sorry for the rant but it's getting a bit bloody annoying. Reiss might have sounded like a CL apologist with some of his comments but at least with his input a solution to the texture problem was found. But posts stating "I don't have any problems" are NOT constructive, NOT helpful, NOT finding a solution WHY there's no problem and basically rather insulting. Fine. So Poser 5 works like a dream. Skating along at lightspeed without a single glitch. So rather than gloating - as some seem to be doing - how's about exploring WHY? Maybe there'd be less shouting if that was done. Oh well... perhaps the example set by Reiss will catch on and we'll see more help and less gloat.