EClark1894 posted at 4:49AM Sun, 01 December 2019 - #4371875

consumer573 posted at 4:21AM Sun, 01 December 2019 - #4371870

So, in a nod to Ohki, the phone home routine just makes it more of a hassle for legit users the same way raising the price of the software does. And, again, Poser is not a stand alone program. It really depends upon the artist content, and vice versa. Over the long term, why on earth would anyone continue buying hundreds or thousands of dollars of artist content if they had an unreliable program that could quit any day?

Well, one ansewr: If you're online it's transparent to you so you don't care. But then one day you encounter a glitch, maybe you bought a new computer or ipad, or maybe you're in the middle of working on something and exicted to go finish it...and then can't access Poser when you expect to. You go through hoops to get it re-started, maybe half a day, maybe a week, you have to PROVE you're a legit owner (where is that serial number? why doesn't the help desk write back? should I wait or go out now?) and it strikes you how much you've spent as a Dazaholic, or Renderhead, or whatever, and you come to a conclusion: that you're sooo stupid to have bought all that content that could be cut off so easily.

In the current business envrionment, that's when you slap your head and say "I should've gone DAZ!"

So I fight for Poser.

For the record, piracy, even in the real world, does exist. I know people who have stolen cable TV, water, and even electricity. They "jailbreak" Roku to get free streaming. It doesn't make it right.

BTW, gate, I do have you listed in my Directory as a vendor owned website. Considering how you obviously feel about paying for stuff, do you pay for that website, or is it pirated?

Earl, I'm saying I feel bondware is trying to set up a dam to curtail piracy. I believe you can spend that effort, but this is a niche market. Direct the flow rather than set up a dam to get a bigger market for artist products which is where I believe Bondware's real business model is supposed to be, isn't it?

BTW Please don't goad Gate. :) He's passionate.

One final comment. Nails60 in post 4371759 on page 2 asked me a provocative question on Piracy. I was discussing the Poser software, but there is a separate issue. Whatever happens with Poser software, artist content needs to be fervently, if not viciously protected from Piracy. If you're going to set up a policing issue I feel that's really where it should be. It might be that Daz and Bondware sometime somewhere set up a joint team to curb free copying or trade of artist content. Keeping price low and volume high of content and software will make this easier. Creating things you can do (3D printing) with artist content will help. That means pump out that Daz and Poser software.

I guess the bottom line and answer to the question I initially posted, is that there IS a kill swtich. Flexible, but still there. That means if Poser and Daz permanently go separate ways, when it becomes obvious I'm investing in content for which there is no alternative to run but on unreliable Poser, I have to limit my investment. Right now I'm mostly V4 characters which work on both. And static content which can be transferred through OBJs. I didn't do Daz gen because they didn't work on Poser, and as of this minute I don't do DAZ. If LaFemme won't run on Daz, and if Bondware continues this kill switch nonsense, I have to think about future content purchases very hard.

So, in a nod to Ohki, the phone home routine just makes it more of a hassle for legit users the same way raising the price of the software does. And, again, Poser is not a stand alone program. It really depends upon the artist content, and vice versa. Over the long term, why on earth would anyone continue buying hundreds or thousands of dollars of artist content if they had an unreliable program that could quit any day?

Well, one ansewr: If you're online it's transparent to you so you don't care. But then one day you encounter a glitch, maybe you bought a new computer or ipad, or maybe you're in the middle of working on something and exicted to go finish it...and then can't access Poser when you expect to. You go through hoops to get it re-started, maybe half a day, maybe a week, you have to PROVE you're a legit owner (where is that serial number? why doesn't the help desk write back? should I wait or go out now?) and it strikes you how much you've spent as a Dazaholic, or Renderhead, or whatever, and you come to a conclusion: that you're sooo stupid to have bought all that content that could be cut off so easily.

In the current business envrionment, that's when you slap your head and say "I should've gone DAZ!"

So I fight for Poser.

movida posted at 3:19AM Sun, 01 December 2019 - #4371812

Just as a point of fact: I know quite a few people who have had their initial introduction to one software program or another through using a pirated version and are now paying users for decades.

To quote movida, again, I agree with the above. I may be dating myself, but I remember years ago we had the Adobe Illustrator package and the upgrades were getting pricey. There's no way you could buy and test all the packages (even then they were always like $399 even on sale) so someone gave my dad copies of Corel Draw2 floppys (yes, that's how long ago). We wound up buying the full version of Corel Draw 3 (which I still have complete with it's really well done manuals, and floppys transferred to dvd), and even though we don't do every upgrade cycle (maybe one in three) we're still legit Corel users to this day. Moreover that got us hooked on the Corel video Studio, too.

If it hadn't been for those floppys, I don't know. We probably would have found something open source. We would have dropped Adobe in any event. It just cost too much and we weren't professional users.

Nails60 posted at 2:16PM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371783

consumer573,

There is a difference between someone using a free program and someone using a paid for program for free. The latter is demonstrating that they do not believe that to be theft, or do not care, either way it still suggests they would have no qualms about using pirated content.

If you are suggesting Bondware giving away poser, that is entirely a different business model, but I would imagine initial losses could be significant before any increase in content sales appear.

I see your distinction. It was/is not my intent to get into an ethical argument. I do believe that the majority of people who are going to use Poser are ethical and would buy a legitimate copy of Poser if they felt the price was fair. I also believe that the business situation as it exists suggests that if people felt the price of Poser was unfair they would be more likely to just download a legitimate version on DAZ. So my conclusion is that any leakage of Poser software due to piracy would be rather small compared to other industries like music and movies. If the success of this niche business game is as I believe, namely marketshare, then I believe more would be won by getting as many copies of Poser out there as possible rather than spending monies and personnel time policing it and dealing with the effects of kill switches.

In my personal case, should my game developer die and there is still a kill switch in Poser software, that is the end of the line for Poser with me. I'm going DAz. There I will be legitimate and not have a capricious software to deal with. I'm fed up with it. And I already own Poser 11.

movida posted at 2:07PM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371763

consumer573 posted at 7:46AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371757

movida posted at 7:26AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4368355

Mythocentric posted at 6:16AM Sat, 26 October 2019 - #4368349

Hi Rhia474.

(1) "... However, that purchase came with impediments in the form of SM's unfortunate decision to impose its 'phone-home' feature which I believe was originally applied with the intention of putting certain versions of Poser on a subscription-only basis. That feature has been perpetuated and inherited by Bondware. Not an ideal situation and clearly a feature which is detested by many as countless posts here can attest both long before and after Bondwares purchase. That situation is further exacerbated when that feature is not only retained but extended from approximately once a month to every nine days with the added threat of purchasers losing access to the program they have purchased if they do not comply. I would remind you that we are talking about a permanent license here and that has a meaning in legal terms, in fact, at some point in the future could result in a legal challenge being mounted. (I should insert at this point that this is something I have verified with my lawyers, not with the intention of doing so but as a hypothetical test in order to be sure of my facts!) ..."

(2) ** Agreed.** In addition, you'd think that the existence of a viable alternative that is not crippled by phone home would lend itself to a little "eye opening" on the part of the new owners. I do not use any Adobe products newer than CS6 (the last non phone home), I won't use Substance for the same reason. I don't care what app it is nor how much I love it, if they go "subscription" (i.e., analyzing, location, perusing your personal computer, collecting personal data etc., the truth of it) I'm out. Period."

(3) I never buy subscription software unless (a) business requires it and I can make more money on the software than it costs for the subscription [think Adobe's near monopoly of the professional graphic illustrator's market] (b) it is subscribe to own, making the monthly cost very low, and the software permanently available as long as I have a system to run it. Poser is unusual in that it is not normally run as a stand alone software but instead needs the content that Renderosity provides. It should NEVER be a subscription software with a kill switch. That's just terrible, terrible long term planning for possible short term gain.

If poser had started with a kill switch or as subscription I would not have even considered buying the software or any of the content that it requires. My first 3D experience would have been DAZ all the way.

I'd like to know how my name got included when I never replied to this post?????? I've replied on this thread but not to this post....

Movida, I quoted your post number 4368655 on page one. When the paragraphs ran together I wanted to make sure it was clear there were 3 different parties talking so I numbered them 1, 2, and 3. Otherwise it looked like my commentary was part of speaker number 2. At least in the preview draft section.

I can't edit so I'll correct. I goofed on the Poser analogy above. I meant there was no kill siwtch, not that it was free, though often it was discounted to $99 or less. I think one upgrade version may have been $67 or $69 which is very inexpensive. My Daz statement is correct.

Nails60 posted at 8:02AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371756

Do you really believe that someone who doesn't pay for the program will come and buy content rather than looking for pirated content online?

The short answer is emphatically "Yes". That is the current Daz model which has surpassed Poser. That was the Poser model before Poser fell out of favor. I slao believe that is the way things will have to go in order for Poser to prosper.

movida posted at 7:26AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4368355

Mythocentric posted at 6:16AM Sat, 26 October 2019 - #4368349

Hi Rhia474.

(1) "... However, that purchase came with impediments in the form of SM's unfortunate decision to impose its 'phone-home' feature which I believe was originally applied with the intention of putting certain versions of Poser on a subscription-only basis. That feature has been perpetuated and inherited by Bondware. Not an ideal situation and clearly a feature which is detested by many as countless posts here can attest both long before and after Bondwares purchase. That situation is further exacerbated when that feature is not only retained but extended from approximately once a month to every nine days with the added threat of purchasers losing access to the program they have purchased if they do not comply. I would remind you that we are talking about a permanent license here and that has a meaning in legal terms, in fact, at some point in the future could result in a legal challenge being mounted. (I should insert at this point that this is something I have verified with my lawyers, not with the intention of doing so but as a hypothetical test in order to be sure of my facts!) ..."

(2) ** Agreed.** In addition, you'd think that the existence of a viable alternative that is not crippled by phone home would lend itself to a little "eye opening" on the part of the new owners. I do not use any Adobe products newer than CS6 (the last non phone home), I won't use Substance for the same reason. I don't care what app it is nor how much I love it, if they go "subscription" (i.e., analyzing, location, perusing your personal computer, collecting personal data etc., the truth of it) I'm out. Period."

(3) I never buy subscription software unless (a) business requires it and I can make more money on the software than it costs for the subscription [think Adobe's near monopoly of the professional graphic illustrator's market] (b) it is subscribe to own, making the monthly cost very low, and the software permanently available as long as I have a system to run it. Poser is unusual in that it is not normally run as a stand alone software but instead needs the content that Renderosity provides. It should NEVER be a subscription software with a kill switch. That's just terrible, terrible long term planning for possible short term gain.

If poser had started with a kill switch or as subscription I would not have even considered buying the software or any of the content that it requires. My first 3D experience would have been DAZ all the way.

quietrob posted at 6:47AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4367494

I think a reasonable person would think it requires online activation, that is fine. Most programs require some type of basic registration. I also think a reasonable person, unless otherwise informed that I need to be online from time to time, would believe that it would work fine offline. Forever.

I do not remember being informed that I needed an internet connection for continued use of Poser. Even if it's every once in a while, then I should be informed. Were any of you informed of this requirement?

Moreover, the basic question I asked a while ago still hasn't been answered.

Why do we need to phone home at all, after the initial registration?

My Point exactly. This is a small community. Anyone that gets poser and tries to use it will go to Renderosity to buy something. Even if a percentage is 'pirated' by starving artists money will still come into Renderosity if the characters and character support are viable. The more people who have poser, the more people will come to Renderosity. It can be argued that the long-term strategy of this approach has already been successfully applied by DAZ, a former Poser wannabe now the one to beat.

EClark1894 posted at 6:09AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4367467

Hmm, just wondering. Aside from the non-kill switch thingie, what would Studio offer you that you can't get from Poser? I ask because if the kill switch were the only thing, why are you spending money on Poser anyway?

Earl, I'm answering a question that was asked by you early on; I haven't read all of this thread yet. I really like Poser. I had my eye on it starting with Poser 3, bought my first version at 5 and really started getting into it when 7 came out with a joint package with Shade. It seemed like a match made in heaven - a modeling program, a character program, and access to stores that sell quality 3d Models at affordable prices (Shade at the time was very smart and put out a book with a CLEAR tutorial. They had you make a table and a vase and a few other useful items. Following that step-by step I was able to model a lot of things quickly and they also had import/export support for Poser Figures - I have Lightwave now and wish there was a clearer more useful tutorial for some practical items rather than their dumb overly simplified truck.). I tried DAZ at the time, but it was a clunky second rate program compared to Curious Lab's Poser, which also had multiple books written about it. In the intervening years Smith Micro purchased Poser, but really didn't know what to do with it. I met with their team once when the company was giving presentations in Manhattan and tried to explain it to them. But they treated Poser and the Store like it was a standard piece of Oracle software, not like part of the artist community that it is. They didn't get that artists think a bit differently than your standard coders. To their credit Smith Micro didn't just shut it down and I'm hoping that Renderosity turns out to be a good partner for the software now.

In short, there will be a learning curve for DAZ. I'm semi-resigned that things will probably go that way here and I will become a Dazaholic. I know a good chunk of Poser without thinking and in my spare time have been having fun. Fun ceases when I get the kill switch message and I have to spend a day or two getting the thing up and running. Obviously not a full day in directed hours, but in RT by the time you send a help message, by the time someone gets around to answering, by the time you answer their questions... you get the idea.

I really feel that the key to the game here in a business sense is marketshare. Using Poser software as the camera versus film; the razor blade versus the shaver. One thing Daz is doing that Rendo has not is make use of their full library. Rendo obsoletes things and puts them on clearance. But this whole thing is still new. Someone that hasn't seen the early characters is still happy to use them because they are simpler and take less effort to render. When you're starting how important is weight mapping anyway.

I'm writing too much, but hopefully you see that I really want this to succeed and I really, really believe the kill switch for this particular business at this time is a bad idea that takes a lot of company time figuring out how to do policing rather than developing the software. For a $250 program upgrade I'd be willing to lease for $25 a month for 10 months until I "own." Or put down $50 or $100 and pay the balance on time. Also, if I stop, I should be able to pick up without penalty until the software is 'paid off". You see, $250 is not a lot for one item. But that $250 in a budget means it has to come out of character purchases or other software upgrades that might be more important for day-to-day life.

I'm hopeful, but also disappointed. The kill switch has been a real hassle under Smith Micro. I really thought Rendo would get rid of it. I can still run my older versions of Poser, those that are the pre-Smith Micro debacle.

I don't see what purpose a kill switch serves in a community like this, especially when competing against DAZ which is free. I'm not completely sorry I updated to Game Developer from Poser Pro 2014, but logging on to see the sudden planned death message unless I contort to keep it alive has been a large negative. I paid almost $200 ($189?) to buy 11.1 as an early adopter and I refuse to load it.

I think I would want a permanent lease on the machine before I upgrade to 11.2. I generally have not gone back to load old software on new machines, unless the old software had some features that were discontinued in newer versions, so the permanent lease on the machine would probably be an acceptable compromise.

The only way I would accept a kill switch is (a) if there were no other software alternative and I needed it professionally [think adobe] or if it were a "lease to buy", which means I couldn't afford to buy it outright, but once I did I'd be free of the kill switch from then on.

I'm thinking of switching to DAZ if my 'permanent license' on Game Developer becomes not so permanent.

For the moment my physical shipment of 11.1 will have to stay in its DVD case.

What about the Library and LIbrary search Poser 11 vs Poser2014 Game Developer? I heard 11 had problems and wasn't as good. Is that still the case (if it ever was)?

I have poser pro 2014 game developer. In theory I have a permanent license. I hope I can keep it? I like the Library and Firefly renderer suits for what I'm doing.

Couldn't Bondware just have removed the Kill switch? I'm eventually going to have to load another version of Poser anyway (It had better NOT require web check-in) when I upgrade to windows 10.