Yeah, I liked Legume's better also... but then again, I usually do. And Jack's response is not a semi-cop-out, it's a total cop-out. And note that Jack now claims to have inside information, but says he promised kupa he wouldn't reveal it... it's a very convenient position. But it is why he's now trying to pretend the story wasn't about CL, because the implication is that the story is based on this information that he is sworn not to reveal. So why write the story and put it in this forum in the first place? There are plenty of other sites that cater to fiction writers. There is even a writer's forum at this site, but Jack chose to put it here. But I thank Jack for his evasive non-defense of his cheap innuendo, for he has revealed it as such more effectively than I could have by myself. Which, incidentally, is why I noted his disappearance in my prior msg...I suspected he would rise to the bait.

Jackson: I might prefer that CL used the Windows API, but that was just as true of P4 as it is of P5. And while I would tend to put that more in the "klunky" category, than the "outdated" category (since the Windows API was always there to be used), my understanding is that historically, this has to do with cross-platform issues. Also, your last msg makes my point. You don't know what, if anything Jack knows about the stiuation. I would submit that if Jack had any inside info, he would be sharing it. Jack has been called many things over the years; "shy" is not one of them. Yet he has presented nothing (and, I note, chosen to disappear from this thread). Again, I agree with some of your complaints, and I think reasonable people can differ over some of the others. But Jack taking a cutesy shot at CL's business plan when he doesn't even know what it was or is, strikes me as cheap. His story "looks" true to you; I already posted a very different version that could be true. I try to base my opinions on evidence; others are free not to, and often do. CyberStretch: "Was P4PP not a separate purchase and gave CL additional cash inflow? Therefore, calling it P4.5 or whatever would not have accomplished much more than what it did." No, if CL had marketed it as P4.5, more people would have bought it, as demonstrated in part by the greater sales of P5 in relation to Pro Pack. Marketing something as an optional add-on simply will not generate the volume of sales you would get marketing it as the new base product. Had CL treated ProPack as P4.5, they could have charged everyone more to upgrade to P5, because the P4PP people had to get a deal since they subsidized the development of a number of the new features in P5. Alternatively, CL could have charged more for people who did not buy P4.5 to upgrade to P5 on the ground that you were really buying 2 upgrades. Plus, the expectation level would not have been as high, because everyone wouldn't have waited as long for the new version of Poser. The product cycle would have looked much more like the regular, incremental upgrading that so many other apps (Photoshop, for example) go through. The only reason I even dipped my toe in the pool of second guessing was to point out that one of the implied theses of Jack's parable -- that CL was eager to put out these other products (at the expense of Poser) "just to make more money" -- is readily disprovable. If CL had treated ProPack as P4.5, Jack's whole analogy falls apart, because then the man isn't neglecting the horse.

Jackson: Perhaps I am more cynical than most, but I was under the impression that the CL crew working on P5 was largely the same crew that worked on P4, so it didn't surprise me that some of the things that bug me about P4 (some of which I would classify as bugs, some not) reappeared in the first P5 release, whether they reused code or just the coders. I would agree with you as far as stability issues go. Reusing code in itself wouldn't bother me in the slightest...to the extent that it works. I am not (and have not been) sure what you mean about an "outdated" interface; klunky I understand as meaning not easy to work with, and that can be a matter of taste. I also have a hard time reconciling the "pretty blanket" metaphor with the complaints about the interface, unless you're referring to the box art. However, the complaints you mention are only a part of what Jack was driving at, which was a broad critique of CL's business plan. And it is that sort of critique, absent any detailed knowledge of the situation, to which my original post was addressed. In thinking about the recent tumult, it occurred to me that if CL had called ProPack Poser 4.5, they could have decreased the anticipation level for P5 and increased CL's profits. With additional bucks from P4.5, they could have spent more time on P5. I'll bet just about every CL employee has had that thought in the last month or two...but now I'm the one second guessing CL's business strategy. Must be catching;-)

"What happened in the past with Willow and Grey and others is long past. I believe this story is an excellent metaphor for what we are living through right now." I know you have had problems with P5 and sympathize. Of course, my point was not to revisit those past controversies, but note that in every one of them, a great many people had a great many opinions about them, almost always on the basis of hearsay. Jack's story is very nice, but if he had the actual facts to back up his underlying theory, he would have written non-fiction. To put it more bluntly, I rhetorically ask someone, anyone, to provide the data showing the percentage of P5 users that have had problems of the magnitude that you have experienced. Complaints in the forum are clearly not a scientific sample; we all know that people are more likely to make an effort to complain (and rightly so, because none of us expects to have the sort of problems you have had). Soulhuntre suggests it's a minority with problems, but I have no way of verifying that either. And to anticipate those who will respond that only CL has that data and the burden should be on them, I say that you would be proving my point. The non-CL members here simply do not have such information, and certainly don't know whether Jack's parable is an accurate metaphor. Want a specific example? In Jack's story: "Mr. Ripple and the man had an idea. If they could get other horses and expand the stables, they might be able to get more money. He and the owner of the horse worked hard together and began to expand their stables and get more horses. Both were really happy and had big dreams for their stables." How about this version instead: "Mr. Ripple liked the horse, but the man told him it wouldn't be in shape for another race for a couple of years. Mr. Ripple told the man he would like to help the man get the horse back on its hooves, but could not pay the man just to care for the horse for two years. So Mr. Ripple told the man he would give the man the money to care for the horse if the man would also raise other horses that could race and make money for them while the horse was being rehabilitated. The man had very mixed feelings about the situation, but Mr. Ripple was the only person interested in saving the horse from death. So he made the deal, and tried his best to raise other profitable horses, even though this dragged out the rehabilitation period for the horse." That's a different story, isn't it? Which one is a more accurate parable? I don't know, you don't know, and the man probably isn't going to incur the wrath of Mr. Ripple if mine is more accurate.

It is a story, but just a story. Many people have stories. Two people named Willow and Grey have a story; Jack knows who they are. A company called EdgeNet probably also has a story. Are their stories only stories? I don't know, and would never claim to know, because I was not actually involved in the situations that form the basis of their stories. I'm sure Jack has his versions of those stories, and I wouldn't claim to know if they were true either, and for the same reason. I want to make clear that I personally believe that over the years Jack has made very important contributions to the development of the community. For example, I was never one of those who had a visceral hatred of this site going commercial when it did. But I confess that I'm baffled as to why Jack of all people wants to issue this sort of veiled attack on CL, which does not require that he back any of it up with facts, but which does continue the sort of venomous exchange that filled these pages when he was running the place. I remember Jack posting messages in a very conciliatory, unifying sort of tone regarding these past controversies, so I am frankly stunned that he would want to jump into the middle of this one. I would no more offer an opinion on whether CL did the best that it could any more than I would speculate as to why Jack ended up going from EG and R'osity to starting the 3D Commune, to starting R'otica, to starting Animotions. I just don't have the information to render an informed opinion about it... and I would hope that maybe everyone else might recognize the same, or bring forth the evidence to support their opinions.

Actually, don't do that...just tried it myself and didn't find it. Must have been posted in the forum or been deleted from the gallery. I knew I should have bookmarked it.

Search the Poser gallery for "P5." I'm pretty sure I saw an early P5 render where someone did exactly this.

And I thought it was a self-portrait from before your P5 problems got fixed;-) BTW, very cool render.

Things will continue to improve...Vicky and Steph also seemed limited when they were new.

Not really my type, but different from Judy. I'm glad that you seem to be getting stuff done with P5;-)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=897165

I don't know that P5 has problems with Norton Anti-Virus or Roxio's CD stuff for sure, but the linked thread discusses the possibility, particularly with people running Win ME. And if you search the forum for Roxio, you will turn up other threads noting that a number of apps, including various anti-virus apps, AOL, and EZ CD Creator overwrite some of the standard MS system DLLs and drivers, which could be a source of some people's problems (and which, incidentally, would not be solved just by turning the app off during install). My guess would be that an anti-virus app by itself would generally not conflict with P5, because so many PCs come with one from the factory and any such conflict would also hamper CL's efforts for Content Paradise. But I have no definitive opinion on it because there are so many variables from system to system. It's a problem endemic to the software biz as it stands today. One of the other threads notes that a fair amount of this type of problem would have been solved if MS had structured its OSs differently (though it ocurs to me that if MS tried to make it difficult to change DLLs, some would have seen it as more evidence of their attemots to deter companies from developing apps that compete with MS apps).

As someone too cowardly to load P5 on my current PC (actually shopping for a new system), I am always careful to note in any discussion of P5 that there clearly are people who have serious usability problems that should be dealt with. And perhaps guilt over that caused CL to rush out the updater too soon also. On the other hand, to answer Spit's question, I think there are several reasons why people who have not had these problems with P5 post in the complaining threads. If they did not, the impression would be left that everyone has had problems, and accusations like Turtle's, that CL shipped knowing there were major bugs, would seem more plausible, given CL's admitted cash flow problem. Although CL has acknowledged that it became aware of certain non-critical bugs after the discs went into production (which is not unusual in the software biz), there is no evidence of which I am aware that CL knowingly shipped a product that would by and large not work on a large number of systems. That is tantamount to an accusation of fraud, and anyone who makes it really ought to think twice before doing so. Another reason why people respond to the complaint threads is that there has been a number of people who feel the need to vent their complaints, generally the same ones, on a daily or hourly basis. And a fair number of these complaints (and to be fair, I am not referring to Turtle's complaints on this point), are not complaints about actual, serious bugs, but were complaints about features that P5 did not include and was never advertised to include, criticisms of the renderer based on a complete ignorance of the fact that a more advanced renderer will simply take longer to render things than the old P4 renderer, or of the fact that the new renderer by necessity handles maps differently, and so on. It wastes my time to have to page through twice as many screens here every day, just to skip the usual rants from the usual suspects. I only occasionally post to the complaint threads to point out that those who I consider whiners do a disservice to those who actually have serious problems. Moreover, it is a two-way street. Open up a thread of people who are happy and excited about their well-functioning P5, and almost invariably, there will be posts from people who have problems, legit or otherwise. Such is the nature of a forum like this one. And when the discussion remains at least semi-civil, I think good things come from it. I, for one, in looking at new systems, will be careful to avoid apps that seem to conflict with P5, like Roxio's EZ CD Creator, and Norton Anti-Virus (both of which I have on my current system). Had I loaded P5 on my current sysytem and had problems, such info could have been a life-saver. That being said, I would add kudos to Dave-So for what seems to be a very good faith effort to overcome completely understandable frustration to work on getting his problems resolved. I am neither rolling in cash nor able to write P5 (or other software) off as a business expense myself, so I feel a certain degree of empathy on his account. And I hope that once it looks like any issues with the updater are completely ironed out that Turtle will give P5 another try, because the renders I've seen so far make it look more than worth it. At least you can take comfort in knowing that when I get a new system and put P5 on it, having written all of this, I will have some major problem, and you can all chant "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" in unison.

I know what you mean about Mongolian Poser 5... Attila is not much of an improvement on the P4 Dork. I'm hoping that DAZMongolia comes out with a more hi-res Genghis.

Estonia is a former Soviet republic, but the language is much closer to Finnish and the architecture much more European (in Talinn, anyway). BTW wasn't Congress passing a law against online philately?

Also, I'd check kupa's post on the 10/3 updater... I think the undo for expressions is one of the intems to be fixed.