A button invented To shoot at art, The topic is as he set But without good aim More of the same, An example of which I meant He's got it in his head That I stole his thread, Despite my words explaining Aimless button for attacks To 'whiz' on our backs, Then try to tell us its raining I didn't mean to offend you Hiram. Not at all. :(

Unbelievable..

Exactly Chuck. Thank you! My new handle is not to make a point, in fact (though based on recent events) it makes me smile and I hope others too. :)

No speculation to it, the reason was plainly stated. "...we concluded that one of the women in your image had genitalia that was decidedly pinker than the rest of her. and her privates looked rather swollen, so the implication was that she was aroused, .." Some (like I did) thought "arousal" was a ref. to a stimulated penis. I was mistaken. If we are going to discuss ways to report TOS violations then we need to know what one is as well.. so members can make proper reports and be informed for artistic purposes. You miss the point of why I post this but then I don't expect the lofty to grasp the purpose. Its not about a particular image, its about what the staff grades as TOS violations. This was a sample. Educated now?

Attached Link: http://www.thralldom.org/siteware/galview.mv?Member_Kinky_Art+ul6gPEeJs+1021659097

It could have been seen in that light but no contact however this nor the situation was sighted as the reason (as you read above).. defending my case is not why I am posting here. That's gone, over with, history, closed. I write here and copy/paste emails because Audre said I could and as a warning. The idea of a check box to report TOS violations is a good one but now we jave to know what IS a TOS violation and this is one of the things that are being looked at. The link above leads to the art in question as a SAMPLE. No axe to grind, I am not mad. Again, this is WHAT is being looked at and held up to the TOS - You SHOULD know so nobody else gets into trouble like I did. ** Fair warning that if you choose to look at it, you are leaving renderosity, they nor their reps. are not responsible if you become offended ** Warning... NUDITY/SITUATIONAL content in the link above.

hello again, just want to clarify a point that seems to be mis-interpreted by most folks... and here i will quote something i posted in a thread recently: an image that violates the TOS in the galleries is in no way tacit approval by the staff or management of Renderosity -- as is often inferred by members when they see such things. the ONLY reason that an image remains in the gallery that violates our TOS is that we are not aware of it at that time. also, we don't judge an image, it's message, or the member posting. we look at the RULES that are in place for this community and that is what we enforce, to the best of our ability. not everyone agrees with the decisions and on occasion, the group of mods may make a decision which the vocal part of the community has a problem with. we review these things on a case-by-case basis and act according to what we feel represents the TOS the best. as we find images that are 'iffy' or an image is brought to our attention, we compare the image to the TOS guidelines. if the group decides it's over the line, it goes. if there is enough of a doubt, we leave it. to address your question about your particular image, we concluded that one of the women in your image had genitalia that was decidedly pinker than the rest of her. and her privates looked rather swollen, so the implication was that she was aroused, (well, either that or she has an extremely painful case of hemorrhoids, which i don't think is the case here). thanks audre editor, renderosity magazine >> so you see.. it is appearence even on a female character. The piece in question, the character on the left is about to walk away (standing) remorsefully. Between her legs is a tiny bit of "pink" where it SHOULD be.. that was the issue. Is the pink swollen or not? Thus I ask are we going to ask ourselves "are the nipples firm or do they just look firm? Is she aroused or was there a wind? Is she cold?"

That's what I thought.. but I can attest that's not true. Copy/paste of email: hey sorry for the delay... not only is my isp acting up but today was particularly busy on the email help front sigh just wrapping up getting through my inbasket. okay, well, i rather torn here. i certainly do not want to start ANY conflict with any other website. each has it's specialty and IMO, there is room for everyone -- my preference is to live and let live. that being said, i see that there is a large discussion going on about how bad renderosity is. i take that rather personally, as i work very hard to keep things moving, and as even keeled as possible. we've got a phenominal staff of moderators and admins who work their asses off without so much as a thank you usually (and in fact most times they get attacked for doing their 'job') so i do admit to feeling more than a bit like dog-food after reading what these people said about us and i am not really happy about being the focus of such a discussion in the first place. if you feel you need to post this, please post EVERYTHING... including all the instant messages that Sipapu sent you AND your responses. let folks decide for themselves. i've included them here for your reference. finally, your handle DID ring a bell with me and now i do remember the controversy we dealt with in regards to your post... the one with the guy's finger coming dangeriously close to that woman's privates... here is a note i had to send out after MANY heated and irate correspondances with another member who wanted the image pulled for TOS violation. i think we lost the member after we wouldn't pull your image. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hello, thanks for taking the time to let us know what you think. we absolutly listen to what members have to say and think your opinion is important! first, if you see images that violate the nudity flag rule, PLEASE tell the moderator of that forum... or, tell ME. i will immediately address that! we have so many images to go through that often, groups of them slip through. this is not intentional. we rely on members to be our eyes and ears. regarding this image. even blown up this close, i still have to agree with the consensus of the staff that while this image treads dangerously close to violation, it stays on the 'legal' side. if only by a hair. the way i see the image, his hand is NOT in contact with her genatalia. his fingers are slipped between her thighs and in fact, in contact with her boots, not even her skin. his finger is well away from her privates, which, albeit a bit 'exposed', is within the 'rules' as they currently exist. my personal opinion on this piece, it's artistic merits, or even it's statement, are completely irrelevant. and i want you to understand that i HAVE to conclude that it does not violate the TOS. i do this in good concience and after quite a bit of deliberation. i hope that you wont take this personally. i also hope this wont keep you from enjoying the rest of what this community has to offer. we work very hard to administer the TOS evenly and judiciously. with membership soaring to 80 thousand recently, we have our hands full. hopefully our explanation will reassure you that we DO take this seriously, although we may not agree in this particular instance. thanks again for your input. audre ~~~~~~~~~~~ begin recent corresponances ~~~~~~~~~~~ Hello, Your image, "Piece Treaty (Nudity/Situational)," has been removed from the gallery because it is in violation of this portion of the TOS: "Posting Unacceptable Images which include; 1. Depictions of physical arousal or sexual acts." This is an official warning. In accordance with the TOS, a second event will result in "Forum Suspension for 1 or 7 days or Temporary Community ban for 3 or 7 days." Please try to take more care with such images. Your work is really very good, and it would be a shame if you were to be suspended or banned because of pictures like this. Feel free to IM me (easier for me than e-mail) if you have any questions about this situation. Sincerely, Sipapu Renderosity Moderator ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hello Lakota_Sarah, Earlier today I sent you an e-mail to notify you that I had removed an image from your gallery. However, that e-mail was returned to me for the following reason: "----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 550 Host unknown) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 5.1.2 ... Host unknown (Name server: fantazone.com: host not found)" Here is the content of my e-mail to you: === Hello, Your image, "Piece Treaty (Nudity/Situational)," has been removed from the gallery because it is in violation of this portion of the TOS: "Posting Unacceptable Images which include; 1. Depictions of physical arousal or sexual acts." This is an official warning. In accordance with the TOS, a second event will result in "Forum Suspension for 1 or 7 days or Temporary Community ban for 3 or 7 days." Please try to take more care with such images. Your work is really very good, and it would be a shame if you were to be suspended or banned because of pictures like this. Feel free to IM me (easier for me than e-mail) if you have any questions about this situation. Sincerely, Sipapu Renderosity Moderator ~~~~~~~~ Instant Message from Lakota_Sarah: Hi I fail to see any "sexual" contact or activity but I'm not going to argue with you, its your board not mine. My email is (email addy here) Please remove my account and all my art posted. Thank you have a wonderful life Sarah Privette Formerly; Lakota_Sarah (Sent 5/18 20:55) ===== Instant Message from Lakota_Sarah: I deleted my things but I don't know how to delete my account. Tell me or would you please do it on your end? Thank you. Sarah (Sent 5/18 21:07) ===== Instant Message from Lakota_Sarah: Sorry, My email is not (email addy) its (correct email addy here) (for your records so everyone can sleep better or something and can catch me if I try to come back - which won't happen anyway) (Sent 5/18 21:20) ~~~~~~~ Hello Sarah, I'm sorry you've made the decision to leave Renderosity and hope that you'll reconsider. Perhaps I should have been clearer in my IM: the issue was not one of sexual contact but of "physical arousal," as clearly evidenced by the genitals on the figure on the left. These are not new standards in the TOS. For your information, the decision to pull your image was not mine alone. Such decisions are made only after the moderators have viewed and discussed any image in question. Should you still want to delete your account, please notify any one of the administrators. Moderators don't have the ability to do that. Sipapu Renderosity Moderator (Sent 5/19 11:45) ~~~~~~ Instant Message from Lakota_Sarah: You guys are freaks.. That is so obsurd. Just because you guys got a hard-on looking at my work, don't blame me for it. Tell your bosses to kiss my ass and delete my account. How's that for Physical arousal? Sarah (Sent 5/19 16:00) ===== Sipapu's response was "Happy to oblige. It'll be just a moment." and she contacted me to handle the profile deletion. ~~~~~ so far as i know that was the exent of the IM transactions. thanks audre editor, renderosity magazine My reply to this email: Lakota: "Thank you for the reply. The IM messages were posted in full at that site (Thralldom) already but I will copy/paste them again with this email in whole. Thank you Sarah PS: You never answered my question how can anyone look at a female's genitals in a picture (especially this one) and decide she is aroused. May I have an answer please?" There you have it. This posted here to solidify my most sincere warning and desire for workable solution.

I know, but then we get into the discussion of "What constitutes 'arousal' on a female body?" In point, if nipples look a bit too erect is the character cold or aroused? Was there a 'wind'? Now we are talking about elements of a picture that are unseen.. yet everyone knows when aroused, nipples become firm as well. Guess that will be the next Troll target area? Honestly, I'm not sure who to be frustrated at, the complaining Trolls who (at least with me) get a double warning about nudity if the piece is a nude or the staff that allow the Trolls such powers. Are we going to look at art pieces and measure nipples now and how long can they be before it is decided a character is aroused?

I agree but I also the consequence of female nude image posting. According to some moderators and staff, evidently female arousal based solely on having seen a tiny part of a female's genitals is enough for TOS violation action. That female arousal was undetectable was also the case I presented but oh well. Talking about it? No Emily, it has already happened and all it takes is enough complaints from viewers who choose not to see the artist's vision and expression. If it's pink - its out. I'm sorry, but my body has pink there excited or not. I am a detail artist and if my piece was nude, I always flagged it such AND said so in the title.. Still the Troll's look at it and offend themselves - complain and rip the Spirit out of the artist as if burning on the stake. Writing here to both warn and try to correct for other artists that post work here (I don't anymore). There has to be a solution. Sarah

I think its a good idea because instead of getting 200 prudes complaining about a work, they get one and can go take a look.

I also think much of the problem is in the TOS itself though.

TOS 1. says depictions of arousal or sexual activities are in violation

Okie, Ill go that but how can anyone look at a females genitals and decide the character is aroused (less excretions). Is pink the color? Is it swollen?

To keep artists safe from Trolls and moderators less busy perhaps TOS 1 should become:

TOS 1: The showing of genitals (male or female) and/or pubic hair is in violation. Cover the crotch.

TOS 2: No sex acts or situations of any kind including traditional and oral or fondling the groin and/or breasts. Cant touch this.

Period, nothing more to add, very clear, no guesses, nobodys offended, nobody gets censored and angry, feelings arent hurt.

This policy should be extended into the stores as well which at this time appears not to be in some instances and give the wrong impression of what is acceptable art and what is not here.

Conversely, if an image is flagged nudity then those offended by such should not look at it and offend themselves. If an image is flagged nudity then anything should be allowed with the exception of traditional illegal activities such as rape and pedophilia.

Just the lowly input from one banned I accidentally showed the pink in a marked nudity work. It was decided that the character on the far left was "aroused" though in an emotionally lamenting piece of work. The correspondence in emails from judgmental Trolls caused the piece to be ripped from my gallery and threat of suspension or banning.

The correspondence was cordial. Unfortunately requesting an account be deleted gets one banned too I have discovered.

The piece is named Piece Treaty and is on display at Thralldom.org under the name of Lakota.

Maybe as PinkLips, we can work together to fix this problem.

Sarah