One of the bugs with the vertex modelers is that I doesn't handle faces welded together well. It will fail to render when you try to link with welded verteices in an object. It appears that messes up the vertex order such that the render can't figure out what to do with it. It may keep the extra points associated with the welded object. The only way I have been able to get around it is to set up all my vertecies on each of my faces before welding them together. Does any one know how to become a beta tester for Adobe I would like to find out how many bugs we can get ironed out. Might be a good idea for the lot of us to request to become beta testers and show suport for the product and the desire to make it better. If we could start a bug list with observations and keep updating Adobe with it it might get the point across. aqualls