It may be that the latest version of Poser has the tools to support a simple/effective transfer of Dawn clothing content to V4 and vice versa.  If so, that certainly makes Dawn more compelling for those users.  However, many people still have a significant investment in V4 poses and unless there is a tool for that...

As for Genesis, I still like the overall concept of having a unisex figure that can morph into lots of different shapes and still allow the fitted content to morph with it.  I simply think it was not implemented well and this has created issues that are adversely affecting us all. 

Some questions in my mind:

• What would we see now if Genesis had been released with native support for both DS and Poser? I think Dawn is evidence that such a thing is possible.

• What would the effect have been if Genesis had been released as a unisex figure without some of the shortcomings that DAZ is now trying correct?

• What would the effect have been if Genesis had true backward compatibility with Gen4 content/poses?

Quote - I'm still trying to figure out a good reason for migrating off of V4 to tell you the truth.  I use Genesis a lot - for everything other than photorealistic humans.  Genesis was a step backwards as far as that.  So DAZ recognized that and came out with G2.  Um, which STILL doesn't offer a whole lot that V4 doesn't with the proper movement morphs.

Can't say that I see Dawn as a significant (significant considering what I have tied up in V4 morphs and characters) either.

Genesis handles morphing chanels a heck of a lot better than V4, other than that...

The major problem with V4 previously regarding clothing was poke through - and collision detection/smoothing modifier took care of a lot of that.

So anyway, my question would be not what Dawn does for DS users, but why any of the newer stuff is enough better than V4 to contemplate moving off that character?

This is a very good question.  Since post-Gen4 characters arrived, I suspect a lot of people have asked and are still asking themselves the same question.  Certainly, if I knew two years ago what I know now, I would not have purchased DS (yes, I was one of those who purchased DS Pro) and I would not have invested in Genesis.  I already had Poser Pro 2012. Now, unfortunately, it is not that easy or inexpensive to transition the work from DS to Poser.

Although focusing on Genesis, I ended up investing heavily in Gen4 anyway.  But mostly in support of Genesis because I thought Genesis offered a good solution going forward.  So, I have a lot of M4/V4 poses that don't work well.  I have a lot of M4/V4 content that doesn't fit well.

I saw a lot of new, exclusive content for Dawn when it first arrived.  Now?  I still see some new content for Dawn.  But I also see a lot of new content for Gen4.  I doubt this would be case if there was insignificant demand for it. 

These days I spend very little at DAZ, and when I do, it is for typcially for pre-Genesis content or for DS add-ons (shaders, etc.).  I don't buy new content because they are mostly selling G2 stuff now.

Personally, I think backward compatibility is very important to a lot of people.  A lot of us are unwilling to give up the investment already made in purchased content (including poses).  Certainly, we all want improvements.  But not all of us are willing to re-invest and pay a high price in terms of money and time.  

I want to render scenes faster and with higher quality.  But I don't want to spend a lot of time and money on new characters because the payoff just isn't there.

On behalf of myself and others who are serious about asking the original question, thanks to those who have provided considered replies.  After more than a month, I have an answer for myself.  For practical reasons, I have decided I will hold off indefinately on any investment in Dawn content for use in DS.  If I were primarily a Poser user, I am sure I would think differently.

If a somone is able to develop high quality tools for converting Dawn content to Genesis (in DS), then I may start to buy Dawn content for that purpose.

I am also witholding funds for spending on G2 for many of the same reasons. 

I simply haven't found the complelling reasons to spend the money on either of these.  Some of the reasons:

 - I already have a lot of money invested in Genesis & V4/M4 clothing content for use on Genesis.  Unless I see compelling evidence that all V4 content (including high heels and long skirts) can be fitted to Dawn -AND- all Dawn content (including high heels and long skirts) can be fitted to Genesis, I have little desire to invest effort/money on Dawn.

 - I already have a lot of money invested in Genesis & V4/M4 pose presets (mainly for use on Genesis).  Unless I see compelling evidence that poses can be re-used (perhaps using an additional tool such as PoseMaster) on Genesis/Dawn, I have little desire to invest effort/money on Dawn.

 - I already have a lot of time/money invested in Genesis morphs.  I do not wish to spend a lot of additional money on the morphs necessary to get the results I am looking for.

Another word about Dawn content.  Up till now, Renderosity has provided a lot of V4 content which DS users could re-fit for use on Genesis (many of us spent a lot of time figuring out how to get good results).  It concerns me that this source of V4 conent may be drying up with the proliferation of Dawn content.  I hope that someone will see fit to develop a good quality tool for transfering Dawn content to Genesis. 

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Other than the fact that it is natively supported for both Poser and DS, what are the practical reasons for embracing Dawn for DS? 

I have decided not to purchase G2/V6 because I do not want to buy into that 10-new-base-figures-every-year thing DAZ pushes. 

I have downloaded Dawn and given it a try.  I notice that none of my previously-purchased clothing autofits.  There are minimal morphs.  The Gen4 UVs don't work.  I can't use GenX.  The limitations seem more boundless than the possibilities.

Why would DS users now want to get involved with this?

Man, There is just something wrong with this Ford carberator, It just wont fit on my Chevy.

You apparently don't know how autofit works, or how figures are UVmapped. The limitations are boundless because you seem to think features design spacifically for Genesis should work on all figures. They don't.

More over it isn't just UVmapping. Genesis has 3 main textures for the body, dawn has 4. So in order to make V4's textures work on Dawn you would have to stretch the arms and legs, which will show, and horendusly.

Autofit works on clones, so Mil3 clothes wont autofit to genesis with out buying the iconic shapes morphs. I've come to the conclusion the mil4 clothes don't autofit worth a flip because I didn't buy the mil4 morphs for genesis {wasn't suposed to need them}. If someone makes a V4 clone for dawn autofit would probably work for V4 clothes.

But this right here is good enough reason for me.

"I have decided not to purchase G2/V6 because I do not want to buy into that 10-new-base-figures-every-year thing DAZ pushes."

Genesis was out for a bit but I didn't have much to spend so I got what I thought was the absolute nesseties for morphs and nothing else. Before I could even get started on buying what I want; which is hirez skins and more base morphs, like the creatures, we had G2F. Bets are before too long we will see G2M, and so on. Personally I don't expect to see any G1 updates despite what DAZ says. But I have said it before I can not aford to toss a couple of hundered at DAZ everytime the dolly flavor changes.

Because I know who is working on Dawn, I have no concerns about it's development. Even though I expect some thing like an Even; male, soon enough {Dawn, evening-Even} ;)

Right now I haven't got a dime to spare because I need to save up to buy a new comp; to replace the one the mobo fried on, but if I had money to spend I would spend it on Dawn long before G1 or G2F.

And the big reason why? I've know Chris Creek for years, he was the artistic soul of DAZ. I certainly have more faith in him then DAZ.

Oh, here http://hivewire3d.com/forum/showthread.php?393-Create-a-V4-Clone-for-Dawn-%28a-tutorial%29 ;)

Of corse it does help that Hivewire isn't trying to shuve some elaborate download and install sytem down my throat, or some too close to DRM clothing commercial system. Mark my words, soon enough you will be getting commercials for clothes that are on sale, in your CMS window when you load G2M. Or watch Studio shut down and not work again because CMS found some piece of content in your studio content folder, er umm my libaray folder, oh no my daz3d libabray, or who knows what is may be called by then, that isn't in you DAZ purches history.

Yes, that is pure pariniod speculation. None the less it's nice that Hivewire gives me credit of having enough intelagence to install content with out help.

{regardless of how badly I spell} :D

 

I think it quite possible to keep this civil without casting aspersions on any individuals level of experience.  I have spent the past two years or so working heavily with autofit...

  Meant Transfer Utility, of course, not autofit.

Quote - > Quote - Other than the fact that it is natively supported for both Poser and DS, what are the practical reasons for embracing Dawn for DS? 

I have decided not to purchase G2/V6 because I do not want to buy into that 10-new-base-figures-every-year thing DAZ pushes. 

I have downloaded Dawn and given it a try.  I notice that none of my previously-purchased clothing autofits.  There are minimal morphs.  The Gen4 UVs don't work.  I can't use GenX.  The limitations seem more boundless than the possibilities.

Why would DS users now want to get involved with this?

Man, There is just something wrong with this Ford carberator, It just wont fit on my Chevy.

You apparently don't know how autofit works, or how figures are UVmapped. The limitations are boundless because you seem to think features design spacifically for Genesis should work on all figures. They don't.

More over it isn't just UVmapping. Genesis has 3 main textures for the body, dawn has 4. So in order to make V4's textures work on Dawn you would have to stretch the arms and legs, which will show, and horendusly.

Autofit works on clones, so Mil3 clothes wont autofit to genesis with out buying the iconic shapes morphs. I've come to the conclusion the mil4 clothes don't autofit worth a flip because I didn't buy the mil4 morphs for genesis {wasn't suposed to need them}. If someone makes a V4 clone for dawn autofit would probably work for V4 clothes.

But this right here is good enough reason for me.

"I have decided not to purchase G2/V6 because I do not want to buy into that 10-new-base-figures-every-year thing DAZ pushes."

Genesis was out for a bit but I didn't have much to spend so I got what I thought was the absolute nesseties for morphs and nothing else. Before I could even get started on buying what I want; which is hirez skins and more base morphs, like the creatures, we had G2F. Bets are before too long we will see G2M, and so on. Personally I don't expect to see any G1 updates despite what DAZ says. But I have said it before I can not aford to toss a couple of hundered at DAZ everytime the dolly flavor changes.

Because I know who is working on Dawn, I have no concerns about it's development. Even though I expect some thing like an Even; male, soon enough {Dawn, evening-Even} ;)

Right now I haven't got a dime to spare because I need to save up to buy a new comp; to replace the one the mobo fried on, but if I had money to spend I would spend it on Dawn long before G1 or G2F.

And the big reason why? I've know Chris Creek for years, he was the artistic soul of DAZ. I certainly have more faith in him then DAZ.

Oh, here http://hivewire3d.com/forum/showthread.php?393-Create-a-V4-Clone-for-Dawn-%28a-tutorial%29 ;)

Of corse it does help that Hivewire isn't trying to shuve some elaborate download and install sytem down my throat, or some too close to DRM clothing commercial system. Mark my words, soon enough you will be getting commercials for clothes that are on sale, in your CMS window when you load G2M. Or watch Studio shut down and not work again because CMS found some piece of content in your studio content folder, er umm my libaray folder, oh no my daz3d libabray, or who knows what is may be called by then, that isn't in you DAZ purches history.

Yes, that is pure pariniod speculation. None the less it's nice that Hivewire gives me credit of having enough intelagence to install content with out help.

{regardless of how badly I spell} :D

 

I think it quite possible to keep this civil without casting aspersions on any individuals level of experience.  I have spent the past two years or so working heavily with autofit in attempting to utilize the pre-Genesis content I own.  Gotten pretty good at it, as a matter of fact (e.g. V3/A3/V4 high heels on Genesis? not much of problem any more). 

Also, I like that DS allows me (when using the various UVs that will work with Genesis) to convert UVs designed for one figure to work with another (via Map Transfer).  In my view it is a major advantage to be able to re-use textures from previous or alternative figures.  

As with most, I do not appreciate having to re-purchase the same content a second time for a new figure unless there is a compelling reason to do it.  Combine the backward compatability of the V4 UVs with GenX, and many Renderosity vendors have been able to sell the their characters for both V4 and Genesis, and, for both DS and Poser.

I agree wholehartedly regarding G2 and M6, A6, H6, S6, F6, V7, M7,..., V23, etc., etc., etc.  But the concerns regarding V23 are relevant for any new character.  I am sure that the Dawn character is well designed and even I can tell that the builder understands DS very well.

Technically, G2/V6 is superior to Genesis.  However, there are many other factors to consider.  And it is these other factors that prevent many of us from buying G2/V6.  Now, if I do find content for G2 that I want, since Sickle Yield has constructed a G2 clone for Genesis, I can still download and use G2 content on Genesis. 

Although I bought both DS 4 Pro and Poser Pro 2012, I spent most of my time learning DS because I liked the Genesis concept.  Like many, I am not happy with the way Genesis was managed.  Especially when it comes to Poser.  But before I spend any money on a new character, I want to be confident it is the going to be money well spent.

If it is not asking too much I would like to request that this thread be focused on practical reasons why DS end-users should embrace this either as an alternative to G2/V6 or as an add-on to Genesis.  

Some will like it just because it is new and not Genesis and not DAZ.  Some will like it just because.  That's fine but not particularily helpful when trying to determine how to proceed as an end-user. 

If vendors embrace it for DS, as well as, Poser, this may be significant because it could provide end-users with an indication where we will need to focus our new investment in content.  For Genesis users, it has not been too much of an issue that vendors continue to support V4 because we can make most of this content work on Genesis.  What about using Dawn content on Genesis?  On V4?  How many vendors will provide Dawn content for Poser and combine that with a "Not tested in DS" on the write-up?

I have already given just a few reasons why-not.  It was helpful to know that autofit can be made to work.  I will take a look and perhaps that one can be scratched off the list...

It would also be helpful to hear from others who have the similar concerns.  Also those who have already found enough practical reasons to cross this bridge, so to speak.  I think, for a lot of us with a great deal of time and money invested in DS and DAZ figures, it is not an easy decision to make.