Quote - If you are using plug-ins or any other type of "Effects" its not 100% from scratch and on the same level we poser users do.

??? Are you serious here? Using a plugin to say make a surface glassy, or to bend something in a way that PS can't natively do, etc. is NOT the same. What I am doing by using plugins would be akin to rendering lighting on a poser figure, or adjusting the hue of a downloaded jacket for a poser figure. The plugin is not the feature or focus of the artwork. It is used subtly to help express the art w/o distracting from it. Having said that, once in a while a filter can be the artwork, but that is rare (think Warhol's Campbells Tomato soup cans in a grid with a different color scheme or curve applied to each as an example) Throwing a figure and some clothes onto a scene could be compared to say, starting with a photo that someone else took, and running a filter or two on it and presenting that as art. As I believe I stated earlier, that is NOT art, and that is NOT what I'm doing. There is a big difference here, and it is false to equate using a a filter or plugin with using pre-created figures and clothes. It can be similar for someone that has only used PS for a week, but they aren't submitting abd posting here, and if they are, I bet they are getting very few votes. The point here is that if there is a basic level of pure amateurism and uncreative artwork done in photoshop and presented here, it would be dismissed in 2secs. Present the same level of "artistry" (or lack thereof) and skill in a Poser creation, and it could actually win!!!> Quote - Plug in Effects are made by someone else besides you,so are the Effects but you are using what the program gives you or buying Effects or plug-ins. What we poser users do and you do are use the program to make our art.

A plugin, in most cases, is very different in effect than using something recreated in poser. You are comparing apples to watermelons here. Using a lot of the plugins & filters in Photoshop (at least skillfully) is more like a painter using different size and types of brushes to get diferent textures. Again someone using poser who downloads someone elses figure would equate to someone using someone else's photograph in PS. The problem here is that a lot of the poser arts work that I have seen in the past, doesn't do much more than that. Download a figure, throw some downloaded clothes, set up some lighting (or maybe not) and hit the render button. Viola, instant art! NOT! BUt it can still win. Someone else downloads a photo of bill gates and uses a filter to swirl the picture and then presents that as art will get no votes, ignored, or flamed. We are saying that there is a bit of a double-standard here, and a bit of the "It's made in poser, so it MUST be art" attitude (not in everyone, just a few).> Quote - what you photoshop users make isn't art,or pencil artist will say that photography isn't Art. Each use their medium to produce Art.

I think that most real artists, regardless of skill, would actually recognize the artistic merit of each of the genres, and check their 'superior attitude' at the door. Of course this is not always the case, but it is a lot of the time, and you can't really generalize by saying that x type of artists will say that b type of artist is crap. > Quote - I would say that IMO our medium is very close to photography,Photoshop IMO is like digital manipulation.Each capable of producing museum quality Art

I totally disagree here, not necessarily in a bad way... a LOT of what I would see from poser "artists" is more akin to department store display window stuff. The really nice poser stuff I see here I would liken more to actually painting than photography. If I create something very artistic in photoshop and enter it into a contest and I get beaten by some really artistic poser stuff (and I have), all props go to the poser artist. There are some that produce simply incredible, amazing stuff. But if I lose to someone that has created something with less skill and creativity than a window display designer, it does irk me. Photoshop can be digital manipulation (if you think about it, it's all digital manipulation), but it can be so much more than that too. Next time you go to the book store look at some of the Photoshop Artistry books, or some of Bert Monroy's books. Simply calling it digital manipulation is oversimplifying it and not doing it any justice.

Good and bad points. It is HOW you use your tools, not what tools you are using. People who don't model should NOT be looked down upon. MY complaint here, as I previously stated, is that the site is SOO poser-centric, that even crap poser stuff thrown together "wins" over well done stuff in other programs (not just photoshop). I have seen some stuff here done with poser that was absolutely beautiful and fantastic, and most definitely art, but it's almost like the ONLY qualification in many cases is your tools (Poser in this case), and not necessarily it's artistic merit. Sometimes you look at some contests and you think "Jeez. Bert Monroy could create some work of art entirely by scratch and lose to this guy that has been using poser for like a week and obviously rendered the figure & background seperatly because the objects all have light sources in different directions." It gets frustrating for the contestands, and bewilders those browsing through and looking at the contest archives. I have seen where some creates something truly artistic and original in PS, or illustrator, painter, etc. and it "loses" to some thrown together and sloppily created poser "art" simply by virtue of the fact that it was poser art. Your bad point? Poser created images ARE art. No, they are not inherently. As YOU stated, it's not the tools, but what yopu do with them. Poser created images CAN BE art, but just cause it was made in poser doesn't mean it's art. Like Stevie Wonder said: "Just because a record has a groove don't mean it's in the groove!"

Quote - Apparently some people will never understand that art is art, regardless of the tools used. Like someone above said...it's all in how you use the tools you have, not what tools you have. everybody model their own figure? Should those who don't be looked down upon because either a) they lack the tools or b) they lack the talent...or both? That's like saying sketch artists shouldn't be allowed to display their art because painting takes or not, Poser created images are original art, no matter how much or how little time is spent creating them.

I did say that you CAN do original stuff in poser, even with downloaded figures, but in many of the contests that I see, there is a large portion that doesn't go through that effort. I wasn't dismissing an art form at all. AND it's a false assumption, or logical leap, to say that if you dismiss one form of art you should dismiss them all. If I think Kenny G is crap, that doesn't mean that I them must believe that ALL music is crap. :-) Here, I'll put it in perspective in a photoshop context: Imagine someone downloads a photograph of a face and opens it up in photoshop. They then "select all" and simply apply an art brush filter to the image, and then say "see? Now it's art" It's not Another (poorer) analogy - it's kinda like comparing a cover band to an original. I don't care how well you can play Purple Haze, you are not nearly as creative and the guy that wrote it (or I should say in the very least you are not being creative in that example). Do you see what I am getting at now? Brain21

Quote - I've been a member here for a while, but never really wandered through the forums. This topic caught my eye, as I have been creating Poser images for about a year now.

I'm wondering if the two people who are putting down a form of art realize just how much time goes into creating an image from Poser "pre-mades". Yes, my creations are made from pre-made characters, hair, clothing, ect. Time spent on average for a good quailty piece: about 20 hours...and that's before I do any postwork in a 2D graphics program, which I generally do. Just because it seems simple, doesn't mean it is.

If you want to dismiss "putting products together and rendering them" as a form of art, then you should think about dismissing all forms of art. Where would you be without your Photoshop? Where would a traditional artist be without their mediums (pencil, paper, paint, ect.)? Some have a talent to create, others a talent to manipulate and change. Regardless, it's all art in the end.

Funny to see this still going on. I stumbled upon this site by accident tonight. Last time I was here was about 5 years ago. Why did I leave? Because I thought that this site should have changed their name from Renderosity to Poserosity. I saw in contest after contest SOOO many entries that were simply bought poser figures and clothes and objects placed in a scene, rendered, adn submitted. Being a more photoshop oriented artist I was creating pretty much 100% of what you saw in my work in Photoshop. I created 3D effects with plugins, and shading, etc. And no, it's not the same. Creating a 3d illusion in Photoshop from scratch vs downloading a 3d object and placing a light source on the stage and hitting the render button are about like comparing Van Gogh's "Sunflowers" with a Photograph of those original sunflowers. You can do really nice original work in Renderosity even with downloaded objects, clothes, etc., but that almost never happens from what I see in many of the contests. I can't quantify how to judge it, but to paraphrase "I can't tell you what makes Poser-based art original, but I know it when I see it" and really, it's not that hard at all to tell which final images are the result of download some stuff, add lighting and render vs real, genuine artistic work (or at least an attempt at it). Funny, it's been 5 years, and it doesn't look like much has changed. See you again in another 5... Brain21

First, I would like to suggest a "modern art" theme for the last 4 cards: 1- Art Nouveau 2- Art Deco 3- Cubism 4- Pop Art I also like the idea of "art genres" too. I see WAY too many Poser creations, and would like to see some more different things. Someone else suggested: 1- Landscape (Terragen, Bryce, etc.) 2- Poser (please use it in a more unusual and creative manner than just downloading some props and clothes from Daz) 3- Photography 4- Fractals Or something along those lines. I think that my idea of modern art would force poser users to really stretch their creativity. I would love to see some Poser generated works of Cubism!!! Brain21