Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/polls.ez

http://www.renderosity.com/polls.ez It is not even in this page...is this a 'server' glitch?

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Maybe they took it down because Legume was doing pretty good percentage wise and felt the need to shut it down before he actually won. Jack

From what I read, they select the AOY now, maybe to avoid the wrong guy getting voted in:

"What is AOY? At the end of the year, one of the artist of the month will be selected for the title of Artist of the Year. (The prize will be announced closer to the event."

But maybe it's a server glitch and the poll will re-appear.

This looks really, really bad. What the fuck is going on?

I agree with you Mosca, this really doesn't look to good. Jack

An AOY article was Pended and the Poll may have been too by mistake.

I've communicated to the other admins.

-JH.

Thanks Jeff Jack

Guys, RR Admins and Mods vote for the AOY. That's been the plan for some time. It was a mistake to set it up as a public poll and we apologize for the confusion. TC

Jeff, Will the poll be reposted ? Will the votes that already have been submitted be taken into account ? I really wish one of the admins would have posted something about this. Courtesy, if nothing else. ~S

I thought that members voted for their favorites and staff chose from there? But your way is much much better - don't let any "rabble" get showcased ok? Because too much diversity of art might spoil this place for the newbies.... ;-D

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Whoa ! Crosspost ! So why did you guys decide to decide this for yourselves ? ~S

Hmmm.....Why indeed?

"It was a mistake to set it up as a public poll and we apologize for the confusion." Err, why? Something wrong with the public choosing whom they would champion as artist of the year?

Yet another dumbass control-freak fuckup from the PTB. Don't they have better things to do than hijack the AOY contest? Legume, I hope you do contact the Tenn A.G.; this reeks of fraud--you can't offer prizes as a promotion and then give them to employees, relatives, etc. It's dishonest and worse, it's insulting; clearly they think we're not smart enough to select the "correct" AOY, so now we'll have one selected for us. Clearly, the thought of Legume as AOY scares them shitless because he doesn't fit their heavily postworked "corporate image."

So after taking the time to look through the gallerys of the nominees and taking the time to actually VOTE, now my vote doesnt mean shit? Rest assured I will NEVER vote in any contest or promotion you guys come up with again. First you guys take away the nomination process from the members of this site, now the final voting is taken away too? Stick your contests and AOM/AOY where the sun don't shine cause this is one member thats PISSED! I VOTED! A LOT of other members VOTED as well, if you guys can't get your shit together how is that our fault?

Hmmm...have we seen this before....

Hehe, I don't have to say what I think, Spiritbro did it already. ;)

I suppose when the admins vote they'll have an old Soviet style ballot with one name on it? Isn't it a shame that we, the great unwashed, proved that we are incapable of voting the right way and had to have that taken away from us? This reeks more than a cattle barn in July.

Just when I thought the moral standards of the back offices here could not sink any lower! It really is sickmaking.

Legume. How close were you to the lead? I didn't see the poll.

He was in 2nd place running about 2 points behind--maybe a difference of 10 votes or so. The poll mysteriously vanished when threads started popping up here and there, urging people to vote. It's painfully obvious what happened.

The last I saw it was: ToxicAngel at 25% Legume at 23% Legume went from 13% to 23% in less than a day and then the plug was pulled. This did not surprise me at all, in fact I predicted it ! There was absolutely no way that Legume would be allowed to win................

"There was absolutely no way that Legume would be allowed to win................" This says it in a nutshell. The admins are terrified by the prospect of Legume as AOY--how will they write the press release? They're basically lobotomizing the whole site.

Some of you probably remember I used to work here for a couple years. So let me explain how something like this can happen: There are several people doing the coding for the site. Those people are not really involved in the activies they are coding. What I mean is. They don't really know what they are setting up a lot of the time. What probably happened was someone (coding personnel) posted the poll by accident. And nobody who was involved in deciding whether it was supposed to be posted or not caught it. Then one of the members IM'd the Admins. to complain when Legume was getting close to taking the lead. Causing the Admins. to notice that the thing was live. When it shouldn't have been posted in the first place. Yes. I've recieved many complaints as a mod. here from members angry that Legume was getting notoriety for posting "Unusual" images. And making the site look like a joke. So you can see how this can happen. Because similar things have happened before. So I don't buy the conspiracy theory. But I can't say it isn't possible. Anything is possible here. ;-) ScottA

If the poll is not re-instated, then the title of AOY is totally worthless. withdrawing our franchise in mid polling is wrong and everyone knows it!

Well it's nice to get that cleared up.....(it's sarcasm)

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"Subject: x2000? i have to warn you... Instant Message from firefly: I'm surprised at your actions regarding audre and very disappointed too. It's one thing to voice your opinions on the AOY but to purposely lead a personal attack on someone is just mean spirited and hateful. I honestly didn't think you were capable of that x2000. I always looked forward to seeing you and your posts... I'm sorry, please consider this your second official warning :( (Sent 12/21 10:28)" I did NOT attack Audre, merely repeated what is established fact. Audre's actions in Audre's own words. I did no more than the equivalent of repeating a story from the news. And my only purpose was to prove that Renderosity have a history of "fixing" contests. Honestly, I think Audre had good intentions, though she did the wrong thing. Far more troublesome is the way the rest of the PTB covered it up and even insulted the members, as if Renderosity's lack of ethics was our fault. If anyone is seriously considering legal action, I still have the screen capture of Audre's confession in the admin forum (of rigging the emoticon contest, if you haven't read the OT thread), which proves beyond a doubt that Renderosity has already rigged contests before. And I'll be happy to send a copy to anyone who asks. This isn't about Audre, Firefly, it's about ethics.

If the "plan for some time" was not to post an open poll, then who told the coding staff to code it? Surely they didn't just do it on their own. Doesn't hold water. What does make sense is that some members (read merchants, mods and admins) complained, and the voting was yanked. That part I believe. So, now other members are complaining. Who do you listen to? There's no conspiracy theory--it's obvious what happened. What there is, is an attempt on the part of the admins to cover it up, and sweep the whole business under the rug. Did they think we wouldn't notice? That no one would care? Yet another insult to your intelligence, courtesy of the PTB.

"who told the coding staff to code it? Surely they didn't just do it on their own. Doesn't hold water." Mosca. How can you say this stuff without being behind the scenes to see for yourself? I'm telling you. I've been there. I've seen it before. The guys who code some of the stuff have posted things by mistake before. This isn't something new. I know it sounds crazy But: I'VE SEEN IT!!!!!!!!! Why the hell do you think I quit? I'll tell you why. Because I couldn't deal with the all-out incompetence. As far as bone headed mistakes....hell they wrote the book on that here. But I'll defend them to the end when people accuse them of being unfair. They really try hard to please everyone (and that's part of the problem).

man, I love this place :)

"So I don't buy the conspiracy theory." Didn't expect you too ! Its gotta be tough to remove the Jack Boots once you have worn them for so long.

ScottA, the point is not whether or not someone goofed on the coding, but the fact that the Admins have changed what has in the past been a public poll to a private one. That is the problem, and it has nothing at all to do with the programming guys.

Yes. I agree Phoenyx, I just wanted to show that this kind of thing happens and has happened. And probably will happen again. The fact still remains that there was a screw up. And although I persoanlly don't think they need to re-instate the poll (but it might not be a bad idea). They need to do something for all involved to show they are sorry for the mistake. Of course. History states that whatever they try to do to make up for the mistake. The members will still post angry messages. So I don't really feel sorry for them, because no matter what they get. They'll just complain about it anyway.

If management intended the "Artist of the year" to be decided by them "some time ago", then it was their responsibility to make the relevant announcement "some time ago". They didn't. Obviously, the only honest way they can make up for this mistake is to allow the votes of those who took the time to vote to count. And the only way to do that is to put the poll back up and allow the voting to continue. That way no harm is done. Deciding "the hell with you people who took the time to vote, we forgot to tell you the AOY was going to become our arbitrary corporate choice, we accidentally posted the poll, but that's all just tough luck to you" is nothing but stabbing your supporters in the back. There is no realistic way you can defend yourself from accusations of having closed the vote because you didn't like the result. If it was a mistake, it was too large a mistake. Besides which, regardless of whether it was a mistake or not, what exactly is the message supposed to be? The only reason that people are here and contribute their creative efforts here is because they feel it is an open forum where they can share their work with their peers. You are basically saying "well, it is no longer open. We control everything. You people stand or fall here according to our whim. If you don't like it, tough. Go elsewhere". That is the message you are sending. I don't believe that in the shuffle, that obvious message is being overlooked.

PINK PONY knows the score. PINK PONY has a judgement waiting.

Well if the programmer screwed up then the site should live with the mistake and leave the voting for AOY the way it was. You just can't change stroke in midstream. If Legume wins, and you guys aren't happy about it - take it up with the programmer who screwed up and take steps next year to make sure that it does not happen again. You guys are only compounding the mistake by handling this way - just like you guys compounded the mistake with the emoticons contest for OT.

"How can you say this stuff without being behind the scenes to see for yourself?" I was asking a question, based on your supposition that this was an "innocent" mistake. I'll ask it again: how could a programmer, completely on his own, without any input from a site admin, write and post a poll and put it prominently on the front page? And why would it then STAY up for a couple of days, until Big Scary Freak Legume started to make a race of it? It seems pretty obvious to me that the decision to put the poll up was made at the admin level, just like the decision to take it down. Nobody currently on staff has said anything to indicate otherwise. Obviously the PTB thought no one would notice, or care very much,and now they're once again insulting our intelligence with some lame explanation. What an unadulterated crock of shit.

Got that right Legume, two very agonizing steps. Too many hoops to jump through to post an article and a poll to go with the article for this to be a mere mistake. Jack -speaking from experience with bondware.

ScottA, Your final sentence shows your utter contempt for the whole Renderosity community, so how do you expect anyone to take your words seriously ? Are you sure you quit ? Maybe you were just asked to step down quietly because you couldn't keep your disgust for the community quiet any longer ? Anyway, I can now file your opinion in the place it belongs.........

Thank you Badco. God bless and Happy Holidays.

"So I don't really feel sorry for them, because no matter what they get. They'll just complain about it anyway." The customer is always wrong.

Can someone explain to me how, if there was to be no poll in the first instance, who would have given the list of the twelve artists and the instruction to code for the poll that was posted. Someone must have given the instruction to code and someone must have intended that we were going to have a poll? Own up! whoever is responsible for this disgusting mess? Pulling the poll is a gutless act and will damage the creditability of the site once again. I just can't believe we are being pissed on again after all that has passed this year. What is the management thinking of?

"So I don't really feel sorry for them, because no matter what they get. They'll just complain about it anyway." With the greatest of respect Scott! who are you talking about?

What doesn't make any sense is this, the mods nominate the artist of the month and then the renderosity members vote on a winner out of those nominated that month. So we still got some say in who was the winner. With this AOY, they are taking it totally out of our hands. To not vote on the AOY from the years monthly winners is absurd, to say the least ! We voted for the monthly winners but are now not allowed to vote for the AOY ? There is absolutely no reason, what so ever, for them to take the vote away from us, unless they have an agenda, and that agenda, it seems, does not include Legume ! Unfortunately, Legume is not the best marketing tool. They can get a hell of a lot more mileage if someone else is named, Artist of the Year ! Sorry Legume, but controversy does not sell well in the marketplace. imho

IIRC mods do NOT nominate for AOM, the members do

WEll I know for a fact this thread and all our complaints are falling on deaf ears. Whenever Rosity makes a terrible blunder do they fix it? Nope never. Do they admit they fucked up? Nope never. If they made the decision a long time ago to take away our voting rights for AOY then maybe a general announcement would have been nice. Something along the lines of, We regret to inform you all that we have decided to name AOY ourselves. We feel that the members of this site are far to ignorant to vote properly and would tarnish this wonderful site of ours. Thank you all for your contributions to the freestuff areas and thanks to the merchants for your contributions to our pockets, but your opinions and efforts arent needed or wanted in regards to AOY, now go F*ck your selves. Gee I didnt see any anouncement like that anywhere did any of you?As I said before I always tried to take the time to vote in AOM and AOY. I actually looked through the gallerys of those nominated made my decision based on what I saw and VOTED! Now after taking the time to vote in this years AOY Rosity says my vote isnt worth shit. Well the hell with voting in the future. I know one thing. Im certainly not a good enough artist to get nominated for anything, but if I were, I would be removing my name from the list right about now. I wouldnt want anything to do with this shit. Great job Rosity, Merry Fucking Christmas.

Oh and if anyone is wondering where X2000 is he got banned for a week.

"Unfortunately, Legume is not the best marketing tool." You're Right!!! this! is the best marketing tool!

gee what a surprise ;) lol You know people there are plenty of other online communities out there - you might want to shop around and find one that does think you count.

Amidst all this controversy, so far the site management remains silent on explaining how it could make a decision "for some time," or what it means by saying that a public vote was a "mistake." It seems to translate as: "There's no way in Hell we're going to let Legume win this contest after he mocked our attempts at producing art." I might not be as bitter if Renderosity would answer my e-mail, but I guess it'd be a bit naive to expect them to openly communicate with any of their users.

"WEll I know for a fact this thread and all our complaints are falling on deaf ears. " Not completely deaf, Spirit - they managed to ban x2000 for having the temerity to remember one of their other admin hoseups. ;]

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• Monkeysmell

Thats true IB, Maybe they are listening to our complaints, they just dont give a flying fuck! I would start a post asking for a reason for banning X2000 but I know where that would lead, first moving then locking with no reason given. Happens all the time doesnt it?

It be de Rosity way. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Amidst all this controversy, so far the site management remains silent on explaining how it could make a decision "for some time," I'm reminded of an old Lucy episode and Ricky demands an explaination for what she's done. Lucy hesitates and Ricky impaitently yells "Well???" Lucy then says "Well do you want it fast, or do you want it good?" If we're going to get an explaination (and that's a mighty big if), they're apparently taking their time to make it good. That's the problem with lies: you have to make them believable.

Yep,I guess it be so. This site needs an enema. I would say a lobotomy but they had one about a year ago.

"That's the problem with lies: you have to make them believable. " Thats the problem though, they have never been good liars. To be a good liar you have to respect the intelligence of the person your lying to. They dont respect our intelligence so they feel they can just wing it and we wont see through it. Either that or they JUST DONT GIVE A FUCK!

It's the usual pattern: they're circling the wagons, trying to figure out how to spin this so they won't just make it worse (then they'll make it worse). Also, they figure it'll calm down on its own pretty soon, and if anybody gets too vocal they'll just ban 'em for a few days, like x2000. I'm significantly pissed, though, and I'm not going to let this go anytime soon. I think if we really give a shit about being treated like livestock, we have to let our wallets do the walking. Hang out, suck up bandwidth, and boycott the MP till they do the right thing. Now let's see how long before I get banned.

Oh come on - none of the regulars here can really be surprised by this - disgusted and nauseous - sure thing, but surprised no. Sadly it has become more and more obvious that the people don't matter and contests are hosted here for top merchants and moderators to win only. Again - no real surprise. So move on folks - nothing unusual to see here. Go on git! There will be a repeat of this type of show before the year is out and plenty more next year. hey you! yeah you! Don't you dare post that commentary about staff here winning contests and hiding it, no don't if you even so much as mention it as relevant to yet another contest you will be outta here! Over there - stop typing! There is no reason to get all logical and show that there must have been 2 mistakes, the poll itself and the announcement of it - no one is actually listening because we don't really want you to interact in the community - post pictures so people will look, sell your stuff and buy even more - but other than that please don't bother. ;-D

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Sounds like bullshit to me. Not surprising. God forbid someone who the admins don't approve of should get voted in as AOY. "Commie" Admin at large.

LSM--you're right, of course, big picture. This is neither the first nor the last such R'osity cluster-fuck. But for some reason this one gets my particular goat--the notion that only Bondware-approved artists deserve to be honored as AOY just flat riles me. If we needed any further proof that the MP tail wags the gallery dog, this is the smoking gun. It's galling, it's hypocrisy, it's a declaration of war on anyone who might have the temerity to post anything other than the usual product-driven image in the galleries here. Close to the last straw, for me.

Wow this is fun. Like a Jerry Springer episode, once you start watching you cant look away. Im repulsed yet strangely aroused at the same time.... ummm did i say that outloud?

"Im repulsed yet strangely aroused at the same time...." Welcome to my world.

ewwww..... unwanted images...

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-Galileo

Doc?!?!? Controversial?!?!?1 nawwww there are times that docs offbeat work is exactly what's needed to help maintain some semblance of sanity. I do beleive that doc's off beat images have contributed a lot to this community. on the subject of the voting, I think that by pulling the poll a huge mistake was made, that will cause a lot of noise, and add to the distaste that is growing around this site, caused by such controversal actions by the Admins. but we ALL know, making noise won't change anything. ( except maybe get you banned for your noise-making ) how the poll was made live is not the issue, the issue is pulling it afterwards. when the flames start getting higher, just remember that.

Then leave.

Scott, why? has the TOS been changed so that we aren't allowed to express our personal opinions? which would violate the freedom of speech the federal government guarantees.

lol :) Leave... And miss all of this?

That's not what I mean. If you folks hate this place so much. And it's so unfair. The act of staying here makes you look: _______________ Please fill in the blank yourselves. I don't wish to call people names. Especially during the holiday season.

if I hated it I wouldn't be here. ~g~ I just posted my opinion on what exactly is the issue being screamed about, and what the "mistake" made is. we have all seen that the noise won't change it, but people have to have thier screamfest.

leave? hate this place? are you kidding? you don't get entertainment like this anywhere else! This is better than Jerry Springer!

The act of staying here makes you look: Entertained :)

You seem so jaded by the whole affair Scott, I wonder that you don't leave yourself and let the folks that wish to voice their objections do so without you interjecting yourself as an apologist for the management. The reason I am commenting in this thread is precisely because I consider the incident unfair and feel I have every right to voice my opinion. It may suit you to walk away every time you are insulted, however, that is not the way of many here in this thread, whether you agree with it or not.

I don't think that will all fit in the blank Brendan. 8-)

Entertained? It sointanly does me, Stanly. Er... Wadus. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Popcorn's ready....

hey Jackie, pass some over here will ya? ;)

Of course it wouldn't Scott, I can't do glib as well as you, but the more you post, the more I learn how it is done.

The thing that pisses me off Scott is I TOOK the time to vote! How many members are there at Rosity? How many take the time to vote? Now Im new to the community, but I did take the time to vote. Now Im told my vote isn't worth shit. Did you vote Scott? If you did aren't you a little pissed off that the vote you cast isn't valid anymore. That the admin. of this site think you and your fellow members aren't capable of making the decision as to who AOY is? Then to hear a lame assed excuse about there being a mistake? This is a big site, supposedly run by professionals, where are their heads at? DO they really think everyone is stupid enough to believe that?

In protest to this I am pulling all of my stuff from here and will not visit this site till AOY Poll is back. I think of Florida balleting when I heard this. YES I DID VOTE FOR LEGUME!

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If it was a coding error, why was it posted in almost every forum, not to mention the front page? Contest rigging. This is beneath contempt. Just out of curiosity, have the renderosity managment thought of any more ways to sink to even lower unexplored depths? Server glitch my ass.

Or concerned. Or interested in fair and responsive management of the site. What I'm curious about, Scott, is what your role is in this discussion--first you suggest that the whole thing was a screw-up by the programmers (I'm sure they're thrilled to hear that), now you're hauling out the rusty old "if you don't like it, get out" reasoning. I assume you're speaking unofficially here, and not as a representative of R'osity, but either way my answer's the same: all I'm doing is appealing to the admin's sense of fair play. As a customer and long-time member, I'd like to think that the business I'm supporting is capable of running an honest and unbiased contest, and trusts its customers enough to let them decide the outcome for themselves, per the published rules. And there are borader implications--the message is that only Bondware-approved, product-driven art is welcome, and that's frankly pretty disturbing. I'd like to think that wasn't the case--I'd like someone at the admin level to enter one of these threads and explain, truthfully, the reasons for this abrupt change of course--but so far that hasn't happened. Sorry you object to that message, but it's really not your place to tell anyone to leave.

I'll say what I want Mosca. 8-)

Pass the popcorn Jackie, I brought the wild turkey.... I personally voted for Nitro, although gevidal almost got it. It was a damned hard decision, but I'm glad to know it ment something.

"I'll say what I want Mosca. 8-) " So will we Scott. You didnt answer my question though, did you vote?

I don't understand X2000 being banned for (I assume-the post is gone) stating a fact while ScottA definitely violated the TOS sometime last week in the Poser forum and didn't get banned. (at least to my knowledge if he did I'm sure someone will correct me)
Nothing personal to Scott, I don't care one way or the other I'm just pointing out something obvious.

On the poll, if it's been a public poll in the past and the reasons for pulling it are because of Legume I can see both sides of this.
On one hand it is unfair to Legume. If he is the popular vote so be it.
On the other hand, if people are voting out of some sort of spite or to get back at Renderosity for past differences then you should be able to see how posting messages in the forums and rallying everyone to vote for this reason is unfair to the other artists in the running and why they'd want to put a stop to it.
And nothing against Legume here either. I just find it ironic how suddenly contests like this are so important but when controversy in the Hot20 or AOM comes up everyone is tripping over themselves to be the first to say they don't care about such things.

...... Kendra

"I'll say what I want Mosca. 8-)" And you have, at length, without engaging in any discussion of the actual issue here, which is why it's okay from the admins' point of view to fix a contest because one of the contestants is "difficult."

That was an inside Joke to Mosca Spirit. No. I didn't vote. Mainly beacuse I don't feel qualified to judge art images. I'm as far from an artist as you can get. But I will if a new poll is posted. Because I feel bad for Legume and ToxicAngel.

Fair enough Scott. I hope you get the chance to cast your vote.

And you have, at length, without engaging in any discussion of the actual issue here, which is why it's okay from the admins' point of view to fix a contest because one of the contestants is "difficult." All of a sudden it's now fact that the contest was fixed? I must have missed the post from the admins. Where is that one? I've merley been saying that I accept Tim's apology for making a web site layout mistake. If someone has spoken up and said it was rigged. I'll be glad to pick up a pitch fork and storm the castle too.

"On the other hand, if people are voting out of some sort of spite or to get back at Renderosity for past differences then you should be able to see how posting messages in the forums and rallying everyone to vote for this reason is unfair to the other artists in the running and why they'd want to put a stop to it." I haven't seen any indication that this was happening. Certainly, everyone has the same opportunity to canvass for votes, and people's reasons for voting the way they do are their own business. I think the great unfairness has been perpetrated on the members; once again the PTB have decided that the customers are dangerous half-wits, loose cannons that can't be trusted with the most rivial decisions. And their response thus far has been insulting and disingenuous.

Well, no surprises here - apart from the fact that Scott mentions he gets messages from members saying that Legume makes the site look like a joke. How the hell could he do that? The staff have that all sewn up........ And Cheryle, yeah, I'd sooner see jack shit than that load of sexist crap.

911-69.blogspot.co.uk/

"All of a sudden it's now fact that the contest was fixed? I must have missed the post from the admins. Where is that one?" Where is ANY response from the admins, other than Tim's lame assertion that "it was a mistake"? Sure it was a mistake, as soon as it looked like Legume had a chance of winning. "I've merley been saying that I accept Tim's apology for making a web site layout mistake." Fine, good for you. But a mere apology doesn't fix it. Let's reinstate the poll and let the member-customers make the decision, per the published rules. Let's NOT just make the poll disappear without explanation or apology to the contestants or the voting members (at least not until people started raising hell). I guess what I'm asking you, Scott, is what solution you propose?

My solution is to accept their apology. And let them run their own web site they way they want to. Membership doesn't give me the right to accuse someone of fixing a contest with no proof. Neither does freedom of speech.

..."Membership doesn't give me the right to accuse someone of fixing a contest with no proof." But removing a contest vote mid stride does give us the right to ask these people Tennessee Office of the Attorney General Davy Crockett Tower 500 James Robertson Pkwy. Nashville, TN 37243 (615) 741-4737 to look into it. IIRC last years prize was more than one weeks salery for me and i make good money- last years aom got siggraph tickets and a hotel room etc.

"My solution is to accept their apology. And let them run their own web site they way they want to." What have they apologized for? Certainly not for taking the AOY voting out of the hands of the members--only for offering it in the first place. And frankly, I don't find the "mistake" excuse particularly convincing--exactly how was such a mistake made? When was the decision made to place AOY selection in the hands of mods/admins, and why weren't the members notified? Your "solution" does nothing to address the concerns of the member-customers OR the contestants--all it does is let the staff off the hook. And of course they're entitled to run the site as they see fit--but I'm equally entitled to protest, within the TOS, when I feel that certain members are being discriminated against because their views are controversial. "Membership doesn't give me the right to accuse someone of fixing a contest with no proof." Frankly, it's hard to arrive at any other conclusion, since none of the admins have bothered to offer an explanation that actually makes sense.

Kendra, in #88:

On the other hand, if people are voting out of some sort of
spite or to get back at Renderosity for past differences
then you should be able to see how posting messages in the
forums and rallying everyone to vote for this reason is
unfair to the other artists in the running and why they'd
want to put a stop to it.

Renderosity may want to put a stop to it, but yanking the
vote away from people is hardly the way to do it. All they
are achieving is to generate more 'past differences' for
the future, if in fact they yanked the vote for the reasons
that people here suspect.

No matter what the skill level or motive, art cannot be
seperated from opinion. They are one and the same. To
disallow a public response to art (or the artist) is to
deny the fact of what art is.

I call on Renderosity to re-open the public vote for AoY.
To do anything else at this point is to lend credence to
the suspicions that have been raised, regardless of
what the actual reason for the closing of the vote was.

And Scott, you still haven't explained what your role is here. Are you presently in discussion with admin staff regarding this issue? I don't understand what your interest is in entering these threads as an apologist for management if you're acting in a purely unofficial capacity.

It's only apologist from your POV Mosca. You claimed that they fixed the contest with no proof. Just assumptions. I showed you how it could be a simple mistake. That's all. All the other stuff was your brain trying to catagorize me into the I'm not with you catagory. You assumed my position the same way you assumed the admins. played dirty pool. My actuall POV never came up. You were too busy chastising me for posting a message that didn't state let's get em'.

You didn't really answer the question, Scott. "I showed you how it could be a simple mistake." Pretty thin cloth; others have pointed out that multiple, related errors would have to have been made for this to happen. What are the odds, even around here? "You assumed my position the same way you assumed the admins. played dirty pool." All I did was ask. What IS your position? "My actuall POV never came up." Now's your chance.

Well, if I was any of the AOY Nominee's I know that I'd be pretty pissed. For example if I was Legume or ToxicAngel and I wasn't selected, I'd be dialing up the Attorney General for contest rigging. The only way I see out of this for Rosity is to award both ToxicAngel and Legume the award of AOM, since reinstating the POLL would mean recasting ballets... Far as I am concerned, from last I looked, Legume won. Now give him his fucking prize!! Jack

That should be AOY... sorry about that. Jack

"I call on Renderosity to re-open the public vote for AoY. To do anything else at this point is to lend credence to the suspicions that have been raised, regardless of what the actual reason for the closing of the vote was." Well said. I second that emotion.

"Far as I am concerned, from last I looked, Legume won. Now give him his fucking prize!!" A free, all-expense paid trip to lovely, romantic Somalia!

Peeps, IF and elgeneralisimo stresses IF a contest is/was rigged your barking up the wrong tree on the TAG, you would need to contact the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, because that would be interstate wire fraud.

yah well- you have never driven with me El Gen,.. i ALWAYS turn the wrong way, take the wrong street,.. ;) i like to call it " taking the scenic route" ;D Barking up the wrong tree is nothing new to me ;) after a while one begins to like it, and it actually becomes fun! ;D

Well rosity isn't going to do anything about it just now- no admin online and only 2 mods,....

How about stepping in and offering a) a reasonable, truthful explanation of this fiasco, and b) a solution that satisfies the membership and contestants, and c) a genuine apology for creating this mess. The longer you wait, the worse it looks.

x-post with Cheryle. Cripes. Time for bed.

Now Mosca you know that will never happen, this has been going on all day and no response. Why would they respond? They couldnt care less what we think.

Good night Mosca.

Okay folks, while filling out that form it will ask you for the company address and information, here it is so you won't be troubled to search all over for it. Owner of the Company is Tim Choate EdgeNet Media, LLC 6 Cadillac Dr Suite 260 Brentwood, TN 37027 US 615-371-0887

Should related links and pages be saved? in case threads dissapear?

Yep,for a situation like this, it is always best to save the threads in case you are contacted for further information regarding your complaint. :o) Jack

Did anyone save the poll and all the announcements (ur, mistakes?) about it? I can find no rules posted anywhere about this contest, other than this on the AOM page: "What is AOY? At the end of the year, one of the artist of the month will be selected for the title of Artist of the Year. (The prize will be announced closer to the event." While this doesn't say it will be a public vote, neither does it say the mods and admins will decide. Contests in which prizes of value are given away are supposed to have clear and concise rules. And they are not supposed to change midstream. Seems like this has happened before, though. Perhaps Renderosity should hire a contest consultant to keep them legal?

ok time to check the ol' internet temp files and cashe files...

Hmmm I went with the address that Renderosity.com is registered through... Either way, it does ask for the Company's Website address, so they'll know what company address to nail. Lord knows, the Post Office hates anything related to the Internet. Jack

Whats all the fuss about ???
Since man has decided to live in social groups and considered "voting" as a proper way of reaching a collective desicion, cheating has been part of it.
It is very natural and human also, that "Community leaders"
take "care"of individuals they believe in not to be good for the community.(Otherwise there would not be facilities for social correction)
History shows us that its done all the time,everywhere.
Is that fair ? Nope, but Mother Nature never developed the concept of "Fairness " in the harsh struggle for survival.
The Question asked is : Does it work sufficiantly to survive ?
Rosity has done a fair job on that, otherwise it would not exist.
As long as community members, even if angry, support it
and are willing to benefit from the services as well as live with the backdraws it must be considered as "Fit".

Everyone, not happy with what happend, still supporting
the community may it be with art, freebies and comments(qualified or not) is at least "Tolerating" the way it works and i doubt if thats any better than the actual cheating(if there was any cheating in the first place which just seems obvious but is not prooved), talking of ethics that is.
I have voted for AOY(not Legume lol) AND IM NOT HAPPY about not beeing considerd fit for Voting, but then again , seeing this desicion in the hand of someone deniying the puplic the right to vote instead of faking a set of stats decently to reach a goal,( i have seen that done elsewhere and no one noticed)
makes me see this with humor.
It would have spared them a lot of trouble and us folks a lot of writing,
shit happens
Dj

I voted too...always do. Cause it's the artISTS that Matter. ;) Passes Popcorn around....hm....looks like we need more...

Cheryle, "IIRC mods do NOT nominate for AOM, the members do " Actually, the Mods nominate the AOM artists and then we get to vote on the ones they chose. We used to be able to nominate artists for the AOM but after Legume won one month, the Administration changed the rules to make damn sure someone like HIM didn't ever win again. They changed the rules for the AOM because of Legume and now, it seems, they are changing them again. We vote for the AOM out of the Artists that the mods nominate so why in the heck is it that we don't get to vote for the AOY out of all the AOM winners. It is totally ridiculous to do it any other way which proves to me that somthing hokey is going on !

Ah thx for the clarification- i have been gone a while.

Public polls set up by mistake? If that is true, this site is truly run by amateurs. If it's not true, it's even worse, since they are lying to us... We have seen the pattern before (remember "the Big Merchant Forum Screw-Up"): 1. Amateurism and bad business decisions are exposed up-front to the members. 2. The members get angry. 3. Even more amateurism and lack of interpersonal skills are used to give lame excuses for what happened. 4. Members get more angry. (Repeat and fade...) Will the Renderosity staff and management ever learn?

What they've learned, apparently, is to hide in their cubicles and hope it all blows over soon.

And if it was a mistake how come it was up for almost 3 days???????????

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More like if they don't tow the line they will be spending Christmas in the job centre. The blame must ultimately lay with the Organgrinder not the Monkeys, and as it is the season of good will, I can only wish them the best of luck with their moral compromises. Now that I know that any accolade won here is totally worthless there is no longer any reason to bother about the outcome of AOY or any other glittering prize-fest on this site. "The price of everything and the value of nothing"? "God bless us, everyone!"

More like if they don't tow the line they will be spending Christmas in the job centre. The blame must ultimately lay with the Organgrinder not the Monkeys, and as it is the season of good will, I can only wish them the best of luck with their moral compromises. Now that I know that any accolade won here is totally worthless there is no longer any reason to bother about the outcome of AOY or any other glittering prize-fest on this site. "The price of everything and the value of nothing"? "God bless us, everyone!"

Maybe we should call up Domino's and send a few pizzas over to the Renderosity bunker...

Would that be Turkey pizzas? Better send a side order of wishbones.

Okay - i usually don't make any comments and stand aside when people argue about things like this. As far as i'm concerned - i don't give a **** if i was in that voting or not. The thing, why i'm at renderosity anyway is that i like to publish my "vicky templated **" for others to see. If the people like it - it's their "problem" really. :) Funny thing was that i didn't even knew this voting existed (since i don't read the frontpage that often LOL). One of my friends said to me that there's a vote for the AoY at Renderosity, just few hours before they pulled it out. Now, what pisses me off the most here is the fact, that i've been accused to be some sort of commerical puppet for renderosity - now that's the biggest **** i've heard for a long time. I don't get paid to publish my art here!!!! And for the Legume : I know that you've put up a campaing for people to vote you. I did that too on my site, as matter affact, the very same night when the poll was pulled out LOL so i guess i was a bit late for gaining votes from my campaing LOL. And IMHO - I don't mind you winning the voting - you do some original stuff instead of those stupid used up templates. And as for the voting : The public knows how to select the winner, if they are allowed to do so! So, it has been a very interesting debate and i hope it has a meaning too... It would be nice to be a Artist Of The Year - but not like this :| Besides, what difference does it make - i wouldn't gain anything about the nomination, except for the whole lotta cr that would be poured down on me if i won under this sort of circumstances.

ToxicAngel--you're right, and it's too bad; you probably would've won had things been allowed to run their course. I'm guessing the larger community would have rallied around and voted you in--which would've been fine; your work is technically amazing, and reflects the best of the prevailing aesthetic here. You said it best: "The public knows how to select the winner, if they are allowed to do so!"

Why should I make a complaint about this? Do you really want to close this place 'cause of one poll? I know there has been this kind of "errors" before but so what! It would be very sad if someones life depends on result of AOY poll.

My apologies if what I am about to say maybe steps on anyones' toes or causes anyone any form of grief. Although I might agree with the passion for members wishing to vote on their favorite artist of the year, is this not perhaps taking things a little to extremes? My goodness, I cannot believe the bitterness a possible little err "can" make; it does not take much to get folks aroused around here at all sometimes. Has the spirit of the season left everyone, or am I just imagining the ignorance here? So many are all very quick to defrock this place over something and make a bigger hackjob out of it all than it ever may really have been, and yet, have any of you ever thought that you all sound just like the "contraversy" you seem to accuse this place of? I have seen "instigators" in action before but some members here do have their very profound expertese. Although I can comprehend a concern in one way, I also believe that this might all well be a little far streeeeeeetched for entertainment value and motive based for a few at the sites expense and a bit of credibility bashing factor. Is this a delightful thought at Holiday Time or what?? Such goodwill among a forum full of otherwise creative, passionate, sensitive and sharing artistic members is almost too hard to swallow..give them a break will ya? I will not even mention what this does now to all those nominated and, "heavens", the outcome winner of all this at the end; nothing like taking away the feeling of "pride and joy" right from those that would deserve all this honor if that honor wasn't now so "undermined" and laced with contraversy for the benefit of some that seem to look for ulterior hanky panky. I suppose I did mention it, oh well. I ask you to think about how all these nominated artists must feel now, nevermind the site, now that all the signifigance of this contest might be reduced to a bag of wind to many rather than the sincere honor it all should have been. For so many artists, the ability to inspire seems to be very lacking among too many; if anything this kind of stuff can suck the inspiration value right out of any artist, or contest. This stuff would have been much better all done via e-mails or behind the scenes rather then openly devalueing so many and such an incredible honor.

if you don't want to make a complaint - then don't, those who want to make a complaint will.

Bottom line is this- there was a vote- there were prizes involved- they took the vote away. Possibly illegal.

"Do you really want to close this place 'cause of one poll?" Good Lord no. Who said anything about closing the place? I just want them to treat all members equally. You should, too. BillyJ--I'm certainly not responsible for "taking away the feeling of "pride and joy" right from those that would deserve all this honor if that honor wasn't now so "undermined" and laced with contraversy for the benefit of some that seem to look for ulterior hanky panky." That distinction lies with the admins--they yanked the poll, not me. "This stuff would have been much better all done via e-mails or behind the scenes..." That's happening, too, but my experience here has taught me that making a bit of a stink in public makes it much harder for the admins to ignore you.

Before you run off half-cocked to some lawyer, let me ask this. Was there anything more than a poll? Because honestly, all I get out of this was that the admin asked the members who they thought should be AoY. That does not constitute a contest. It had no mention of prizes or how the contest was to be decided (if there was even one planned), so how can there be fraud???

You know, beyond that, it really hurts me to see such hatred toward the community because of what you think the PTB did. There is so much good that comes out of this community, that it more than overshadows these small oversights. But I guess you all don't care about that. You just want to play the hero that brought justice to the "bad" guys. If it destroys the community, not your problem, right?

Court cases are expensive and messy, and often end in small sites (relatively) like this one being destroyed both financially and personally. But, hey not your money, and maybe not even your loss. After all, there are hundreds of art sites, eh? Or is this a ploy for another site to take over as Rosity's replacement?

I think Rosity should just dispense with the AoY, award a cash prize to all the AoM people and be done with it...But I guess that wouldn't be as much fun to watch, would it?

ShadowWind

"You just want to play the hero that brought justice to the "bad" guys. If it destroys the community, not your problem, right?" Please. Nobody's destroying the community--just trying to get the management to take a closer look at itself. All members should be treated equally, period. What's your deal, ShadowWind? Doesn't it bug you that a fellow member is being treated unfairly? "I think Rosity should just dispense with the AoY, award a cash prize to all the AoM people and be done with it...But I guess that wouldn't be as much fun to watch, would it?" Sounds good to me. OR, here's a revolutionary thought--why not just reinstate the polling and see what happens?

Hell Im ok with doing away with AOY, AOM, hot 20 and all the other popularity contests. THey dont mean squat if they arent run fairly. And nothing against Toxic Angel either. Your work is amazing and you would have made a very fine AOY. For that matter so would have Legume. The thing is, in the past AOY was voted on by the membership. THe poll was posted for 3 days this year. Now all of a sudden the admin decided that they would choose who AOY is because the artist THEY wanted MIGHT not win. Remember Toxic was still in the lead and there was plenty of voting left to go. He very well might have won. Hell someone might have come from behind and taken it, it was a difficult decision to vote for one artist they all were good! Now there are NO winners. It has become a sham. DO I want to see Rosity go down in flames? NO. Am I pissed that I took the time to vote and now am told my vote doesnt count? You're damned right!

Mosca,
I don't know how to answer that without violating the TOS in my reply. I have nothing against Legume, and as I said, he does controversy better than anyone, BUT, I'm sorry I can't feel bad for his being treated unfairly. He's said several times that his goal was to piss people off. Several people I knew were victims of the Joke Patrol and left. Were they treated fairly? So if that is the tact that he's chosen, then he's got to be realize it might come back to haunt him some time. I just see this as cause and effect and Renderosity trying to avoid still another venture into this whole mess that seems to continue every few months.

Again, did Rosity screw up? That depends on what was said on that screen. Do you have a right to bitch? Of course, never said you didn't. I just don't think that getting the courts involved is worth anything but the destruction of this community.

ShadowWind

"I just don't think that getting the courts involved is worth anything but the destruction of this community." You won't find me advocating legal action in any of these threads. My hope is that R'osity will listen to what the member-customers are saying and do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because the State of Tennessee is making them.

Shadowwind it's not just this- it's every time! every time they run a contest they do this. Nothing catches their attentio nm you see things the way you do and will deal with them the way you think you must, and so will i. A little attention would not hurt this place one bit- it would not be the destruction of this place.

Well shadow I think too much has been made of who the winner might be and not enough on the fairness of what happened. No one will be a winner here. There were more contestants than Legume and Toxic. Whos to say one of the other artists wouldnt have won? Voting had only been going on for a couple(3?)days. There were many great artists there, I know it was hard for me to chose just one. So who would have or should have won is secondary to how the contests on this site are run. Right now I dont think anyone believes that the contests here will be run fairly without bias. I know I dont. Rosity just negated everyone who took the time to vote. Are there prizes for AOY this year? I dont know, there were in the past. Is there a lawsuit looming over this? I dont know but there is certainly the possibility. My question would be, why is it soooooo hard for Rosity to do ANYTHING anymore without screwing it up? It doesnt take a genius to figure out that when you start a poll for AOY, then take away the members chance to vote there will be a big stink about it. Why can we see that but admin cant?

"Several people I knew were victims of the Joke Patrol and left. Were they treated fairly?" I'm not sure there's any point in rehashing it; there were excesses on both sides. And no one, I mean NO one, was subjected to as much personal attack in that period as Legume. It's all there in his gallery.

Well do what you must, but having seen court cases rip sites like this apart first hand, and not always winning judgements, I just urge you to think very carefully about whether reporting these to authorities is worth the cost Cheryle.

I agree Mosca that this shouldn't escalate that high. However, what the customer-members want is a matter of perspective. We only know what's going on in these threads. We don't know what is being said in other venues, by email, IM, etc, by other members who may be on the other side of this issue and be just as passionate as you are. Someone is going to be disappointed at the end of this, which is why I think they should quit while they are behind and reward prizes to all AoM winners. Putting back the poll at this point is not going to give a fair shot to anyone. Too much press, to much excitement to ever get an honest assessment. So the right thing, may not be my interpretation, your interpretation or anyone elses.

And yes Cheryle, I agree, that getting rid of these would solve a lot of their problems, since people can't seem to play nice on either side of the playground...

And this is the last I'm gonna say on this matter. It's not in our hands now, but the PTB, so I'm just gonna have my holiday and try to be worry free...

Laterz
ShadowWind

Happy Christmas, Shadow.

Maybe R'osity should conduct a poll about what to do about the poll? Uhhhhh.... never mind.

lol Mosca!

Hehe, whoops said I'd be quiet. I wasn't here... :)

group hug :) LOL

Woohoo a hug from Lady Jaiven! Now I need a cold shower! 8-)

LOL! :D

Nice to see you Lady. I hope your doing well. Have a great Christmas and a safe and happy new year!

Always nice to see you, Spirit, and you have a great Christmas and New Year too :) Gosh seems like it JUST turned 2002.. can't believe in less than 10 days, it's gonna be a brand new year. Time sure does fly.

Enough of the niceness already! Get back to the fighting ;-)

To all members, I have been out of town since friday evening, so that is why I am responding late. The AOY was all my fault. Our process for the AOY is for admins and mods to vote on the AOMs of the year. This is how we did it last year and was suppose to do it this year. I told one of our new admin incorrectly and did not realize it until friday - 2 days after the voting had started. This is no other admins fault except for mine. I will make no excuses other than to give an apology.

Last year it was open to member vote. Trevor was winning, then there was some sort of discrepancy about the voting. The votes were redistributed. But it was voted for on the members.

Yes, that is correct. Once we found the decrepancy, we changed the process to mods and admins voting for the AOY to decrease any tampering of the process. I messed it up. tammy

You missed posting on thread 5 there.

Thanks. I posted. tammy

Is your statement the end of the matter tammymc? There is hiatus in your posting that must necessarily be filled with answers to the many questions raised in the threads relating to this matter. Perhaps you could start an open debate, in a new thread, on how the membership could be involved in a more meaningful way with the polling for competitions, contests etc. There are only so many doors that can be closed to the membership before everyone is completely shut out of the community. With respect. Brendan.

We have yet to come up with a perfect system for AOM and AOY. The members vote for AOM and therefore do have the overall input in who makes it to the AOY. We have tried different methods over the last 2 years and this current one seems to be the most fair that we have found. We are always interested in how we could make it a better, fair system. If you have input on the process, I would be interested in sharing it with the team. thanks tammy

Well my input is this, if we arent responsible or worthy of voting on AOY, why let us vote on AOM? Hell why bother even having this silly popularity contest now that we know the outcome is tainted? Do you expect us to believe that the staff will objectivly pick AOY? Not likely. At the time the poll was pulled Toxic was winning and Legume was coming on strong. Does Legume have an equal chance winning now that staff is doing the picking? LMAO yeah right.How about Gevidal? He works with Bryce, not a big money maker here so..... Now would Toxic make a great AOY? Yes he would his work is amazing. But whoever wins now it will look bad. Period. And that is too bad, all of the AOM'S were terrific. When I VOTED, it was a tough decision.

Spiritbro77, I've read that comment "Do you expect us to believe that the staff will objectivly pick AOY? Not likely" or similar in a couple of other threads, and I have to say that I for one find it to be rather offensive. Probably about as offensive as you obviously find the current situation. The impression you give is that you think we're all just looking at the balance sheet or thinking about who pissed us off this year. You are very wrong if you think that's how it is. What has happened is unfortunate, I agree, but Tammy has had the balls to step up and admit she made a mistake. But that counts for very little doesn't it? After all, if the apology were to be accepted there would be one less thing left to fight over wouldn't there? As to your "worthiness to vote" issue, let's be brutally frank shall we? Of all the members here, the VAST majority are honest and wouldn't dream of trying to rig a vote. But there is a small minority of members here who take every opportunity to try to derail things and spend a lot of time bitching about this or that aspect of how the site is run. It is ultimately they, not the site administration, who caused the change of policy. For what it's worth, I'd like AOY to be a popular vote, but since it was fiddled with last year it was changed. Rather than trying to turn this into a members v. staff issue why not throw the crap in the direction of the minority who caused this change in the first place? Kevin.

There has been a new link created to move past the "bitching" stage of this situation and to work on creative and fair solutions to this situation as Tammy has suggested. Jack

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1016109

damn these threads are long....

Well,Kbennit I don't mean to offend you or anyone else.Im pissed that my vote was nullified. I don't know about any rigging of contests or anything like that. The thing is, in the past AOY was voted on by the membership, nothing was posted that I ever saw changing that. When the post came up I took the time to vote. Then it was pulled. If it was truly a mistake then it is too bad it happened. As for the staff being fair and unbiased well some may be, but if you look through these threads you will see that some clearly arent.Suspending X2000 for bringing up a past mistake in the handling of contests isn't to even handed when far worse things are said on this site everyday.No offense to you or any of the staff personally, I just have some major problems with some of the DECISIONS the staff has been making and as a member of this site I feel I should be able to address those concerns. Cool?

Oh and one other thing,a while ago admin went to a committee format to decide the nominations for AOM for whatever reason.Now I am informed that there is no committee anymore, one guy is making these decisions. Is this true?

Yeah, cool ;) Last I heard AOM was still done by committee, I'll check though.

Attached Link: Proposed Changes to AOY voting

Perhaps discussing how the voting can be changed to make it more equitable and palatable in the future would prove somewhat beneficial? There seems to be many sides still discussing the issue, yet very few participating in offering up a potential solution. If we, as members, cannot decide how this year's AOY will be chosen, we can at least make a constructive change to the system to ensure this does not happen again. R'osity's ability to work with the members on a solution, after requesting input, will clearly show their true intentions.

"But there is a small minority of members here who take every opportunity to try to derail things and spend a lot of time bitching about this or that aspect of how the site is run. It is ultimately they, not the site administration, who caused the change of policy." And who would you be referring to, exactly? Would one of them be among the contestants for AOY, by any chance? You can't say, on the one hand, that the policy change was not about trying to exclude people who pissed off the admins, and then in the same breath say it was. Oh, wait--you just did.

Try reading what I said again Mosca. And try reading it carefully. And then try to comment on it without twisting it to say what you want it to say.

I think I got it about right, kbennett. You might try addressing the customers in a less hostile and patronizing tone. You might also try answering my two questions--who are you referring to when you talk about a "a small minority of members here who take every opportunity to try to derail things and spend a lot of time bitching about this or that aspect of how the site is run"? Is it your feeling that Legume is one of those people, or isn't it? If so, what you're saying is that Legume is responsible for the rule change--i.e., the rule was changed because of him. If not, then the answer is to address the voting issue--make it cheat proof and start over. There's no reason not to let the members vote if cheating isn't an issue. As part of the management team, you're sending a very mixed message--was the voting yanked because of last year's voting irregularities, or was it yanked because the bitchers and derailers appeared to be winning?

"You might try addressing the customers in a less hostile and patronizing tone." I usually do. I only tend to get sharp when somebody twists what I say. "You might also try answering my two questions--who are you referring to when you talk about a ..." I'm referring to those folks who take every opportunity take a mistake we make (and yes, of course we do, you and I both know that from past experience) and turn it into some sort of conspiracy theory or crusade. "Is it your feeling that Legume is one of those people, or isn't it? " No, it isn't. I don't see Legume as a troublemaker. He sometimes raises issues that are difficult, sure, but I reckon he does it to make people think, not to cause trouble. "There's no reason not to let the members vote if cheating isn't an issue." Well we agree on one thing at least ;) If a reliable method can be found I'm sure the admin team would be happy for an open vote. At least I'd hope that that was the case. If I seem to be sending a mixed message, I'm sorry. As Tammy has already stated, the voting method for AOY was changed becaused of last year's voting irregularities.

"I'm referring to those folks who take every opportunity take a mistake we make (and yes, of course we do, you and I both know that from past experience) and turn it into some sort of conspiracy theory or crusade." So... I'M responsible for the AOY poll being pulled? Somehow the admins read my mind and KNEW I was going to question their decision before it even happened and THAT's why it was pulled? God, now I'm really confused. "Well we agree on one thing at least ;) If a reliable method can be found I'm sure the admin team would be happy for an open vote. At least I'd hope that that was the case." See the "fixing the process" thread, above. Seems like a fairly simple thing to do--I mean, you guys already have a method for weeding out clone votes, right? Not as simple as setting up the poll, encouraging people to vote, then yanking the poll midway, I guess, but still--not brain surgery, either. "If I seem to be sending a mixed message, I'm sorry. As Tammy has already stated, the voting method for AOY was changed becaused of last year's voting irregularities." I love the euphemism: "the voting method for AOY was changed." It wasn't changed, it was eliminated. There's no "voting process" if management pick the winner. And no one has addressed the apparent disconnect with the AOM voting process--if it's ok for members to vote for (but not to nominate, anymore) AOM, why can't they vote for AOY? Makes no sense, kbennett. If management doesn't want people to bitch, maybe they should try a little harder to avoid the appearance that they're discriminating against particular members.

"So... I'M responsible for the AOY poll being pulled?..." Did I say that? No, I didn't. I've been reading the thread with ideas on how to fix things. There have been some good suggestions there, but as has been pointed out by others they all have problems. Weeding out clones isn't as straightforward as just matching IP addresses. If it was, you can bet it would have been done already, and we wouldn't be in this pickle. I don't know how it works in the US, but over here in the UK it would be a simple matter for me to sign up with 10 or 20 dialup ISP's. That would get me 20 different IP addresses right off, and if you assume that they're using dynamic addressing that's potentially 20 clones PER DAY that I could create and vote with. Not to mention the 200+ machines I manage at work, each with their own static IP. So maybe it's not brain surgery to come up with an answer, but it's a hell of a lot harder than just adding a few lines of code. On to euphemisms. Management aren't simply picking a winner and telling us who it is. There is still a vote going on, though lamentably it's not open to the whole membership at the moment. Each admin and mod has one vote, and the nominee with the greatest number of votes will be the winner. This is what I was referring to when I originally said "The impression you give is that you think we're all just looking at the balance sheet or thinking about who pissed us off this year. You are very wrong if you think that's how it is." Meaning that we place a vote based on the work of the artist, not on how much money they brought in to the MP or who they annoyed in the past. And it's also not about not wanting people to bitch. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that after an explanation and an apology that people should stop trying to make a situation worse by trying to read more into it than there really is.

"And yet here we are." Unfortunately, yes. I don't expect people not to bitch Doc, I really do understand how pissed of people are that the vote they took the time to place or expected to place disappeared on them, and I don't think anyone wants to stifle what needs to be said. This whole situation has the potential to turn into an almighty shit-fest, and is heading that way already. I'm just trying to do a little explaining, trying to correct some of the misinformation and conspiracy theorising that's happening. As much as I can anyway being 'apparently' a mod. I honestly don't think politics has anything to do with the poll being removed.

In other words: There's nothing worse than working your butt off for little or no pay. To do somethng nice for a bunch of people you don't even know. Only to have them use it against you later on. Humans.......Blech#!@.......who needs em'

You reading my mind Scott? ;)

I was attempting to Kb. I'm studying to be a Jedi. And this is my homework. ;-)

"... after an explanation and an apology ..." That's part of the problem- an apology not acompanied by a change in behavior is worthless. To just say "oops sorry" then not change anything is worthless. It's like me bumping you into a wall 9 times a day- saying oops sorry every time. Does that make it better? no- would saying oops sorry , then taking care to not bump into you again make it better? yes. "There's nothing worse than working your butt off for little or no pay." If one is getting no pay then it's a hobby. If one is getting little pay, then either one is ok with the wages they are receiving or it is time to move on. That was the choice that was made.

STILL no response to the AOM/AOY disparity--why can members be trusted to vote for (but not nominate, post-Legume) AOM, but not AOY? Why should clone voting be less an issue for AOM than AOY? And call me naive, but I can't imagine anyone paying for 20 ISP accounts just so they can vote for Legume. AND, you haven't addressed the idea of closing AOY voting to brand-new members--how many lines of code would that require?

Jeez, Mosca, I'm a mod, not an admin. I can't answer everything. :( I don't have an answer about the AOM/AOY disparity. I wish I did. As for 20 ISP accounts, over here most charge for calls by the minute at a fairly similar rate, so it wouldn't actually cost anything to run 20 different accounts. And as far as closing the voting to members who join after the poll opens, please give us a while to go over the ideas that are coming up. If we give a knee-jerk reaction we're going to look even worse in your eyes.

Thanks. Tell the admins they'd do well to keep the customer-members involved in the process. Am I being confrontational? I thought I was just being direct. People are so easily threatened...

Quick question KB - is the AOM Committee still in place and running?

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewLink=391

Yo 'Bear. Nope, the nominations come from the mod team. See da link.

Attached Link: Special committee to not let you nominate AOM

Interesting. When was that one changed? And where was the announcement made, Kb? Mano... I'm not giving **you** a hard time in particular, I hope you understand... you just happen to be the mod here actually responding to posts. [Bad habit boy - I trained ya better than that. Ya get's nuffin but grief - grief ah say. ;)] This is why whenever something like this pops up, IMO, ya'll catch so much grief: you set up a process/policy in the midst of much controversy, and then you change it without notice, post no announcements on the changes, disband proceedures.... And then invariably someone drops in a quote here or there that "they're listening to members input". ;] Ditto on this business here, kiddo. It may have "been decided 11 months ago" to follow a new format on AOY... so ummm... it was announced where? Posted where? Right next to the announcements on dropping the AOM comittee proceedure, maybe? ;] And then you *seriously* wonder why Mosca or a few other people ask questions in a controversial tone, bud? Heh - as Mosca said, sometiems seems those are the only questions that actually get a response, even if it's just from one of the firefighters like you [and like I used to be here] trying to put out the flame war. Glad it's you in that position, kb, and not me any more. And wish it wasn't either of us.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

gimace Nope, I don't wonder at all. I just wish that, for once, members and staff could have a civil debate about what's wrong and try to fix it. There's fault on both sides of the fence here of course. Conspiracy theories and speculation don't help get things resolved, and neither does silence from the staff. (That'll probably earn me a stern word or two but it bears saying.)

Hey! I wuz ceevil Senor Beennet. ;] Hell, you know as well as I do it wouldn't cut out all of the rants, but when there is a major change in how a site fixture is done, running a front page article and FN&TC contact thread on it couldn't possibly hurt. That way people aren't blindsided, you have something you can point to and say "It's not new, it was announced here and here six months ago and we all argued about it", and people like me can't dig out links and go "Noooo.... that's not what you guys said here". ;] Ok... belay that last. You'll still get people like me saying that - but then you can safely tell us to piss off. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

You sure wuz ;) Here's a thought. And it is only a thought, but I'll put it to the admin team: what if there was an 'Announcements' forum that all could read but only staff could post to? That way there'd be a permanent record for all to see, and if there needed to be any debate on an announcement it could be done here in FNTC.

Might work. 'Course, you'll still lose the "if it's not posted in Poser forum it doesn't exist because Poser forum is the Center of the Known Universe" people, but Wah. They'll live. ;] Just not the Tavern. Admin's running in and out hammering up announcements ruins one's drinking.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

God, no. They might look in the cash register ;)

Naaaahhhh... you're safe on that one. I took it with me when I left. ;] Oh wait - you got a NEW one? You foolish child. Never ring up drinks. That's what the chalk board was for. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Have I been less than civil? If so, mea culpa, gentlemen. Not my aim to start a flamewar--and truth be told, I don't think I've espoused any conspiracy theories; though I have remarked at length on appearances, and what seem to be inconsistancies in the official explanation. Anyway, nothing personal--I guess it's just in my nature to ask difficult questions.

Im upset that the AOM nomination process was changed again! No announcement was made about it either. I wasn't happy the nomination process was taken away from members in the first place and now its changed again? How many people are nominating AOM now? As IB says this just looks bad. Conspiracy? I don't know about that but it LOOKS BAD! It looks as if you guys change the rules as you go along and that's not good.

Noooo... Mosca, I've read damned near every post, and I wouldn't call you uncivil in any of them. shrug Heated in a couple, but "heated" is NOT a bad thing in all discussions, no matter how many people would like to paint it as such.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Exactly IB if we werent heated it would mean we didnt give a shit. I wish the PTB would see it like that.

Yeah, at least ya'll. I'm afraid I no longer give a damn. I'm just watching the "one more time round the block, same shit, different day" show.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Attached Link: Proposed Changes to AOY voting

kbennett, You and I seem to get along well in the H/T forum; hopefully that carries some weight. A simple request: Have someone on the "inside" post to the suggestion thread and help to lead us to a mutually satisfactory solution. People tend to "whine about the whiners" yet when there is an attempt to change that behavior no one appears to pay attention. As "outsiders", we can only speculate on what can be done from our perspective. Only a two-way civil discussion is ever going to achieve anything. And, yes, I understand that this progression is detered somewhat by the Holiday Season; which is one reason I have not P&M'd about no "official posts" in the thread yet. The members were asked about helping R'osity and it would be nice if a two-way converstaion was initiated. With all of us putting our heads together, (and I do not mean in the same orifice) ;0), a suitable resolution could be made. There are members from many walks-of-life and I am sure that - collectively - we could come to a compromise.

Yeah I hear ya IB Im getting there myself. SSDD seems to be the order of the day around here. I still have a little hope but its going fast!

usted tienen gusto de algunos chalupas con su mierda del toro, Spirit? Heh heh. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

There goes IB and his "chalupas" again. ;0) Usted come en Taco Bell, oso del hierro?

I try and avoid Taco Hell, Cyber - but I love the commercials with that damned smart ass chihuahua. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Ok well that one went over my head! I dont speak a word of Spanish, but if you say so Ill buy it IB lol.

"Would you like some chalupas to go weeth your bullshit today, Spirit?" <----- IB the semi-lingual. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Ah I see, Id rather put a hold on the Bullshit thank you, but the chalupas sound nice. Got any hot sauce? If your not sweating you're not eating!

Hiya CS ;) I've been reading that thread since it started, and there are some good ideas in it. I haven't posted there myself because I don't carry enough clout to make definite statements about what we can or can't achieve, it'll take someone from admin to do that, but I will certainly highlight the thread for the admin folks to take a look at. I still hope that we can find an acceptable solution to this.

well, kbennett, last I knew the mods/admins were "members" too, so you could always post 1) to show that there is an "inside" interest, and 2) to participate in the discussion. You are not getting off the hook that easily just because you do not hold the keys to the kingdom. ;0)