Suddenly the AOY voting area and stats are gone from the front page. Wtf? Does this mean voting's suddenly/arbitrarily closed? Does this mean the PTB don't want us to view the stats? I have to say, unless there's a pretty good explanation, this looks pretty freakin fishy.

Maybe they're getting worried that Legume is going to be artist of the year ;) he got my vote anyway.

They never meant for us to vote for AOY, it was a mistake for them to put it up for voting. It is easier for them to vote in who they want instead of allowing we mere peasants to have any say in it. They will tell us what is good for us and we will like it mister !!! From Heir Tim, "Guys, RR Admins and Mods vote for the AOY. That's been the plan for some time. It was a mistake to set it up as a public poll and we apologize for the confusion. TC"

Any more this site is becoming just a huge joke.

"That's been the plan for some time" Can anyone say bullshit? The "right" artist might not have won so they change the rules as they go along. That poll was up for quite a while, all of a sudden you figure out that its on the FRONT PAGE and say thats a mistake? Bullshit.

Right, Spirit. The message is that all contests are closed to non-vendors; and they're ESPECIALLY closed to big, scary freaks like Legume. This is, I have to say, disappointingly typical of the admins and their desire to appear slickly "corporate" at all costs. No wonder there's so little actual art in the galleries--it's not allowed.

Yep Mosca, at one time I thought this was an ART site that happened to have a Marketplace. Now I know that this is a Marketplace that happens to have a gallery.

Perhaps they could change the site motto to "... because the sales matter"?

"That's been the plan for some time" That's a legitimate excuse since there was "some time" there that Legume might actually win it. Remember: "...it depends on what your definition of 'is' is."

Spiritbro77 in #7: >Now I know that this is a Marketplace that happens to >have a gallery. You're surprized by that? You're here to showcase the vendor's software. You are an advertizement. The message is "look through the gallerys and see what amazing things XYZ software can do! See how much fun these people are having, and how popular they are! Look at all the supportive and helpful comments they receive! You could be just like them!" That's why the Pink Pony is such a fart in the christening basin. IYAM.

Actually ASalina your right, nothing should surprise me about this site. Just when I think Ive seen rock bottom they prove me wrong.

God, you know, don't you people ever look outside these forums? I've seen a total of maybe 15 people out of 100,000 bitch about this AoY thing. Whenever Rosity makes some decision, that maybe there are a couple of protest images in the gallery. That tells me that a majority of this site seems to be more concerned with sharing their passion for art, the friendships they make, the "escape" if you will, that this community ultimately offers, then what happened to a poll that most consider to be bogus and popularity/politically manipulated anyway.

ScottA said, "Don't like it, leave..." and everybody went, "No, we don't want to leave!!!" Why not? Probably because like the other people, you too enjoy coming here for whatever reason and wouldn't want to see Renderosity fold anymore than anyone else. Look how many people have come back after they said, "Goodbye forever..." when they couldn't find a community like this out there. You know, it truly touchs my heart to see the outpouring of support for not only the art, but the people's lives behind the art. That is what makes it a community, not the fact that it has a store or any single policy decision.

I'm not naive. I know that renderosity is the business because it has to be one in order to maintain a comfortable income range to support the community that it has tried so hard to create for us. Servers are expensive, as is bandwidth, staff, etc. And some of those decisions, are based on the goal of providing that community for all, are not always the right one in somebody's eyes. This tends to be looked upon by a small amount of people as selling out or "corporate" crap, but it's this "corporate" crap that gives you and I a place to be having this conversation...

Legume is an artist that we all remember and I have nothing personal against his artwork. I think he does controversy better than anyone else, with both style and tongue in cheek humor. However, I do think that Renderosity was afraid he would win, and thus pulled the poll. It makes sense from a business point of view, which again is the goal, if the community is to survive. After all, does the public really want Jack Sh$t to be the new Rosity spokesperson because some people think he's cool? This isn't Congress or Parliament or whatever government one has, it's a private web site with their own goals, goals of survival and to keep the most people happy. I think the sooner people accept that, the better. Is the whole thing fair? No, but then who said life was fair? It was equally as unfair to the other artists that Legume was campaigning (which is where I first heard about the AoY being voted on) in his gallery image for Jack Sh$t. Should you bitch? Heck yeah...How can the admin know how people feel unless they say something. It is, in the end, no one else's decision but their own.

I think that these contests always wind up this way and are nothing but trouble for both Rosity and those that seem to follow them...If it were up to me, I'd find some other way to showcase artists...

My 2c
ShadowWind
Flame you say? I'm a little deaf in my right ear. Speak louder next time...

Again, very slowly: I'm a longtime member, longtime customer here, someone who supports the "community" with my MP purchases. Yes, I like the site--it is one of my favorite wastes of time. Yes, I feel that I have a legitimate interest in urging management to run the site in a fair, evenhanded and responsive manner. The "fuck you, it's a business" argument (how many times have we all heard that lately?) looks a lot less persuasive when you remind people that yes, it's a reasonably successful, small, retail business--not exactly Exxon--and as such depends on the CUSTOMERS for its income. Where I'm from, it's never good business practice to piss off your customers, ANY of them, even the ones you're convinced are hopeless pains in the ass: partly because of the damage they can do to your business by publicly throwing a shitfit in your store, and partly because of the time and energy it takes to deal with them when they're foaming at the mouth. Sooner or later the admin staff are going to have to come out of their cubicles and talk to us, and it's not going to be easy for them (which is why they're still avoiding the issue--hoping it'll just go away). If this matter isn't properly resolved, I won't leave--I'll just let my wallet do the talking and stop buying from the marketplace. It's a matter of principle and fair play (and possibly legal obligation--see below), and I'll do what I can within the TOS to keep this issue front burner till the PTB step forward and explain themselves.

"You're here to showcase the vendor's software. You are an advertizement." Again, ASalina, wonderfully well said. R'osity is in the business of selling paint-by-numbers sets; Legume's all about coloring outside the lines.

Well, I think it's sad that the vote was taken away from the community but I hoestly can't blame them for wanting to. This is much more serious than the AOM voting, if I remember correctly from last year, the winner gets alot of things like a paid expense trip to Siggraph among other things. That doesn't come cheap and it stands to reason also that every time any of us buy anything at the marketplace we are helping to fund all the goodies that the AOY will get. Personally I can't fault them for not wanting to waste community resources on a person who has dedicated himself to trying to destroy the community. And yes I know, supposedly he was trying to "improve" the community with all his little protests, but more often than not back when this was a big deal it was obvious to most everyone that his main interest was really the attention he was getting from all of it, not the community itself. I'm all for protest as long as the protesters keep the real goal in sight and I don't think you can say that for Legume, maybe at first but definitely not in the end and certainly not now. If it is true that any of our pruchases have anything to do with the funding for the AOY then I would have to say that I wouldn't want that man to have Jack Shit if it mean a penny needed for it had to come out of my pocket. Even so, on a side to note Mosca, didn't you admit to rigging the top 20 some time back with who knows how many fake accounts just to help support your friend here? How are we to even know if the figures in the poll were even acurate?(and no I'm not acusing you, I'm just making everyone else think) Melissa

" If it is true that any of our pruchases have anything to do with the funding for the AOY then I would have to say that I wouldn't want that man to have Jack Shit if it mean a penny needed for it had to come out of my pocket." Then you should have voted for who you wanted to win, and encouraged your freinds to vote too. "it was obvious to most everyone that his main interest was really the attention he was getting from all of it" I thought that was part of the purpose of this site, to gain exposure for it's members. "Well, I think it's sad that the vote was taken away from the community but I hoestly can't blame them for wanting to. " Then they never should have put it up for a vote in the first place. Once a contest has been started- then changed mid stride- it is definately borderline illegal. And nothing wrong with asking the authorities to look into this, just to make sure it's on the up and up. "How are we to even know if the figures in the poll were even acurate?" Last years AOY was surrounded in controversy of just that nature- it was alledged that a member was winning the AOY through multiple accounts and clones, then the poll was pulled everyones votes nulled and redistributed to however the PTB decided to redistribute them (i dont remember exactly how they decided to redistribute them but i can look it up). SO if last year is any example- yes they can track and find ut if it's clone accounts etc. Rosity just needs to quit having contests, They don't have a clue how to run them. I don't think i can remember one where there was no controversy surrounding it.

It's kinda like that old saying- if you don't want to hear the answer- don't ask the question- well they asked the question (Vote for AOY) they didn't like the answer, so they tried to remove the question

Honey, I voted for ToxicAngel, he was winning anyway and I did encourage those I know to vote too(for whoever they wanted to vote for). I thought that was part of the purpose of this site, to gain exposure for it's members. I'm sure that is one of the many purposes of this site, my point which seems to have eluded you is that a protester should remain true to his cause if he wants to be taken seriously, that is why I don't take Legume seriously. Then they never should have put it up for a vote in the first place. Once a contest has been started- then changed mid stride- it is definately borderline illegal. And nothing wrong with asking the authorities to look into this, just to make sure it's on the up and up. Last years AOY was surrounded in controversy of just that nature- it was alledged that a member was winning the AOY through multiple accounts and clones, then the poll was pulled everyones votes nulled and redistributed to however the PTB decided to redistribute them (i dont remember exactly how they decided to redistribute them but i can look it up). SO if last year is any example- yes they can track and find ut if it's clone accounts etc. both points true and I agree it would have been better to have not had the poll to start with, perhaps it was just a miscommunication or some sort within the staff or who knows why, but even if it wasn't I can't say I blame them for wanting to pull the poll... Melissa

"Personally I can't fault them for not wanting to waste community resources on a person who has dedicated himself to trying to destroy the community." Well, they're my resources, too, by that logic, and I'd like to see them distributed fairly, according to the wishes of the membership. If R'osity doesn't like the potential outcome, they shouldn't hold the competition. And if this really IS the issue--Legume's unsuitability as the R'osity poster boy--then they should just come out and say so and not hide behind some lame, half-hearted excuse. They should NOT change horses in midstream when it looks like things might not go their way--especially, as you say, when there are prizes involved. And I really have to challenge the assertion that Legume is trying to "destroy the community." Legume is just being Legume--always pushing the envelopes of politics and good taste, always trying to push the buttons of the easily offended. That's what he does, and if people are offended by him, there are (were) 11 other contestants they could've voted for. "Even so, on a side to note Mosca, didn't you admit to rigging the top 20 some time back with who knows how many fake accounts just to help support your friend here? How are we to even know if the figures in the poll were even acurate?(and no I'm not acusing you, I'm just making everyone else think)" Yep, I got a little carried away by the whole C&D, Hot 20 Joke Patrol thing, and though it seemed all part of the comedy at the time it was an error in judgment--certainly not something I'd do again. If clone voting was the issue here, I assume the admins would've said so. They haven't.

"my point which seems to have eluded you is that a protester should remain true to his cause if he wants to be taken seriously, that is why I don't take Legume seriously." Lots of things elude me- shrug but i am better off that way and happier ;) And as far as being a protest with the pink ponies- my kids and freinds loved the images LOL they had no idea it was a protest- actually i didn't either at first- i just thought they were funny and original LOL - again- back to that lots of things elude me- but then- maybe that's why i thught they were so fun to look at- shrug Once the poll was up- they should have just left it and let it run it's course. It would have been a lot less damaging in the long run. Yah there would have been long threads for both sides of the issue- but it would have been the membes and NOT the site involved. As it stands now- they just opened a whole new can of worms

okay, well I won't make the same point twice, just read what I said above your post and that should also cover what you had to say to me..:) Melissa

Lots of things elude me- shrug but i am better off that way and happier ;) And as far as being a protest with the pink ponies- my kids and freinds loved the images LOL they had no idea it was a protest- actually i didn't either at first- i just thought they were funny and original LOL - again- back to that lots of things elude me- but then- maybe that's why i thught they were so fun to look at- shrug There was alot more to this protest than just the pink ponies, I seem to remember an image of Mr. Fluffers taking a dive into the Twin towers and yet another entitled "Vicky washes her Stinky Pussy".....anyway, the end result is that this all became about Legume, not freedom of speech and just by your statement above you've proven my point even better than I could have..:) Melissa

your point eludes me......

my point exactly..

and that means what? and what does that have to do with the fact that i took time to vote in a contest and it was pulled. How or why i voted is my business, and has nothing to do with anything else, except that i voted for who i wanted to. What goes on in the artists head when they make the pictures really doesnt matter to me. Why they make their pictures doesn't matter to me. What matters in this case is: A Contest poll was put up- the PTB didnt like the results they were seeing so they pulled - definately unethical if not illegal.

This really isn't about the relative merits (or not) of Legume's work. It's a fairness issue--should the site offer a prize and then withdraw it because one of the potential winners annoys them? If they want to give a present to someone whose work better fits their unwritten inoffensiveness guidelines, fine, give them a present. But let's not call it a contest. Let's call a spade a spade, if there's still any doubt, and post in big, block letters on the front page that Legume, alone among all members, is not entitled to and will not be awarded any prize in any contest, ever again. Anything less is cowardly and dishonest, in my view.

it means exactly what it says...don't try to read anything more into it or you'll just make your head hurt. YOu're right, who you voted for is your business, no one's disputing that in any way. I acutally do agree with you about the poll but from an opposing persective, it's a shame that the vote had to be taken away from the community because so few within it actually recognize real talent and skill and only resond to those who draw the most attention to themselves... Melissa

"it's a shame that the vote had to be taken away from the community because so few within it actually recognize real talent and skill and only resond to those who draw the most attention to themselves..." Right--the great unwashed can't be trusted to make the simplest decisions.

This really isn't about the relative merits (or not) of Legume's work. It's a fairness issue--should the site offer a prize and then withdraw it because one of the potential winners annoys them? If they want to give a present to someone whose work better fits their unwritten inoffensiveness guidelines, fine, give them a present. But let's not call it a contest. Let's call a spade a spade, if there's still any doubt, and post in big, block letters on the front page that Legume, alone among all members, is not entitled to and will not be awarded any prize in any contest, ever again. Anything less is cowardly and dishonest, in my view. How do you know that it isn't? It could be about that as well as a few other things including the desire for someone who better represents the community or it could be about none of those things, we really do not know. I am also disappointed that the poll was taken away. I would much rather have seen toxicAngel win by popular vote than hope that the PTB decides that he wins but unfortunately that didn't happen. Hell, if you want to make a comparison in terms of artistic skill, AND contributions to the community it's still clear who should win if it came down to those too people and I don't even know the guy personally. Melissa

"I acutally do agree with you about the poll but from an opposing persective, it's a shame that the vote had to be taken away from the community because so few within it actually recognize real talent and skill and only resond to those who draw the most attention to themselves... Melissa" I'm a bit offended you think I can't recognize real talent just because I voted for Legume. Art isn't all PAINTING talent and skill with pixels you know. No, I don't like all of his stuff, some of it is offensive. But some of it isn't too. Have you even looked at it all? Some artists we recognize now as great artists, weren't thought great artists by their peers at the time they were living either. I think to many people look at his art with prior bias. You see different because you don't want to see anything good when you look at his art. PS: Yes, ToxicAngel is a very good artist. But then again, it doesn't draw forth any emotion in me either. With Legume's art some have disgusted me, some have brought a tear to my eye, some make me go hmmm..., and some make me laugh.

Melissa, I really don't think the "real talent and skill" remark is warranted at all. Although artists may have various styles and/or originalities, often times exactly THAT which makes them "unique" enough to "stand out in the crowd" and be the "winners" among us all; to fashion, create and establish the works of a Legume can take the same amount of passion and effort and inspiration as that of a ToxicAngel would; they BOTH do have a very unique statement of quality in a very different way and should actually be appreciated for that stimulation of unequaled value their talents seem to arouse among so many members enough to vote for them so vigorously.

Right--the great unwashed can't be trusted to make the simplest decisions. nope, you're reading what you want into that. What I think is unfortunate is that so few are actually paying attention to what's going on, so much so that all of the actually talented artists Legume went up against for AOM lost because most of the community just saw a flash in the pan and went in that direction rather than actually looking at and examining the art in the galleries that were presented before them. Anyway, my point has been made many times and I have actually agreed with you as far as the poll goes, right now you have just resorted to your own personal feelings on the subject in order to keep the argument going...nice job.. Melissa

"How do you know that it isn't? It could be about that as well as a few other things including the desire for someone who better represents the community or it could be about none of those things, we really do not know." I should have clarified. I meant that this discussion ought not to be about whose work is better; I think that debate is pointless and kind of insults us all. I have no doubt that the admins would prefer the site be represented by work which more closely represents the prevailing, MP-friendly girl/sword/postwork aesthetic. For me (not speaking for anyone else), as I said, the issue is fairness--and nomenclature, to some degree. "I would much rather have seen toxicAngel win by popular vote than hope that the PTB decides that he wins" So would I. So would he (see the TA's post in the thread below). I'd rather the admins had a better-developed sense of fair play, and were less concerned with protecting appearances at all costs.

"What I think is unfortunate is that so few are actually paying attention to what's going on, so much so that all of the actually talented artists Legume went up against for AOM lost because most of the community just saw a flash in the pan and went in that direction rather than actually looking at and examining the art in the galleries that were presented before them." Right--the great unwashed can't be trusted to make the simplest decisions.

"Personally I can't fault them for not wanting to waste community resources on a person who has dedicated himself to trying to destroy the community." "it's a shame that the vote had to be taken away from the community because so few within it actually recognize real talent and skill and only resond to those who draw the most attention to themselves..." Yeah... next thing you know they'll be lettin' those uppity niggers vote and win contests. Then where would we be?!

Yikes. Tell me you din't just post that.

nono it's still there- .... wonder if this will post before this thread gets locked or deleted ;P

okay so, real talent and skill really have nothing to do with it. there is no point in trying to develop my skills as an artist because in the end no one will actually care whether or not the work is any good..what I really need to do is just jump up and down and draw as much attention to myself as possible and then try to churn out 3 barely constructed peices a day and that will be enough for me to be considered an artist. Personally I'd rather take the chance that no one will notice, that my work will be special to me whether anyone else ever even comments on it. I'm not looking for money or attention ulitmately, I just want to do what means the most to me and if a few do like it, well that's fine too...I've never had the personality to be a celebrity...don't like alot of attention, but if somehow being a real artist means you must be a celebrity, I can do without either title...Lecturing me that feeling is important to art is even more insulting than saying I don't know what I'm talking about. And Mosca, if you must only continue to see what you want to see just for the sake of having something to argue about go right ahead, you are only showing your own lack of intuitiveness. I have said before that I agree that the poll shouldn't have been taken away and to imply that I want some sort of dictatorship is just wrong. I value democracy as much as you think you do but I am just pointing out that this is whole scenario is just a good example of how democracy can sometimes backfire, I'm not suggesting it is reason to replace it with anything else so don't even try to put words in my mouth. For one final time, I will say again that I agree with you about the polls but I will never agree from your perspective because in my mind your perspective is just as completely unfair and injust as you think mine is... Melissa

What's the big issue? Is same argument many make around here. Legume is not good enough artist to deserve AOY, and so he si now "nigger". Just like black peoples or jewish peoples. Except now we discriminate on him because of how he believes? What he says? Same argument you make, lynde... different historical context. ;)

"okay so, real talent and skill really have nothing to do with it. there is no point in trying to develop my skills as an artist because in the end no one will actually care whether or not the work is any good.." Perhaps you should not seek outside approval for your abilities, yes?

"And Mosca, if you must only continue to see what you want to see just for the sake of having something to argue about go right ahead, you are only showing your own lack of intuitiveness." Just responding to what you wrote, Lynde, which is essentially that the members aren't smart enough to pick the "real" art, because their feeble minds are distracted by a lot of jumping up and down. Sorry if I'm misreading you, but that's really what you seem to be saying. Maybe it's not my fault that I can't intuit your true meaning; I'm a lot of things, but I'm not psychic.

Maestraorion: it's not so much your argument as your use of the "n" word that's likely to offend. Could you rephrase those two posts, using language that's less loaded and potentially divisive?

what has this got to do with racism? I KNOW you had better not be implying that because there is no way anyone could even remotely dream that this has anything to do with that or that anything I said was a racist remark. Get that chip off your shoulder. I can't remember who said it but somehow now the phrase "I don't agree with a single thing you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" keeps coming back to mind...I'll bet i'm the last person you thought you'd hear that one from, huh? I really don't agree with your perspective at all but you have and should have a right to express it just as I should.. The PTB gave us a poll then took it away when they saw that we(yes we, as a whole community) might make a stupid decision. That is an unfortunate side effect of democracy, sometimes the people do make misguided decisions(any history or political sciences expert will tell you that) but that does not mean that the system as a whole doesn't work or is not fair. I don't agree that it should have been taken away but again, my point is that it is unfortunate that this happened. Melissa

Just responding to what you wrote, Lynde, which is essentially that the members aren't smart enough to pick the "real" art, because their feeble minds are distracted by a lot of jumping up and down. Sorry if I'm misreading you, but that's really what you seem to be saying. Maybe it's not my fault that I can't intuit your true meaning; I'm a lot of things, but I'm not psychic. You've almost got it, but not quite. I never made reference to anyone's intelligence, that part you added. I do think that Legume's work was for many, a distraction, whether that has anything to do with intelligence or not depends on the individual....Cheryle said before that she didn't even know it was a protest at first, wasn't that what this was supposed to be?? Melissa

lynde I disagree with you on one small point. The PTB saw we were going to make a decision that they didn't like, that doesn't immediately make it a stupid decision. In this case the system is being unfair as we'd pretty much made the decision to give the AOY to Legume or ToxicAngel & the PTB just don't like Legume & couldn't risk letting him be AOY as it would be a signal for everyone to be original/contraversial in their artwork, we can't have that can we?

Might make a stupid decision? in who's opinion? What may be stupid for one is the right answer for another- and frankly i didn't get this far in life by having someone "protect" me from making "so called stupid decisions." Why is it stupid? because it doesn't have that cookie cutter harlequin romance thing going? If it's about image then that's a crock- all one has to do is look at the banner ads and the frt page ads to know they really are not worried about image. I pulled my work along time ago ( for a few reasons) one of them being- i was asked why i was posting to a soft porn site. If they are really worried about image- then they have a lot of work to do- starting with their advertising.And Melissa- it's the way you are saying things that is causing an issue. You basically are insulting everyone who did not vote for TA. So what if my definition of talent is diff than yours? How do you know what was going through peoples minds as they were voting. You don't-you are just making assumptions.

eek ! boss ! snagged must pretend to be working ;P bbl ;)

c1rcle that may be true as well...I'll give you that on the point that perhaps the community might have made a decision they didn't like..:) Melissa

"Cheryle said before that she didn't even know it was a protest at first, wasn't that what this was supposed to be??" It started out as satire, really. Not quite the same thing. I don't think Legume or anyone else could have anticipated that we'd still be arguing about it now--what, seven months later? "I don't agree that it should have been taken away but again, my point is that it is unfortunate that this happened." Good. Then we agree.

Might make a stupid decision? in who's opinion? What may be stupid for one is the right answer for another- and frankly i didn't get this far in life by having someone "protect" me from making "so called stupid decisions." In my opinion and I'm sure others, yes, it would have been a stupid decision(not just based on talent and skill but a number of other reasons as well)...that is my opinion and I have a right to have one just as you do. I don't know what was going through other's minds but I do think voting him as AOY would be stupid, and have a right to feel that way even if it is an unpopular point of view.. Melissa

lynde, post #44: "You've almost got it, but not quite. I never made reference to anyone's intelligence, that part you added." lynde, post #50: "In my opinion and I'm sure others, yes, it would have been a stupid decision(not just based on talent and skill but a number of other reasons as well)...that is my opinion and I have a right to have one just as you do. I don't know what was going through other's minds but I do think voting him as AOY would be stupid, and have a right to feel that way even if it is an unpopular point of view.." Hmmmm.... But no matter. I still think the issue is not who should have won, but whether the admins are justified in pulling the plug just because they live in fear and loathing of Legume.

I never made a reference to anyone's intelligence and still haven't, you are once again trying to insinuate something for the sake of continuing an arguement(and after we had agreed, hmmmm). I said IN MY OPINION it would have been a stupid DECISION. It's a well known fact that even the smartest people sometimes make stupid decisions, it's part of being human. The issue is that it's unfortunate that the poll was pulled...period... Melissa

Democracy: The doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group.

Um, where does this site fit into a Democracy? And, where does it exclude supposedly "stupid" decisions by the majority?

And, where does it exclude supposedly "stupid" decisions by the majority? sigh it doesn't, no one ever said we should rework the concept of democracy. While I agree it is the best form of government, it isn't perfect, but nothing in this world is. A point I made several posts up was that sometimes it is possible for the people(or the numerical majority or however you want to say it, we should all know how democracy is intended to work without resorting to a debate on semantics at this point) to make misguided decsions and that any history or political expert will tell you that is completely true...does it mean the vote should have been taken away, no. Do me a favor, if you are going to quote me and critique what I say, please make sure you read everything I say so I don't end up repeating myself over and over again for everyone who happens along... Melissa

Well I agree with Cheryle on the fact that Renderosity should just drop all these contests, because they do nothing but hurt the community, no matter what the outcome, because they always end badly.

The admission you made above, Mosca, that was brought up is the reason why I have no sympathy for Legume or for this in general. It just goes to show that, at least in the past (which causes suspicion in the present) that any means were taken in order to bring Legume the fame that he had gotten, some of which was very unethical as well. Now you are calling the kettle black? Please. This whole current campaign is about playing the public to ignore the art and vote for him on principle. Most of what I saw in the forums when it came to voting for Legume was not that he had good art, but that it was a protest against the establishment. "I'm voting for Legume, cause I don't like those pinup people or he's against Rosity's policies." That's not what the AoY should represent IMO. If there was no campaigning, no history here, I'd probably be defending him to the bitter end, but that isn't the case here, so I'm not. There is unfairness on both sides, more than you seem to be willing to recognize. Neither of which is illegal in my opinion, just bad form.

And then people wonder why the AoY/AoM isn't taken seriously, as most contests on here aren't, which makes it easy to control...And we don't even know what else is going on behind the scenes, if anything that might also have contributed...

ShadowWind

"The PTB gave us a poll then took it away when they saw that we(yes we, as a whole community) might make a stupid decision. That is an unfortunate side effect of democracy, sometimes the people do make misguided decisions(any history or political sciences expert will tell you that) but that does not mean that the system as a whole doesn't work or is not fair." In a democracy, the majority makes the decision, not the PTB. Therefore, this is anything but a democracy and more like a dictatorship in which one (or a group of specific) individual(s) makes the decisions - not the majority. If you are claiming that the decision to remove the poll was by some form of democratic action, I would like to see evidence of it. I think you are confusing your terms; hence the necessity to offer a definition and to show you - in as polite a way as possible - that you were mistaken. And, yes, I have read the entire thread. And I do understand your POV, although I am confused by the words you have chosen to use to voice that opinion.

In the time that I posted that, man, responses just backed up, so forgive if it seems a bit lagged.

Renderosity is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship. To be a private web site, conducting business on the net, it has to be. The fact that the PTB give us any input at all, is simply kind of them and in adherance with good business practices. They are not protecting us from making a stupid decision, they are directing their ship in the way they feel it should go...simple as that...

And I do understand your POV, although I am confused by the words you have chosen to use to voice that opinion. I am confused by the words you have chosen as it seems you would like to be able to say that I have said something that I didn't say. How could you possibly think that I thought that the decision was democratic? I didn't like it when the AOM voting procedures were changed, but I knew why it happened and it upset me that my ability to choose in the future would be limited because the majority made a decision that i didn't support. And I really wish that the poll for AOY hadn't been taken away but I have a feeling it was done for simular reasons that the AOM was changed. I have stated time and time again that I did not support thefact that the poll was taken away and have NEVER even suggested that the decision to do so was democratic, that is what you are trying to say that I have said but I would never say it because it isn't true. Why don't we just cut to the real issue, you don't like my opinions because I don't support the artist that you like. That's the real bottom line. Melissa

Sorry, but this just looks like second verse, same as first.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=844709

Sorry. Forgot to link my meanings. ;)

Lynde: How could you possibly think that I thought that the decision was democratic? CS: If you are claiming that the decision to remove the poll was by some form of democratic action, I would like to see evidence of it. It seems, to me, that you are misunderstanding. IF denotes a potential, not that you "thought that the decision was democratic". You were, afterall, the first to bring "democracy" into the thread (ref post 38). I have no preference for any artist nor the contests/polls/etc on this site. Just trying to enlighten you that your stance is compromised by the way you state it.

Melissa, please sit down, you're embarrassing yourself with your narrowmindedness. Thank you. Jack

If you are claiming that the decision to remove the poll was by some form of democratic action, I would like to see evidence of it. Once again, I have made no such claim. please re-read an excerpt from post 38, if that is what you are referencing as proof that I suggested that you will see you were mistaken. I have said before that I agree that the poll shouldn't have been taken away and to imply that I want some sort of dictatorship is just wrong. I value democracy as much as you think you do but I am just pointing out that this is whole scenario is just a good example of how democracy can sometimes backfire, I'm not suggesting it is reason to replace it with anything else so don't even try to put words in my mouth. I can't believe I've resorted to quoting myself on this issue...sheesh! Melissa

"The admission you made above, Mosca, that was brought up is the reason why I have no sympathy for Legume or for this in general. It just goes to show that, at least in the past (which causes suspicion in the present) that any means were taken in order to bring Legume the fame that he had gotten, some of which was very unethical as well." Really not at all the same situation--the whole Pink Pony/Hot 20 thing was just a big goof. Legume got nothing out of it but attention, at least half of which was extremely, even irrationally negative. And don't forget--when the clone voting was discovered, the admins removed them, and Legume still dominated the Hot 20 for some time. Remember, too, that nobody made me fess up--I did it because I genuinely felt I'd gotten a bit carried away and it seemed right to come clean. AND, I think it's one thing, frankly, for members to goof on the already pretty goofy Hot 20, and entirely another thing for a commercial entity to set up and then rig a contest in which considerable prizes are offered. So fine, question my motivations all you want--the real issue in this case is R'osity's fear and loathing of Legume, and their willingness to break the rules of their own contest to make sure he doesn't win. He's being discriminated against, plain and simple--the Legume Rule has been invoked. If they can do it to him, they can do it to you, too.

lynde, As you have suggested to others many times, please re-read my posts and see where I specifically state that was your opinion/claim. You are reading into my posts what you want to see. Open your mind and read without any preconceived notions.

I read what you posted...The fact that you ask the question "IF" suggests that you think that is what I am suggesting but there is no proof anywhere to support that idea. that's all I'm saying...yes I brought it up, because the whole isssue is that the vote has been taken away...please don't try to put any words in my mouth...I'm sick of it..

"The fact that you ask the question 'IF' suggests that you think that is what I am suggesting but there is no proof anywhere to support that idea." No, the reason people ask questions is IF they want an answer, not suggesting nothing. In the end, you are no better than those you are accusing of not reading your posts or "reading into" posts; because you do the same thing. Is this any clearer: Where in Hades do you think Democracy even fits into R'osity, since you mentioned "That is an unfortunate side effect of democracy, sometimes the people do make misguided decisions(any history or political sciences expert will tell you that) but that does not mean that the system as a whole doesn't work or is not fair." regarding an issue completely related to R'osity, a pure and unadulterated Dictatorship, and not a democratic process?

::shrugs with a snicker:: I politely tried to warn her to sit down... heh... Someone please pass the popcorn. Jack

Actually your example isn't very clear at all but in case my quote was the source of your confusion, perhaps I should rephrase what I said to better explain what I mean. "Unfortunately sometimes it is possible in a democracy for the majority to make a misguided decision, that doesn't mean that democracy doesn't work or is not fair it just means it isn't perfect." I never called for a dictatorship and still can't understand how the subect even came up.. Melissa

no Jack, you don't get it...you're the one who should be embarassed..

It's a business, not a country. The point is, a well run business is responsive to its customers concerns. The point is, R'osity's rigging of its own contest is patently unfair and possibly illegal. The point is, love him or hate him, one of your fellow R'osity members has been discriminated against, and R'osity has made it clear that those artists who veer from the acceptable, merchant-approved formula aren't welcome and should expect to be treated as undesireables by the PTB.

lynde, Nevermind. It seems, in this case at least, it is useless to point out the obvious to the oblivious.

yeah, my point exactly...I'm done..

::smiles and stands up, taps his baseball bat on his heels and steps up to the plate:: Okay doll, you asked for it... Your whole arguement is tied together by your disapproval of Legume, saying that he has in your words: "dedicated himself to trying to destroy the community" and that his artwork isn't up to par with your expectations... Just for the record Missy, Legume is responisble for this Community here on your precious little Renderosity. If not for his hard work and dedication to this Community, to Steve Cooper and Curious Labs, you wouldn't have a Renderosity to come too... so please get your nose out of the air and the stick out of your ass!! For the record, I'd be bitching about this even if Legume wasn't a part of this or had been one of the AOY nominees. Hell, I'd defend it even if your stock artwork had been up for this award. This site is meant to revolve around the Community and last I friggen looked Legume was a member of this Community, just like you. The removal of this contest from the people that make up this site, voids any kind of feeling of Community and only futher installs a sense of Big Business. This Community has the right to vote whomever they feel is worthy of AOM or AOY, be it Legume, Toxicangel or your crap... And as a Community we have a right to know why our vote doesn't count or isn't important. Your whole assertation of this situation is that this AOY contest was indeed voided because of Legume, so if you are arguing on defense of Renderosity's PTB, you are doing a real fine job of painting them out to be just as narrow minded as you and as discriminating. Good work!! Take a bow, sit down now and shut up! ::nods to everyone and goes back to sit down till its his turn up at bat again:: Jack

Again, what rules? What contest? There was a poll.. Did anything say that Rosity had to abide by this poll? Did it say, "Winner of this poll would win these fabulous prizes?" Did it say, "This poll would end on the 12/22?" What did it say? The more I read of these threads, the more this sounds like an opinion poll, more than an election or contest...at least from a legal point of view...

Jack, In all fairness, lynde has a right - just as anyone else does - to take sides or formulate opinions based off the "facts". My major bone of contention is the supposition that R'osity (and/or its decision to remove the poll) was in any way democratic or espouses any ideals of democracy. I was attempting to show lynde that 1) democracy has no foothold here and, 2) she is just as apt to misread what is said as anyone else. In the dialog, IMHO, lynde proved that the accusations made by her and others stick equally to both sides. Therefore, it effectively nullifies some of the tangential "discussions" that have taken place.

No I'm sorry, you are completely mistaken. You are right on one thing, I don't like Legume or his artwork....period.. I have said all along that I never supported the decision to remove the voting. I've said it at least half a dozen times, do I really need to point all of the indiviual posts out to you or are you so narrowminded that you have only read the ones that you thought would offend you the most? For the record, I'd be bitching about this even if Legume wasn't a part of this or had been one of the AOY nominees. Hell, I'd defend it even if your stock artwork had been up for this award. So would I, please pay attention. Be as offensive as you want but it doesnt' change the fact that I don't agree with the fact that the vote was taken away, no matter how much you might want that to be the case. My actual arguement is that I don't agree with it, but I understand why it was done...understanding and agreeing are two different things.. Melissa

Cyber, points taken...I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't support a dictatorship...that's all...either way I have no argument with you anymore...:0) Melissa

::Shouts from his chair, so as he doesn't have to get up:: Your statement of "understanding why it was done" and then choosing that focus to be on Legume rather any other possible situation leads people to believe that you are either "talking out of your ass" or are "clued in". Your "understanding" of it leads people to believe that you support that decission. And if you do support their reason for closing it down, if indeed it may be about Legume, then you are just as wrong as they are. Jack

lynde, There was never an argument to begin with, was there? Just differing POVs and ways of seeing/reading things. Written communication is one of the hardest mediums to get your point across. Sometimes it takes a lot of time and misunderstandings before the true intent is meted out. --- My take on the "AoY poll/contest" is that it was started publicly and should have ended publicly - mistake or not. Removing the poll/contest has obviously caused more harm than good. If the mods/admins vote on which artists are included in the AOY, and Legume was one, then they should be willing to accept the possibility that Legume would have a 1/12 chance of winning; regardless of any publicity/campaigning, etc. The fact that it was publicly available and now it is not, due to a policy change that was never made public, TTBOMK, reeks the same malodorous scent as many decisions this past year. Hopefully, the new year will bring more "enlightenment" to everyone.

Easy, Jack. You and Lynde agree on everything but the curtains.

No, you are once again completely wrong. It is possible to understand someone's reasons for taking a certain action but at the same time disagree with the action they have taken. Yes, I did spend a lot of energy discussing why I don't think Legume deserves AOY but that is still a seperate issue from the fact that I agree that the poll should not have been taken down. Please quit attempting to put words in my mouth, your not doing a very good job of it. Melissa

Here is what I want to see. Instead of just allowing "for" vote, allow "against" vote. You are still allow only one vote, "for" or "against". A lot of time is that there may be a few artists that I think equally talented and worth the award. At time, people may not be able to decide who to vote for, in the end may not vote for neither one, and someone who they thought definatly should not win end up winning. IMO, people should also be allowed to voice their disapproval by putting in minus-votes, or putting in positive-votes for one they think definitely deserving the award. Should start a trial with the hot 20.

...this should be interesting.

"You are still allow only one vote, "for" or "against". A lot of time is that there may be a few artists that I think equally talented and worth the award. At time, people may not be able to decide who to vote for, in the end may not vote for neither one, and someone who they thought definatly should not win end up winning." Too bad they didn't have this option in the last presidential election....

Cyber, I agree with you about how it was handled..:) and you're right, it's hard to communicate this way, I guess I got too caught up in this to understand what you were trying to say earlier...anyway...sorry for the miscommunication..:) Melissa

::looks at Melissa and just shakes his head, leans and whispers to a few people near him:: I like the suggestion that Shadowind came up with, don't bother to have an AOM or AOY, if we (the Community) aren't the ones that get to pick, then why have the damn thing anyhow? Last I remembered, contests were a means in which to generate activity... of course in this case, they certainly got allot of activity from starting it and then ending it... Jack

Going OT a little bit. Agree with Mosca :) I think a lot of people not going to the poll was because in many cases, they were given some OK choices, rarely would one choice would truely stand out to completely align with their POV. However, I find it much easier to notice things that I don't like. Human nature? Or just my personal flaw?

Jack, think of it this way, if a friend of yours found out his wife was cheating on him would you think he had a right to be upset? If you agreed, would you then aree with your friend if he decides to kills his wife and her lover and all of their relatives? Okay, this is an extreme analogy(which doesn't relate to the situation perfectly, I should add) but the point I'm making is that you can understand someone's reasons for doing something but not agree with the action they took.. Melissa

How's this: the neighbor's wife is cheating. You don't like the neighbor, and you may, in fact, like the person she's cheating with a great deal. Yet you still fell strongly that cheating is wrong. It's like something out of Dear Abby.

$5.00US says this thread gets [LOCKED] without a reasonable, rational resolution. :0)

LOL Mosca...

For all the "you people would be making a stupid decision if the poll was allowed to continue", Lynde seems to forget that that's how democracy is sometimes. I don't especially think you got yourself a prize in the White House, but you voted him in and now you're stuck with him, whether you like it or not. Legume was made AOM fair and square. Rsotiy posted the poll. Legume was doing pretty well in the votes, fair and square. And now the poll's gone. That's it. Pure and simple. You do the math and tell me how that jives with, as seen on the bottom of every page of Leg's gallery: "We are proud to host the works of Legume here at Renderosity.com". If the PTB had any sense at all, they'd put the poll back up and let the proverbial chips fall where they may. If Toxic gets it, great. If Legume gets it, great. But at least whoever gets it represents what the community wants, stupid or not.

you people would be making a stupid decision if the poll was allowed to continue Okay, who made that comment? I know I didn't...I said that I thought if Legume were elected AOY that I thought it would be a stupid decision, I never said the poll should be removed out of fear that the community would make that decision...I know exactly how a democracy works and I have spent the past 8 billion posts explaining just that....please read all the posts before making an assumtion of what you think I think. Don't just read the parts of the post that you think will offend you, read it all before attempting to reject my point of view. Melissa

I know I didn't...I said that I thought if Legume were elected AOY that I thought it would be a stupid decision Is there a difference?

To all members, I have been out of town since friday evening, so that is why I am responding late. The AOY was all my fault. Our process for the AOY is for admins and mods to vote on the AOMs of the year. This is how we did it last year and was suppose to do it this year. I told one of our new admin incorrectly and did not realize it until friday - 2 days after the voting had started. This is no other admins fault except for mine. I will make no excuses other than to give an apology.

to atthisstange: yes there is, please refer to post 52..you're not the first to pursue this innane arguement. I am not gonna repeat myself just for someone who refuses to pay attention.

Tammy, I may be mistaken but I think your wrong about last year. Im pretty sure we as members voted last year for AOY. Now if Im right when was the policy changed and why? Don't you think we are intelligent enough to vote for AOM/AOY ? My problem with all of this is I TOOK the time to vote. Now my vote is unworthy? I hope you know that whoever you pick as AOY, it will now be tainted. And that's too bad because every artist that won AOM is deserving of the accolade of AOY. It was tough to pick.

Well, pook, here's what you wrote: It's a well known fact that even the smartest people sometimes make stupid decisions... which states pretty baldly (no matter how "innane" you think it might seem) something right in line with my paraphrase of "you people would be making a stupid decision", which you took issue to. Face it, Melissa: you put your foot in it and now you can't get it out. You don't trust the community to make what you happen to believe would be the "right" decision, no matter what who or that might be. And that, missy, is exactly what you're saying, no matter how much you deny it. Now please try again if you want, but again there's nothing different between what you wrote in 52 and what I repeated back later on. And Tammy? What you were supposed to do now is immaterial. Whoever set it in motion will get his ass in a sling, but now you have no real choice, if you want this thing to have any credibility whatsoever, but to let the open vote continue.

Well said Sean! Jack

No you are still trying to put words in my mouth...period....I have stated numerous times that I didn't support the poll being removed which is what you tried to say in your paraphrase: "you people would be making a stupid decision if the poll was allowed to continue" I only pointed out that I never said any such thing but from the way you worded it, you attributed that logic to me which is wrong. Though you would very much like to be able to say that I'm calling the rest of the community stupid and unable to make decision, that isn't the case. I have made it clear numerous times that what I really believed was that choosing Legume as an AOM was a stupid move and that I also think selecting him as AOY would be equally stupid based on my feelings on the subject, there has still been not reference to anyone's intelligence or ability to make further decisions. You read into my posts what you want to read because you know I don't like the same artist you do.

there has still been not reference to anyone's intelligence or ability to make further decisions In my business, we call that time stepping. I don't really care if you like Legume or not. That's not the point. What you wrote is "sometimes the smartest people make stupid decisions". Your words, ma'am. And now you reiterate it by saying that in your opinion making Leggie AOY would be stupid. If that's not making a judgment call on people's ability to make a decision, I don't know what is. And it's not reading a thing into your posts. It's your own words. So if you mean something else, you'd better get started thinking of a new approach, because this one just ain't running anywhere.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1016109

*

Twist it whatever way you want. The bottom line is that I never said anyone was stupid or said that the vote should be taken away from them because of their past decisions, that's the bottom line no matter how badly you wish it wasn't.

Perhaps you people can get over yourselves long enough to REALIZE what has just happened here? I may be fairly new to this community but I believe one of the "big" people here just told us all that there was indeed an error and even apologized for it, thus taking on full responsibility for it as well. This is not an easy undertaking for anyone, especially upon a site that seems to throw flames and ask questions later; yes, in what short time I have been here I have noticed this habitual far too often. I for one enjoy the ambiance of this ite and would hate to see it destroyed because of lack of understanding and compassion for the basic principals of imperfection. Please have some respect and courtesy. Jack in another thread above has the right idea with his note of "thanks" to this Tammy and I will do the same..."thanks Tammy." Surely there must be countless reasons to really enjoy the many benefits of this site, far more than continue to badger about things such as this that has in fact been acknowledged and apologized for. No one can be expected to be perfect, especially folks that run online forums full of diverse artists and even moreso, so many diverse peronalities. Get over it.

I agree Billy, in fact I did respond on this same subject in another thread, I am glad to know now that it was just a mistake. However, if someone chooses to attack me I will defend myself and that's the only reason this thread continues. I know what happened now but as long as another chooses to put words in my mouth I will make sure the truth about my own intentions are known. Oh, and thanks Tammy..:) Thanks, Melissa

Twist it whatever way you want Hard to twist what's there in white on black, ma'am. And Tammy? Apology noted, but again, you should leave the poll open at this point.

If you are refering to what I said and only what I said then it isn't there "in black and white" as you say. BOTTOM LINE: _________________________________________________________ I don't think any vote should ever be taken away from anyone based on previous decisions or for any other reason. While in my opinion I think that some people made a STUPID DECISION about the AOM vote for Legume that does not mean that I think they, personally, are stupid. I'm sure there are quite a few intelligent people who voted for him I just do not agree with it and never will(if you really want to know why I don't like his work, then IM me, because I am done discussing this here for I have better things to do with my time). And above all, The admins have now admitted that the vote was never intended to go to the community and that they put up the poll by mistake which nullifies the need for this entire argument alltogether. _________________________________________________________ Now that I have made my position very clear NUMEROUS TIMES I will refrain from responding to any further attempts by anyone else to pretend that I meant something other than what I said. I see no need to defend myself any further since in all truth, I know in my mind what I stand for and that's all that matters to me. Those who are capable of being fair will understand what I have said and those who have issues will continue to look for that which isn't there.

I think you two really do like one another. It kind of shows, even through all the negativity.

"And above all, The admins have now admitted that the vote was never intended to go to the community and that they put up the poll by mistake which nullifies the need for this entire argument alltogether." Except for the disscussion of why the vote was taken away from the membership in the first place, why a mistake was made posting a poll and it took 3 days to figure out that it was on the FRONT PAGE! And what the hell to do about it now? just about any solution is going to look bad.

I wonder why it is that Renderosity wants to play at being a big business, but when something like this happens, they just apologize and think that's all they need to do. If they want to run a business, they should expect to be treated like a business. When a business runs a contest, there are LAWS that must be adhered to. I'd be willing to bet that Renderosity isn't even vaguely familiar with those laws, and should, for thier own future protection, talk to a lawyer who knows something about those laws.

"I wonder why it is that Renderosity wants to play at being a big business, but when something like this happens, they just apologize and think that's all they need to do." Forgive me Sir Legume, for I understand you are the great artist behind all those incredible pieces of humor and contraversy in the gallery here. I do bow to your talents and wit, I enjoy your work immensly. As for the above statement, I have to suggest that if I were to name here just how many "businesses" I have known to DO exactly this, I am afraid my post just would not be long enough nor even shallow enough. With all due respect to heightened feelings around here, and especially to you, Sir Legume, who was so "unfortunatly" in the heat of all this, I do hope people will learn to forgive and comprehend that a mistake was made and a difficult apology of responsibility was followed; not at all something that many cold, hard "businesses" would actually DO. Happy Holidays

Attached Link: Proposed Changes to AOY voting

Perhaps discussing how the voting can be changed to make it more equitable and palatable in the future would prove somewhat beneficial? There seems to be many sides still discussing the issue, yet very few participating in offering up a potential solution. If we, as members, cannot decide how this year's AOY will be chosen, we can at least make a constructive change to the system to ensure this does not happen again. R'osity's ability to work with the members on a solution, after requesting input, will clearly show their true intentions.

There seems to be many sides still discussing the issue, yet very few participating in offering up a potential solution Here's one: don't have contests. Period. End of story.

atthisstage, You could have followed the link and seen that was already proposed. :0)

I know it was. It seems to bear repeating.