Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com/article/productlist/190/

::insert teletype sound effects here:: While perusing the CL website to see if a better patch has been released for P5 since SR-2.1, what to my surprise do I see?? A new program released from CL!! This new program is called Pro-V (heh, like the word Pro is synonamous with CL :oP) which is supposed to be the "ultimate tool for Web Authoring". Excuse the skeptisim, after all, I've only been sitting on this P5 paperweight for over four months hoping it'd get fixed, only to find out that CL is off and doing other things. Sure, sure, probably a different design team working on that product, but one would have to wonder where the money came from to pay for the production of it... ...one would have to think from the sales of Poser 5, which many of us still sit waiting to be fixed. Instead of using that money to get their Poser Staff back up to par to fix P5's problems, they turn around an put it into another application. And wonder of wonder, what do you know, this new software package ALSO has a portal for Content Paradise in it. I have one suggestion and one question... My suggestion: Wait before buying this new piece of software, I sure wouldn't want lightning to strike my wallet a second time in a year from a company who has yet to fix the problems with their Cornerstone Application: "Poser". And my Question... When the hell are they going to get around to making Poser 5 a stable application which can actually be used for more than a paperweight? Sincerely Torqued off, Jack D. Kammerer

Jack,
what do you expect ?
Has CL ever solved the bugs on the ProPack ?
It seems to me that they are now satisfied with their work, after they released SR2.1, or has anyone heard something from CL after the last release ?
I talked to my reseller (where i bought Poser5) before christmas about returning this piece of crap and getting my money back, and i wonder, he said that this would be no problem. So i will wait till the end of january if there will be any good solutions from CL and then i will return Poser 5 and, i swear, NEVER buy any kind of software from this company (and i spend a lot of money in Poser4, the ProPack and their latest achievement called Poser 5).
Just my 2 cents.

Ron

Jack, I'm tired of reading your agenda filled hate posts bashing CL. It was interesting for a little while, but not anymore. CL has listened to users of Poser5, changed the EULA, posted numerious fixes, and enabled features that wern't on the box. Are there still issues with Poser5, yes, but its far from a paperwieght. Even the posts in the Beta Forum have lessened. I for one will make sure that my money does not go toward any Jack D. Kammerer associated products. What would make you happy? Kupa has addressed many of your concerns in other posts, answered you directly, yet you continue. What DO you want? Blah, probably falling on deaf ears.

I don't really work with Shockwave or Viewpoint, although I suppose it'll be of interest to others. $1600+ is a bit out of my price range, anyway.

Clearly there is a much larger axe being ground here than dissapointment with P5. I strongly suspect there is an old grudge or some business agenda at work. Poser5 has issues, but the fixes ARE coming at a good clip, Poser5 is a extremely useful tool for the vast majority of users and CL has made many changes in response to user requests. That won't change anything of course, because the flaws in Poser5 aren't really the reasons for the attacks I think... just the excuse.

Machine Claw asked: "What DO you want?" Answer: Simple, my Poser 5 to work, to render without crashing (on a 2ghrz p4 w/1.8 gig of RAM) and I still can not get one freaking render from Poser 5. To get the rest of the content that was supposed to come with the program. To get the same use out of Poser 5 that I am getting out of Poser 4/Pro Pack. Great, they gave me extra stuff that didn't orginally come with Poser 5 (volume lighting effects) but none of that crap is doing me any good when I can't render a damn thing. My only "agenda" when it comes to Curious Labs and Poser 5, is to get the value out of that program that it is supposed to deliver (not crash or give me ballooned objects). Yes, they changed the EULA (they had too or support for that product, which has yet to work, wouldn't come out) and yes, some fixes and additions... but like someone already said, is this going to be all there is, is Poser 5 going to be "fixed" like Poser 4 was, or Pro Pack? Riddled with bugs that we'll have to tolerate till the next release of Poser???? My "agenda" is to get this darn thing fixed so I can use it. If your satisfied with bugs in Poser 5, good on you, I am happy for you. But if people don't speak up and everyone sinks into appathy, Poser 6 (if there is to be one) is going to be just as bug ridden, because: "What the hell, they'll bitch for a little while and then that'll be the end of it". So no, it isn't falling on deaf ears, but neither am I going to be mute about owning a program that I can't use or be content with it. Jack

MachineClaw,
the posts in the betaforum has lessened because no one of the CL-Stuff is there to answer the open questions and issues. They are on holiday, spending our money ;-) .
The Dynamic Clothingfeature and the Hairroom are the major reasons why i bought Poser 5. Is one of this 2 features in an acceptable condition as CL promised ? No. The bugs in clothroom are present since the very first release of Poser 5, also the hairroom.

Ron

$1,700 seems expensive. For that kind of coin, you could buy the whole "shebang" from Macromedia (5 or 6 products) for a really professional Flash site. Not sure what "3D" means, though. Also, did I miss any examples of some sites to view? Surely for that money one could see some "working" examples.

Jack: I'd offer to swap you my 850MHz Pentium 3 system w/128MB of RAM (on which Poser 5 is working sufficiently for me to play with) for your 2GHz P4 w/1.8GB of RAM (on which it isn't), but I'll be upgrading my hardware in a few days anyway.

Jack, exactly how many forums are you going to bitch and complain with the same exact post? Besides, your system is probably a POS anyhow. Me, I'm running an AMD Athlon XP 1600 with 512MB DDR and the only proble I ever had was a few of those caught c exceptions or whatever they were called. I've noticed that most of the people who say they crash and what have you are those who get their computers via some mass production, take what you get, destined to die within a years time PC.

Oh. Yay.
Another bash CL thread. The snickering hyenas should be along pretty soon.
Bookmark

"The snickering hyenas should be along pretty soon." Might as well come so they can party with the brain dead sheep. Rah rah olay!

I'm going to mark this'n so I can see how long it takes for it to get moved to OT forum. ;] Ya'll have fun. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Jack does have a valid point. Poser5 still has issues for some people, it still doesn't work 100% as CL intended it to. That doesn't mean I'm going to bash them tho. They've done a great job getting it to work for most of us, but it would be nice to know they're working on fixing the remaining bugs.

CL should not fix bugs in P 5 - they just should come over with a definite statement if there will be a Mac version or not. and if when....the situation is .....

I'd like to know a little more about the program. Viewpoint used to want a ton of money for one of their licences and the export from Poser never was that perfect. Good, but not perfect. As an aside PhilC's characters work very well, in particular his pony girl character BUT he always said that his characters weren't to be used in Viewpoint because the mesh could be extracted. Potentially, this could be a very relevant program for me but, can I trust it to deliver. I suppose I'll wait and see when the 30 day trial comes out on Computer Arts or Digit. Could be useful....

Hey, Jack... while you are grinding your axe again, can you sharpen my knives? I noticed while chopping walnuts for persimmon cookies that the large one was getting dull. Of course, my blades are used productively. Hmm... considering the state of your axe, I don't think I'd trust you to make any point. Carolly

30 Day trial is available at the CL site, 48 MB.

i stop putting my money and faith in CL. they have screwed some of the people, ( yet not all of them). and still they ( the people) come back for more, i often wonder how many times does one have to get slapped in the face before he notices thats something is wrong. its a shame that CL can't be like Adobe or corel, releasing a product that really works.as for CL bashing, well they bashed the fine users who bought there product by releasing something that causes more headaces than enjoyment. so if they can't take the heat, they best leave the kitchen.

This is why I don't spend much time here.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I'm so glad to see that some folks are finally standing up to Jack and his rants. Jack won't be satisfied till he "kills the goose that laid the golden egg." Whatta guy.

well first you need the golden egg.

Poser 5 is still very buggy. Memory management is horrible. I have issues I have documented in the beta forum throughout Christmas that I expect them to look at and address in upcoming service releases. The hair collision is almost useless and it has been like this since day one, was documented as a bug since day one by Nerd3D too and I haven't seen it being addressed in any service release yet. The general collision detection doesn't works as it should either. A user (Ockam I think is his name) is working on collision detection via Phyton that seems to work a lot better than what Curious Labs have managed to put in the package . I am keeping my faith in them but I will be very disapointed if they stop trying to fix something that should have worked long ago. There has to be an explanation to that other software that they are selling because I agree their top priority should be delivering a stable Poser 5.

Then buy them, or develop your own product, or simply return it. That is the power that you have, and the only one that any business today will listen to. Standing there whining -- yes, whining -- no longer does any good, only bad. Sqeaky wheels only get the grease when a few are squeaky. Otherwise the whole thing gets thrown away. Thoughtfulness requires going beyond the obvious.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

return it?? thats a good one. ppl have tried, and from my understanding from others CL doesn't like to give refunds. its a shame that CL can't fix there own bugs, maybe they should hire some of the fine folks here, they seem to be the ones spotting the bugs and fixing them, not CL.

EULA or not, the laws of most of the world still essentially state that if something does not work as advertised, then it can be returned. Given a dislike for giving money back, perhaps an attorney would be called for, so I will retract the "simply". Otherwise, the rest stands. Thank you for the information.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

i guess CL don't know about them laws yet.

No, I think they do. Willing compliance with them is another matter entirely. ;-)

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Thanks Prime but 48 mg isn't a download, it's a divorce...

ouch,,, saxon.. ROFLOL

What about this: Why doesn't CL completely finish a product before starting another one? Let's see Poser 5 working 100% perfect, not just "they're working on it" or "SR 2 fixes most things". What about P5 for the Mac (or the long list of things to fix in the Windows version)? Have they given it up in favor of this Pro-V program (which, by the way, is 4 times more expensive than Poser)? Does this means that CL is getting out of the 3-D business and into the web authoring business? And will Pro-V be a repeat of history? Can people expect to shell out $1600 (or whatever) for a program that crashes all the time and won't really work until SR2 is released? We've seen the "quality" of their new products, can we expect more of the same? And since CL is working on other products now, does anyone know how Avatar Lab 2.0 is coming along?

Considering the unfortunate flak this Jack person is getting for posting this thread and an opinion, perhaps there should be a poll? A vote by the members about this Poser 5? I don't have any poser 5. I do like the pictures in the gallery no matter which poser anyone uses. Unless someone tells me, I can't tell the difference which poser is which. Is this a bad thing? It's probably because I don't know much about poser, other than the pretty gallery artwork created with it. I can really tell the wonderful artists apart from each other though, there seems to be some very cool artwork done with all five posers in the poser gallery. It works for me. Happy New Year

Curious Labs reminds me of Excalibur BBS. "I used to run a BBS many years ago". They sell working Beta's of software hoping the "testers" will able them to pull up on this product. I lost many users when I switched ovet to Excalibur BBS from my triBBS system. I guess from all the stuff I am reading here it is maybe a good idea to wait until the Curious Labs Poser 5.0B is finished before I buy it? I am pretty happy with my Metacreations Poser 4.0 without all the other problems I read about all the time.

I want Poser 5 to be working a lot better and not developing new software elsewhere.

I for one, congratulate Jack on maintaining the flame. One of my main gripes with plenty of software developers is their newly acquired "habit" of releasing buggy software and not TOTALLY fixing it. They make us buy the new version without making the previous one useable in all aspects.... and that surely doesn't guarantee the new version will be any better. why would anyone buy something that does not and will not work as advertised? That's just plain ridiculous and bordering on idiotic on the part of the purchaser. We should be able to buy sofyware, or any product, and expect it to work fully as advertised....if I want to use this particular version and not buy the new one, I should be able to do so with a fully working product....period... If all you lemmmings allow this to continue happening, which has now become pretty much status quo in the software industry, you'll be fighting this same battle over and over. But from what I've seen and read, most of you have already caved in and just EXPECT software to arrive full of bugs. You EXPECT it!!! And that is exactly what you'll get. You expect things to not be fully working, features missing.....oh, the company will fix them....but do they???? Not just to bash CL, as this pertains to many software developers, but since we're on the Poser list....why didn't CL fix the problems in Poser 4 that folks have been bitching and whining about for 2 years???? nuff said.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Lemmings LOL that is a good one. i love that pharse.

Locked Locked Locked Dammit! Why won't my locked button work anymore!?

Well, Good for you Jack!!! I had poser5 on the first couple of weeks. But when it crashed my brand new computer I took it off. I was and am disappointed that it's so much harder to use than Poser4. I just want to make pictures, the easyest way possible. and 5 is not that. I'm waiting for a true fix for Poser 5.

Love is Grandchildren.

It's understandable that people are still feeling disappointed over the P5 issue. What we got is not what was promised or expected. True, much has been fixed, but that doesn't take away the bad taste. Personally, I'm waiting to see how Daz Studio shapes up.

I just checked the pricing for CL's new product- Pro-V. And, yes, it is outrageous! Some comparisons:

• Microsoft FrontPage 2002: (okay, not the greatest web-authoring tool) $169.00 (by itself; usually comes bundled with Office)
• Macromedia Dreamweaver MX: (from the people who invented Flash) $399.00
• Adobe GoLive! 6.0: (from the leader in computer-graphic desktop applications) $399.00
• Lightwave 7.5 (full): (used in Star Trek: Voyager, Babylon 5, pre-viz for Star Wars: Episode II, etc., etc., etc.) $1,595.00 (note: not a web-authoring tool, but a product in the price range as Pro-V)
• Pro-V 1.0: (from the same people who made Avatar Labs and Poser 5) $1,699.00 *Note: all pricing information found on each company's website ("order now" page). And it probably goes without saying that Dreamweaver, GoLive, and Lightwave have had Mac versions available for some time (and for the same price). Pro-V does not even mention a Mac version. So, just how "ultimate" is Pro-V, version 1.0? Is it $1,300 more "ultimate" than GoLive (which is on version 6.0) or Dreamweaver (which has native support for Flash and ColdFusion)?

Well.. At least so far, Unlike the people who make "World Builder", CL doesn't think everyone should pay them another $150 for their newest point release. Try spending $1000 on a piece of cra.. Oops! I mean "software" that after more than a year, still doesn't have a manual, and still has no problem crashing every 10 minutes on you. They also had no problem with expecting money for another "product" they released, while their "flagship" program was still buggy to the point of being worthless to a lot of people. It's true that this seems to have become the "norm" for way too many software companies. Are they really so perplexed over how many people have no problem with downloading 'Warez' versions of their overpriced, if not worthless, "Barely Beta" software??

Didnt Metacreations( Meta Who???) abandon the 3d arena to cash in on the web boom?? how did that "rotating product in the browser window" thingy work out?? With all the Cg in movies and commercial advertising 3D is a growth industry. while web authoring is a financial wastland except for Database driven big commerce sites. Sites that are already being maintained by Coldfusion and ultrdev from macromedia. Oh well Good luck

My website

YouTube Channel

Buggy, not fully working.......has anyone heard of Mictosoft.

Ay, dios mio, I have a bad feeling about this. Metacreations got into web-bells-and-whistles technology just before dumping all its 3D products, including a buggy version of Poser 4. Now is Curious going into bells-and-whistles web-technology before dumping its 3D products, meaning an unfinished version of Poser 5?

Where do these guys get the advice that the Internet is a cash cow to be pumped by everybody with a web-authoring scheme?

Mictowho?

Cant say I am having now or over the last month a single problem with Poser 5, I am pretty happy with it.

I hate to chime in on these types of posts but I have to agree...you should get what you were promised. Don't get me wrong I really like Poser (4 +Pro more than 5 at this point), but I bought the upgrade to do hair & collision detection, automatic secondary animation & for the better renderer...and they are really not working as advertised. I will also tell you (from my legal background) that regardsless of the EULA or whatever, if you are unsatisfied because it doesn't deliver the features advertised you do have the right to your money back (30 days or not). CL can say whatever they want...I know this because I also own and sell my own software. BUT.....in saying that, I do think it will come around...or at least hope so. Poser is an amazing tool and has real potential if it could be made more usable, especially by the pros, Poser could take the market. I'll be keeping P5 for now, I sure hope it "all" works soon. Just my thoughts, Chris

I don't think anybody should be bashing Jack over this. I think he's showing remarkable restraint. I don't have poser 5 and won't get it( can't export the hair or cloth ) the only reason I would have even considered it. That said... You have to kidding me folks. If I had bought this and it didn't work after this long( and I couldn't get my money back) you would need a striaghjacket to restrain me. I for one refuse to be treated like a beta test monkey. If I want to beta test something I'll sign up for it. A program as popular as poser could have had an endless supply of people willing to test this for free. Wouldn't have cost them a dime( well a few free copies BFD ). They would have had a wider hardware base to test on. Bad move all around on CL's part and I fear they will pay for it My 1 cent hey I'm overdrawn this month

Some questions: What happens if CL dumps Poser like Metacrap did? There isn't a competitive package in terms of price and capabiliites, is there? How big a market does Poser make for CL vs the total community? How big is the Poser market en total? While Poser5 requires the patience of Job, what incentive does CL have to fix it to the same ease of use that was availble in Poser4?

Gordon

MICROSOFT - sorry can't spell, too much buggy software.

I expected to be flamed for saying what I have in regard to my concerns with Poser 5. Nothing new or unexpected, considering I am going against the grain here displaying my discouragement with Poser 5 in a Community that has been rabidly defending the Poser application since the Poser One List was created. Hell, I've been one of those people. And in my five years of being a vocal member of this Community has fought to defend Poser, the value it brought to artists and the people who created it. However, I am no longer willing to strive on in blind devotion, considering that I make my living around 3D Applications. If wanting satisfaction for a product that I worked for (in which others in this Community have paid for), to have the program work without crashing and be able to do all of the things that both the box and company "says" it can do is considered as having an axe to grind, then I guess I do. Yes, I have a POS computer, bought off of a store shelf. However, Maya 3, Lightwave 7.5, Carrarra 2, Bryce 5 and other applications run just fine on this POS HP of mine. No crashing, no slow drag times... even Poser 4/Pro Pack runs just fine on this machine. I am sick of hearing people say that because I didn't "build" my own work station, I should just expect Poser 5 to have problems. 90% of people here own POS systems and if Poser 5 was meant to run on something other than a POS system, then they should've stated that and stayed a "cult" program. So that "excuse" doesn't fly with me. Yes, I am frustrated and you better believe I am going to be vocal about being frustrated. I LOVE Poser, always have, wouldn't be here if I didn't and it is FRUSTRATING to have Poser 5 sitting here, in it's box and see what others can achieve with Poser 5 (those that manage to get it to work) and not be able to use it myself!! And maybe, just maybe, if people just didn't sit there quietly "waiting" for CL to get around to fixing it and coming out with a MAC version, CL would put a little more effort into getting this application to work the way that it was intended too so we can all go back to making our art! Go ahead and flame me for being vocal about my disappointment, rabidly defend your bug ridden software that doesn't do the most that it can or should, be happy trying to find ways around software bugs. But let me tell you this, I am fighting to make this application work. Not just for my POS computer system, but for CL to get their application to work in order so that Poser can be around for a few more Versions. So flame away. Jack

"I am fighting to make this application work"

I'm with Jack 100 per cent. It's time that CL delivered what was promised!

Once again my long eloquent post gets trashed due to time out(must type out of rosity box arrgghh) I don't feel like flaming today, perhaps we can get back to constructive posts? I took a week or 2 off to calm down and so maybe I can try to help, I won't claim brilliant but P5 works for, why won't it work for others? For the user who says P5 is too hard to use(as in complicated) my advice would be to crawl in a box and seal it shut unless you plan to take time to learn something new. since I seem to be one of the lucky few who have a working as advertised P5 copy(note I don't do animation and have not any CL advert that claims update animation, if you have seen one please show me. Heresay doesn't count) let me ask you a few questions( I have a dell 1.4gig p4, nvidia card, 512mb ram btw) So we know the system...but what is the problem(lets be more eloquent than "It don work, ma!")? Are you running anything else at the same time? what happens when it craps out? Error, does it just quit, does it hang? What are you trying to render, have you installed any of patches?(If not I will say I don't believe you are trying to help your self) What have you tried in the program? I tried finding your OS info and failed, what are you trying to run it on? (Listing B5 doesn't count it since it should only be 4.4 really):) CL prolly bought the new proggie, not coded it themselves, who know what market that is for.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Ok... here is what I have to say. 1 - This product is STUPID! The web boom is over, and 3D on the web has been nothing but an absolute failure and will remain so for a long time to come because there is no business use for it and users really dont like tons of spinning and whirling junk on their screens. If 3D on the web were viable companies with GOOD programmers like Macromedia, IBM, Adobe, Microsoft and Apple would have been all over it years ago. Even Shockwave 3D is barely hanging on. They have all put up better efforts than this and they all bombed. I guess CL thinks that Avatar Lab was some kind of success? Or maybe another company just pumped some money into CL to get them to write this new turd. 2 - If you had any doubts that CL has absolutely no plans to put out a Mac version of Poser 5, let this be your eye opener! CL has ZERO focus when it comes to product planning and development, and very poor programming skills in house and their entire product like is demonstrative of this. 3 - If you ever expected to get a solid and speedy version of Poser 5 for PC let this be your eye opener! Actually finishing a program before moving on seems to be something that CL just cant handle, or doesnt care to. Interactive environments already exist online through gaming engines and MMOLRP, and many of them are almost photorealistic. The Viewpoint format and concept is dead and gone. Get over it.

Bookmark

• For the user who says P5 is too hard to use(as in complicated) my advice would be to crawl in a box and seal it shut unless you plan to take time to learn something new. * I believe that this has really had nothing to do with most of the criticism regarding P5. Quite the opposite, in fact, as it has always seemed to me that those who have pushed the program the farthest and hardest have found the most to complain about, while the staunchest defenders have also been the ones struggling to get to grips with even the simplest of the new features. Maybe it all boils down to expectations. This, of course excludes the unfortunates who had problems getting it to work in the first place... HOWEVER... Regarding Pro-V, although I agree with the sentiment that it would have been a kick in the teeth for P5 users to discover that CL had been putting their resources into developing this mega-app while neglecting the development of P5, I suspect (but don't know) that the app has probably been developed by the parent company (EGI-SYS) or associates, but is being marketed through CL simply to give it a US branding and purchase point. Even in these strange times it seems unlikely that the CL developers, who a few short months ago were working without pay to get the product out the door, and have since then been held pretty firmly to the bug fixing grindstone could have conjured this kind of rabbit from a hat in their spare time. Bill

Regarding Pro-V, although I agree with the sentiment that it would have been a kick in the teeth for P5 users to discover that CL had been putting their resources into developing this mega-app while neglecting the development of P5, I suspect (but don't know) that the app has probably been developed by the parent company (EGI-SYS) or associates, but is being marketed through CL simply to give it a US branding and purchase point. Even in these strange times it seems unlikely that the CL developers, who a few short months ago were working without pay to get the product out the door, and have since then been held pretty firmly to the bug fixing grindstone could have conjured this kind of rabbit from a hat in their spare time.>> I agree with Bill, his explanation is the only thing that makes sense.

From the company description on the EGISYS website: *********************************************************** EGISYS designs and develops tools, technologies, databases and solutions for the integration of animated 3D models and movement data into the Internet and standard software products *********************************************************** That seems to the main technological area of the company's development team. Maybe someone (with broadband) who has downloaded the demo, should check to see if the developer's names are listed in the documentation or help files. Bill

I agree with Bill, his explanation is the only thing that makes sense. Well, the other explanation that makes sense is that we have all been decived all along. Or even another explanation that makes sense is that CL just really doesnt have a solid business plan and is instead flailing about trying not to go under, thereby showing eratic business operation. Or even another explanation that makes sense is........

snickers at ScottA's excellent snickers snicker. (and activates the ebot)

I agree with Bill, too. Indeed, I made a similar suggestion over on PoserPros a few hours ago. With that (and the general paranoia pervading this place) in mind, I'd like to state that I am not a clone of williamsheil, I don't know williamsheil, and nor do I know anyone who's played williamsheil on TV. ;-)

Doom, Dooooom and Gloooooomm!!!! History is against Curious Labs!

MIMIC, way back when was to be bought out by DAZ, and the other...

Metacreationss "rotating product in the browser window" thingy.

My FUTURE SEE-ER says that Curious Labs WILL in fact release an OS-X version of Poser 5, and six months latter either be bought out by DAZ or collapse down to their competing product.

.... so that's just, what, about 4 years before that happens! LOL! ; )

"I believe that this has really had nothing to do with most of the criticism regarding P5. Quite the opposite, in fact, as it has always seemed to me that those who have pushed the program the farthest and hardest have found the most to complain about, while the staunchest defenders have also been the ones struggling to get to grips with even the simplest of the new features. Maybe it all boils down to expectations." Though I agree with the last statment, I must contest. I have not had a problem getting to grips with even the simplest new features...and I've been a staunch defender of the program.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Sleep does such horrible things for my sanity level... A couple points of clarification: I was not Flaming. Iwas pointing out the continued futility of whining about the darn thing not working and this company -- which is absolutely no different from 80% of the companies in any industry in the world (what, they're special just 'cause they make Poser?) -- going off and making a new product (which likely was developed simultaneously with P5, if not earlier than that). It is the whining that must needs cease. Jack has always put up thoughtful posts, and tries hard (though not without succumbing on occasion) to avoid sinking to name calling (stop laughing, now -- he does try. You guys try to do that if you're so perfect...). My issue is with the "yeah, me too!" posts which generally indicate little more than reading and jumping in. As for standing up to Jack, there is no such thing. Besides, he's likely taller than I am and I sit down to type. The situation is simple: if you think that you have been screwed over by Curious Labs, the tiny division of a tiny company that doesn't even really exist in the US, then make that known by exercising your right as a consumer to force them to fix what they claim is a functional product. Yes, that will cost money to do. Money that if you win, will be repaid to you. Yes, it will actually require effort on your part above and beyond sitting on your derriere and tip tapping out your latest whine without wisdom. oh me, oh my -- what is that I spy? Come on, folks. I would be willing to wager a class action could be had here (though being broke, t'would have to be something less than cash). IF you are to comment, put thought into it. If you do not know, then educate yourself first. Jack has, despite being something of a joke to many, and continues to do so. Lastly, there is one minor thing I should note -- I lack even the reasonable facsimile for sanity. Sticks and stones might break my bones, but words echo in my head eternally....

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I think they have the decimal point one place too far to the right.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Multiple Undo/Redo: Multiple levels of undo/redo provide the flexible editing capabilities you expect from a professional application. Guess that shows us where Poser 5 is positioned.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

::yawn::

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

It amazes me how so many people are willing to look the other way while they are being ripped off. I want Hair collision that works! I want ah.. Well, anyway I want my Hair Collision! I want what I was promised! Seems like a lot of people are on CL's payroll around here. They haven't deliverd what they promised. And there is NO way anyone can talk around that.

....

I think CL may have over reached itself in providing what many folks on this forum said they wanted, particularly collision detection and cloth that draped with the gravity. Now they tried to add it to an improved P4 and got something like the F111, which was called "the flying Edsel", an unsellabel auto that market research said Ford needed. Unlike the Edsel, old apps really do die.

Gordon

Things were getting nice and quiet and productive, and now here's J.K. to stir up trouble again. Personally, I can't WAIT for Daz Studio to get here, so Jack and his gang can go off to play with it and leave the rest of us ALONE!!! -jjsemp

why are you yelling at J.K? he didn't make poser 5, hes just reporting , ( like the rest of P5 users) the big problems with it, i mean if you want blood, go after Kupa, hes your Poser God, not Jack.

...

They are yelling at Jack to take the focus off his original point: Poser 5 is a bad program and CL isn't going to fix it. It's a tactic used often by defenders of the guilty. Remember the OJ trial? He was innocent of the crime because Ferman used the 'n' word. See, it works! It's used a lot in criminal trials and politics. And the CL Loyal have been using it since P5's release. BTW, why should CL fix 5? They never fixed 4 and everyone eventually fell silent. And with all the defenders working so feverishly to slam people like Jack, the compliance will come even faster. FYI: I was one of the first "whiners" as we were called. I just quit because I got tired of arguing with a brick wall. Bravo, Jack! Keep it up. (But where were you the first month?! We coulda used some more help)

I'm yelling at Jack because once you've made a point, you don't have to keep making it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and....? ...annoying, isn't it? We've got the point. The constant repetition of it comes off as self-absorption...and...as somebody said above...hints at a personal agenda. -jjsemp

Kind of like the people who constantly post such rhetoric in the threads when someone is expressing a concern or complaint?

Jackson asked: "(But where were you the first month?! We coulda used some more help)" Honestly? I was stunned pretty much into silence to see CL release Poser 5 the way it was. I also hadn't received my NFR copy of Poser 5, so I didn't have a way to gage the bugs from the beta stage to final stage. It wasn't till many of the bugs being reported publicly did I begin to see a trend that disappointed and angered me. Also, in the interest of being honest, part of me was worried that if I spoke up it would go against any further involvement or relationship that I could have with CL and admittedly would also affect my livelihood. At which point I had to make a decision where my loyalities were going to lie... obviously, I've choosen speak out against CL and Poser 5 and destroyed any possiblity of having ties with that company. It wasn't an easy choice and will certainly affect my livelihood down the road, but between the EULA issue and Poser 5's bug issues... it was a choice I had to make. Jack

The thing is it shouldn't affect your relationship with CL. Ya see, this is AMERICA! Where you can have unpopular views and opinions without any fear of backlash or reprisals! And I would think you would be able to see that from the threads here are Renderosity! Freedom and Liberty are still going strong in America! Of course that means people like jjsemp, MachineClaw, and soulhuntre are free to be jerks as well.

Haha. The Jerk was a funny movie.

"Also, in the interest of being honest, part of me was worried that if I spoke up it would go against any further involvement or relationship that I could have with CL and admittedly would also affect my livelihood. At which point I had to make a decision where my loyalities were going to lie.." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm... so you did not "speak up"About the flawed state of the initial release until it became apparrent that there was no money to made as a P5 product merchant?? thanks for your honesty , im not being sarcastic, as MAC, Lightwave, Cinema4DXL, poserpro4 user, I have no dog in this poser5/CL loyalty fight, but i think more people should disclose potential financial/business ties to Companies that they defend or heavily endorse here in these forums. it would prevent alot of anger and mistrust after events such as the intentional sale of a heavily promoted product that was known to be rather "defective" in some areas. Awaiting DAZ Studio For MAC OSX :-) .

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I've largely stayed out of this thread, for two reasons: 1) I've already gotten my $0.48 in over at PoserPros on the subject, where the flames were largely self-contained and sporadic, and 2) In about a week, I'll no longer be using Poser 5, having traded the P5 license in for a second P4/PPP license. OTOH, there are a few things to keep in mind here. First off, This second product looks like an EGIsys puppy, with Larry, Steve etc merely lending their names to it, or providing some sort of project management role. Also, we don't know the timeline of that second program's development. In contradiction, perhaps CL should be spending mroe of its time and resources not only on fixing what's broke in Poser 5 for windows, but in getting a Mac version of P5 put together. They have my pity in the Mac department, since they got caught between OS9 and OSX dev cycles, can't get any dev help from Apple for OS9, and don't have an OSX customer base big enough to make it worth getting up an OSX version. Kinda sucks either way you look at it. OTOH, this entity called Business is a cold, hard thing, and DAZ Studio isn't going to wait for Curious Labs to catch up - it'll release when it's ready, and then CL will have to persuade folks to buy from them from now on, instead of simply assuming that low price alone will put them ahead among the buying hobbyists. It'll be interesting, to say the least. I actually ahve faith that CL may be able to pull off some sort of miracle, but unless they concentrate their resources, they'll have a hard time of it. 3D web stuff isn't near mature enough to be viable, and the Internet isn;t near powerful enough to utilize it on a large scale. I just hope Steve knows what he's doing... /P

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12440&Form.ShowMessage=983210

Beta Forum post with some relivancy to this thread. older post earlier in Dec, before CL dropped the Copy protection and released SR2.1. #32 is Jack's post and #43 is Kupa's response. It's an interesting read if ya like all this stuff. If not, don't bother, it's a long thread.

Yup, it's all about survival. CL kicked an unfinished P5 out the door because they were severely strapped for cash - they HAD to hurry to market, against better judgement. Too much enthusiastic inclusion of too many bells and whistles made the product a much more difficult proposition to develop and get stable than they had originally reckoned with. And cash ran out along the way. So... let the customers beta test, after all, they're a friendly bunch and hobbyists and enthusiastic and all, so we'll work it out together. :o) But it didn't work out. And now they're struggling still, severe stability and functionality issues are still snapping at their heels, and DAZ Studio is coming. So CL is worried! I really, really hope that they work it out, I love Poser. But I won't buy P5 until people are happy more often than they complain, and we're not there yet. But this other Pro-V thing - wow, standing up against DW MX and GoLive, that's like opening a tiny burger joint next door to MacDonalds and charging 4 times as much, it doesn't work, simple. Dead in the water for sure. :] Fish

"I just quit because I got tired of arguing with a brick wall." - Jackson Yeah, I just got bored with it after a time, Jackson, except for dropping in to watch what's still ongoing. Started to eat into time I needed to spend on other things I enjoy doing.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"Kind of like the people who constantly post such rhetoric in the threads when someone is expressing a concern or complaint?" Yeah, as I said...annoying, isn't it? -jjsemp

Amusing actually, but why quibble over semantics? ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"It wasn't an easy choice and will certainly affect my livelihood down the road, but between the EULA issue and Poser 5's bug issues... it was a choice I had to make." Integrity is priceless. Thanks Jack.

Gee it's funny. Poser 5 has worked just fine for me from the beginning, as it has for so many others. DAZ's fortunes have relied totally on their support of Poser. Now are we supposed to put all our faith in DAZ to come out with a product to replace Poser? Will it be able to use all our Poser stuff? I won't believe in DAZ Studio until it's been around a few months.

Gee its funny. Poser 5 has not worked for me from the beginning, as it has not for so many others. I also won't be purchasing DAZ studio until its been around for a while (sorry DAZ not your fault). Seems prudent after my experience with P5 thus far. Perhaps a demo version would be a good move on DAZ's part. If they have confidence in their product, this move would dissolve any fears from those of us that are justifiably gun shy at this point.

"Now are we supposed to put all our faith in DAZ to come out with a product to replace Poser?" NO......I think DAZ sees an opportunity to fill a void in the market and grow their 3D character business the consumer market will decide what program gets "replaced" "Will it be able to use all our Poser stuff?" probably not ,all We know it uses Vicky3 so theres a LARGE portion of the poser base already as far as the posette/Dork loyalists etc. part of embracing the future is letting go of the past. "I won't believe in DAZ Studio until it's been around a few months." I imagine DAZ ,Like Newtek,MAXON,Discreet, AliasWavefront et all, is not looking for "believers" But paying customers who demand a modern day 3D character application that uses Modern non Modal OS interface standards, hardware accleration, OPenGL BlaH Blah...... you Know the rest.

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For 5 mins guys can you stop going on. Where I am it's the early hours of the 1st of january. Happy New year one and all and I hope there are solutions to all these problems in 2003. Best wishes Catlin

I think I throw my five cents in... I am a MAC user and I rely heavily on Poser for the development of facial expression simulation in my scientific work. The advantage of Poser is the Python scripting interface where I can do everything I want. I tested all major products on the market for Mac and PC - in Poser we have the steepest learning curve, and you get results very fast. I also use Eyematic face station - for this reason we made morph targets on Don and Judy and run them in 3ds - boning them was one days work for a newbie- Why doesnt DAZ bring out bone systems for other programs ? This would open new markets to DAZ and help many people to secure their investments in DAZ products, morph targets and machines they have made. I just bought two PCs for running Poser 5 and I never had any problem with Poser itself, but the machines are a pain in the a.... Poser rendering is still very slow even on a 2.6 gig machine and all new parts like cloth simulation are really poorly documented - I do not see that somebody with a smaller machine even can use it. A simple cloth simulation of 270 frames on a figure took about a week to create and calculate the final movie without raytracing. It seems to be useless for any workflow. Look at the galleries - as many P5 users are out there, do ya see any cloth or wind simulation - even raytracing is very rare. But what I hate most is that many old bugs are still there in P5. If Poser will survive then the whole code has to be rewritten in a more modern fashion, I can not understand that the oldfashioned P4 renderer runs at the same speed on any machine - there must be something wrong deep down inside. There are render engines who can render more than 60.000 polys with textures in real time on a PC - I have seen them. As I was just curious I tried to find out who is egisys - this seems to be a university based company, mainly run be students or so. The company is on the market for many years - but without having a product, so I wonder who is financing the whole thing and where the money comes from. Poser itself is a good idea and a bad product - they just should get rid of this ridicoulos Metacreation s interface and I fear that they now will stick together again with the loosers - like in the case of Avatar lab and Adobes 3d thingie which seems to be dead. Happy New Year !!!!!!!!!!!

"Now are we supposed to put all our faith in DAZ to come out with a product to replace Poser?" Put your faith where you like. Having seen DAZ Studio, I can tell you two things for sure: 1) it won't be out for quite awhile, which means that CL still has a shot at getting their act together. Whether they will or not will depend on their coding skill and the patience of their customers. 2) It is being built not as a 'replacement for poser', but as a means to allow you to professionally use your Poser stuff. "Will it be able to use all our Poser stuff?" That's what they're shooting for, but it'll also be able to use other stuff as well. The alpha version I saw imported Lightwave objects and scenes. I'm certain that there will be a competent array of import/export capabilities included. "I won't believe in DAZ Studio until it's been around a few months." Again, DAZ isn't approaching it as if they were building a religion - they have much more practical goals in mind. -------- "It wasn't an easy choice and will certainly affect my livelihood down the road, but between the EULA issue and Poser 5's bug issues... it was a choice I had to make." Integrity is priceless. Thanks Jack. Err, Lapis? It isn't a question of "integrity", it is a question of business sense. When you are forced to make business decisions that affects whether or not you can afford to pay your bills and feed your family, you do what you have to. Anything else would be flat-out stupid. It is amazingly easy to preach about integrity when you're safely employed elsewhere... it's quite another story when it's your gonads laying there on the chopping block. /P

it's quite another story when it's your gonads laying there on the chopping block. Thats more than true