Da3dalus opened this issue on Jan 03, 2003 ยท 15 posts
Da3dalus posted Fri, 03 January 2003 at 12:39 AM
jstro posted Fri, 03 January 2003 at 9:15 PM
I've been reading your excerpts as you've been posting them and I think you have a great little story developing here. Stick with it. I have some suggestions you may or may not want to incorporate. Up to you. I may be a little over sensitive as to commas right now, as I have recently gotten back an edited manuscript that had tons of comma corrections on it. Hope you find these comments helpful. jon Of times past Of Times Past (More an issue of style, I think, but I kind of expect Title Caps on chapter titles.) Four years previously I think some sort of punctuation is called for here; a colon or hyphen perhaps? Also, four years previously to what? This is Chapter 1. his fifteen-year old I'm told that 1 through 10 are written as words, i.e. one through ten, while 11 and above should use numerals. his wife Mary often his wife, Mary, often with her imaginary friends while Darius with her imaginary friends, while Darius tomboy. It is just that tomboy. It was just that (Consistency of tense?) ...Adam thought while handing the application ...Adam thought, while handing the application good reason not to want Arizona join the military. good reason not to want Arizona to join the military. married his high school sweetheart Mary and started married his high school sweetheart, Mary, and started until their feisty daughter Arizona had made until their feisty daughter, Arizona, had made would be his saviour was just one would be his saviour. It was just one Also, savior is the primary (American English) spelling, though saviour is a valid variant spelling. to sixteen for both men and women. to 16, for both men and women. It wanted to do everything it could to ensure that its citizens would be protected from a fate similar to that suffered by the millions of people who perished in the nuclear holocaust. How does dropping the age to 16 ensure this? I think just a little explanation such as; By dramatically expanding the size of it's standing army, the government hoped to show the world a force so dominant that none would dare attack it, and thus ensure... (or something along those lines). Even if that protection meant recruiting children and turning them into battle-hardened soldiers cynical with the world and its ways. Sentence fragment. Sentence fragments can be used to good effect, so you may want to keep this. Just pointing it out. It could be reworked into a full sentence. But every time he had nothing for her. But every time, he had nothing for her. With Arizona having to wait a few weeks before her application would be approved, life on the farm returned to normal. However, she rushed down to greet the postman every time he came, hoping to receive word from the recruitment office. But every time he had nothing for her. This kept going on for two months, and then, at last, the letter came. This passage seems awkward to me. morning in January when she morning in January, when she The months raced by until a chilly winter's morning in January when she had to say her farewells to her family at the bus station. "This is it. You are finally going to the Army," Adam muttered. "Don't be angry dad. You know I was meant to do this. Like you said, if things don't work out for me, I will come back. If not, then I will visit you as soon as I can. Take care of mother," and with a mischievous glint in her eye added, "and be sure not to let Darius take over the farm." I think when the speaker changes, it calls for new paragraphs. So: The months raced by until a chilly winter's morning in January, when she had to say her farewells to her family at the bus station. "This is it. You are finally going to the Army," Adam muttered. "Don't be angry dad. You know I was meant to do this. Like you said, if things don't work out for me, I will come back. If not, then I will visit you as soon as I can. Take care of mother," and with a mischievous glint in her eye added, "and be sure not to let Darius take over the farm." Arizona stepped unto the bus Arizona stepped onto the bus her best impression of her dad. her best impersonation of her dad.
~jon
My Blog - Mad
Utopia Writing in a new era.
ChuckEvans posted Sat, 04 January 2003 at 9:36 AM
The comma, it seems, is the hardest punctuation mark to "pin down". I went to a class taught by a guy who was head of the English department at Emory Univirsity. He also had a PhD in the field. When it comes to clauses and dependent clauses, he taught the use of a comma should adhere to this little rule: DC, C. C DC. C C. (DC = dependent clause) (C = clause) ("," = where a comma is used) Examples: Joe wanted to speak to Mary but he changed his mind. (C C) By the time it was dark, Joe had managed to fix his flashlight. (DC, C) Joe had managed to fix his flashlight by the time it was dark. (C DC) HOWEVER... I have another reference book on punctuation that disagrees with that! So, go figure!
jstro posted Sat, 04 January 2003 at 9:47 AM
Yeah. I had a Technical Writing teacher in college that damn near beat commas out of me, so I tend to use them very sparingly. Then I get my manuscript back with 10,000 red marks on it for missing commas. And they wonder why I'm going bald! jon
~jon
My Blog - Mad
Utopia Writing in a new era.
ChuckEvans posted Sat, 04 January 2003 at 9:54 AM
Yeah, that sucks, Jon. One reference book I had even said it was correct to use a comma to indicate a pause. That the writer should include them so the readers were able to know exactly how the writer intended the text to be read. I've never seen that "rule" in any other reference.
dialyn posted Sat, 04 January 2003 at 10:16 AM
That is a writer's rule, not one put down by grammarian, and one that comes out of the oral tradition. If you read your story out loud and there is a place where you have to pause before you go on, that is a natural place to consider putting a comma. No commas or other punctuation lead the reader to believe that the sentence should be read in one breath. Often writers will use commas or dashes or even ellipses to produce the pause artificially in a sentence that wouldn't otherwise have such a pause. That's my take on it anyway. A strict grammarian would say: "no comma goes there" but the author says: "yes, I want a pause here and I don't care what your grammar book says." They might leave out the punctuation for the same reason. The grammarian would say: "comma goes here" but the author would say: "no, I want that sentence read in a rush and the punctuation would interfere with the flow." Writing is more than grammar. But we knew that.
ChuckEvans posted Sat, 04 January 2003 at 10:22 AM
Of course, there's the rub. You always have to bow to the point of view of the place you submitted it. That sucks when there is so much room for interpretation.
dialyn posted Sat, 04 January 2003 at 10:25 AM
Who pays the check gets the last word, unless you are confident you have someone else to sell to.
dialyn posted Sat, 04 January 2003 at 10:26 AM
Or if you are someone like Stephen King who can write anything anyway he wants and they will publish it.
ChuckEvans posted Sat, 04 January 2003 at 10:30 AM
"bow to the point of view of the place you submitted it." I guess that didn't come out right. I'll try again. If I were submitting, I'd surely like to know the reviewer's opinion on commas (and other personal grammatical quirks) so I could conform to it (them). I think it would improve my chances a tiny bit.
dialyn posted Sat, 04 January 2003 at 10:40 AM
That you would find by asking for a style sheet (if they have one) or look to see if they specify that they follow a certain style in their requirements (and they sometimes will mention it) and by reading what has already been published so you get a sense of their preference. It's not their job to tell you how to place a comma before they've committed to buying your work. It's your job to research where you are doing the submittal. It's just like a job interview. Here's the thing. If you have written a great story, the commas aren't going to keep it from being published.
dialyn posted Sat, 04 January 2003 at 10:41 AM
I bet anything Da3dalus would like the thread to return to talking about the story. Apologies for the hijacking.
Da3dalus posted Sun, 05 January 2003 at 10:25 PM
Thanks jstro for the helpful tips. While I have been writing reviews for a while know, fiction writing is something new for me. I therefore appreciate all the input I can get. I will go through all your suggestions and see how best to implement them ;-) No worries dialyn, it is interesting to read about the comma. Especially for me who is just starting out with creative writing. Thanks all, Iwan
Crescent posted Mon, 13 January 2003 at 12:42 PM
I think you try a little too hard on the details. Sometimes they get in the way of the flow. This story is in Adam's point-of-view, so some of the details mentioned seem awkward for him. Signing the permission form was the hardest thing 40-year old farmer Adam Berringer had to do for a very long time. Does he think of himself all the time as a 40 year old farmer? Maybe something like this, instead: In all his forty years, signing the Army permission form was the hardest thing Adam Berringer had to do. You mention the farm farther down, so you don't need to hit the reader upfront with his profession. Here's another example: Unlike her brother, Darius, who at five years her senior and the more pragmatic of the two, Arizona never cared for life on the farm. It would be simpler to say: Unlike her older and more pragmatic brother, Darius, Arizona never cared for life on the farm. (There doesn't seem to be a need to say how much older his is, so why put it in here?) Along with the recommendations above, I'd recommend a bit of pruning to tighten your wording up, but otherwise this is quite good. She did not grow up a tomboy. She just never developed the same love for the land that Darius had. Sorry for the late chime-in! Hope this helps, Cres
Da3dalus posted Mon, 13 January 2003 at 1:46 PM
Your comments are always appreciated Crescent no matter when you post them ;-) The story is coming along nicely, but I find myself constantly going back to the earlier parts (like this one) and making small corrections. Eventually, this will lead to a much better and well-rounded story. Of course, this means that I will have to post the finished product (whenever that may be) here on Renderosity. Thanks again for all your support. Iwan