I know I'll get some grief from the "nudity in art is fantastic, man, and the human body is beautiful" crowd for mentioning this, but this is really chapping my ass.

I recently posted a nude pic (actually my first 'real' Poser render, done only a few days after purchasing the program) and in a days time it has been viewed well over 200 times. I know I should be flattered, but honestly the pic I'm referring to is absolute crap and has pretty much zero artistic value. As it's creator, I can honestly say that I wouldn't hang this piece on a shithouse wall, yet because it has a femme in the thumbnail and has the 'ol nudity flag, it gets more viewings than anything I've posted to date. Huhhh?

I'm not trying to get into a debate, heated or otherwise, about nudity in art. Hell, when it's appropriate I love a good nude. The thing that bothers me is that I've posted work here at Renderosity that is INFINITELY better than the aforementioned nude, yet my pics of street corner tough guys, boxers, comic book heroes, guitar-playin' rock stars, surreal landscapes and WW2 aircraft have all gone unseen. Are there huge roving bands of horny 14-year-old boys prowling the galleries here in search of something to stimulate their prurient interests? That's all I can figure...

The problem, I think, with the idea of a horny 14-year-old boy is that this describes most men ages 12 to 120. A nude female has got to be more of a common denominator, I'd have thought, than a comic-book here (generically or - more so - a specific character) so I can see how they'd receive fewer viewings despite being immensely superior images. Cliff Bowman, father of one and part-time horny lad who admittedly didn't view either the nude image or most of the others :(

Consider the quality versus quantity theory. If you want quantity of hits, go the T&A route. If you want a better quality of viewers, then do stuff you like and forget about the mob. You might want to post ones you really like on the forum .... seems like that encourages more thoughtful views. Excuse me, I'm running out before the "all nudity is art and only nudes are art and you're just a nasty old prude if you do anything but nudes" crowd comes running in. These threads attract them like flies. I personally believe there are well done nudes that are art, but that's not what we're talking about here. It hurts to spend time on a graphic only to have it ignored for the usual boobs (take that anyway you like). Good luck. But don't let it get to you or you'll find yourself thinking too much about "them" hits and not enough about what you really would like to be doing with your graphics.

Whats so funny is we are talking 3D nudity.... Not even real women....or men.... and sometimes child-like meshes that are partly or fully nude... Thats what got me out of all this a while back.... I just woke up one morning and said what the heck am I doing? I mean to model a woman is one thing but to just play with morphs and textures like this mesh is a real woman is.....well I dont know what it is but it sells so it must mean something to someone.....I better shut up before talk like this gets me baned but I hear where you are coming from.....I think....

Similar to what dialyn touched on is, "consider the audience." The Poser Gallery will inherently depict and snag a log of viewers drawn to nudes. You might want to look at posting your artwork in other galleries if they're appropriate (e.g., if you do a lot of postwork, you might think about the mixed medium gallery) or other sites that cater to the genre that your artwork is targeted.

I think that the wrong perspective is looking at the raw numbers. It's well known that some things "sell" and nudes are on the top of that list. Generally, the tackier and crappier, the more seen, when it comes to popular media such as TV or the Internet. So don't care about how many see your picture. Build a gallery you can be proud of, and care more, perhaps, about the quality of the comments you receive. Sure, there might be useless comments too, but sometimes, someone writes something that is meaningful. I think this makes it all worth while although it perhaps happens rarely.

As a member of several Poser fora, I can tell that on almost any site with a gallery, the overwhelming majority of images are gorgeous women in their 20s with fabulous makeup -- and those images aren't being created by horny 14 year olds. In some respects, Jett, it becomes a vicious circle after a while: DAZ et al create things for Vicky, thumb them on the default, which just happens to be a gorgeous 20-something, and because most people can't think outside the box that much, we get regaled with countless variations on the same theme. That in turn leads to people viewing that as a "trend", and we get still more images of the same cookie-cutter ilk. Even some of the so-called "Masters" around here have succumbed to refusing to go outside a very narrow range because that kind of work "sells" to a community that can't think beyond a really small framework. It has nothing to do with nudity, when you think about it. Images of 20-something supermodels just about always get the big hits... and I'm sure the revisionist art historians will parade in with "the beauty of the female form throughout art history" -- when in fact so-called pinup art is a fairly modern development (Hell, in classical Greece, the usual rule of thumb was only men were shown nude while women were clothed from neck to toes). But it's pretty sad when we allow ourselves to be boring -- and that, whether people want to admit it or not, is exactly what's going on: the same model, the same props, the same default lighting more often than not. Zzzzzzzz. Someone please wake me when the Next Big Thing comes along, okay? I was actually glad to see the Mouse, because it gave us a bit of a break from the relentless parade of Poser-created clones. But it's sometimes fun to tweak people's noses at this: back when I had a gallery on this site, I posted an image that had, as a thumb, a nude woman in silhouette behind venetian blinds. When you opened it up, there was an image instead of her really angry father, telling the little perv viewer to take a hike before Dad did a tap dance on his face. Over four hundred hits in three days, bud. And more than a few pissed-off comments from people who didn't enjoy getting jacked around in their search for virtual tit. So heed the sage advice in post 2 and screw 'em all. Do what you enjoy, whether it's xeroxed nudes or the very arcane and strange work of DavidHo. The numbers are irrelevant around here.

I haven't seen the image that you posted that you say gets so many views, but I could comment on the amount and kind of language-out-of-context in you post. Makes me not want to view the image - nude or not. I'm more than a little suspicious of why you posted either/both. Best wishes, archrendr

Here's proof o' the puddin' - take a look at the Holiday gallery, which is very small and will take a nano second to browse. Then look at the two graphics with the greatest amount of hits. I'm not saying they aren't good graphics. But are they the best of those few that are posted? Clearly sex sells. Which is why advertisers use it so much. But everyone who creates graphics has a choice of whether it is more important for you to get hit on more or try to do something original and perhaps not get as many views. Okay, there's something wrong with the way that sentence came out but I'm not in the mood to edit. One thing for sure is that you probably are getting additional views because you posted and some of us are looking at your gallery that didn't before. And you do have some very good graphics posted there (from my amateur point of view) with a distinct style and point of view. One thing I've noticed is that, for whatever reason, my views modestly go up when I post on the forums...so just stay active and you may find your audience and they will find you. Just a thought.

Nah, you won't get hit to hard by the "nudity in art is fantastic, man, and the human body is beautiful" crowd, but you will get labelled as one of the "Nudity is wrong, it's not a form of art, and only what I say is art is" crowd... Unforunately, the war between the two was started a long time ago, here, and every few weeks a new battle starts up... Be smart, Jett, if you really are into art in any form, stay outta the arguements, they really aren't anything more than "this is art" "is not" "is, too" "uh-uh" "uh-huh" matches... Only reason I even read through them these days is that I'm waiting for someone to get called a "poopyhead"...

Philodox the war between the two was started long long ago, before Poser was created (and therefore not here). You poopyhead!

I like Dialyns advice . And I would add what my husband just said when I mentioned this thread to him. He said " People , mainly men but not all, just like looking at bumpy round bits, its easy and it takes them back to babyhood " Hmmm... You gotta figure that the few( comparatively ) who have looked at your not- nude work have really appreciated what they've seen. As to what wgreenlee1 adds, actually I do feel like I'm playing with cyber dolls sometimes. But what the hey ? I haven't been posting here long, to teach myself PS, Painter & Poser to add to my professional arsenal is mainly why I'm doing this, - it is too easy to get hung up on viewing numbers- my personal favorite images are also the least viewed.

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

"Are there huge roving bands of horny 14-year-old boys prowling the galleries here in search of something to stimulate their prurient interests? " Now you've got it!!!!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Y&Artist=Penguinisto

I think I already proved this... My worst render has an overwhelming majority of hits. No, really... see for yourself. I whomped it out in about 20 minutes, used the default P4 render and rendered it at its current reslution (and at 72dpi), and only used GIMP to convert from .bmp to .jpg because GIMP does .jpg compression real well. IOW, it is technically the suckiest image I have ever had the courage to admit to. I did it to prove a point(and to poke fun at the horny 14-y/o crowd at the same time :) ), and it looks like the point was well-proven. I can safely say that the responses prolly threshed out into two categories: 1) "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh shit! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!" 2) "Penguin you fucker - how come they doing some kinda lez thing with each other? Yeah, and my dick is big enough for BOTH of them! It's YOU that has a little dick, bird-boy!" ...err, or variations thereof. 'course, I obviously haven't made it into the hot 20 yet, huh? ;)

Oh, and I sorta tweaked it a bit further with the question about TOS thingies, but I didn't want someone complaining about being insulted and having a TOS violation. /P

Jettboy, your streetguys have not gone unseen, I think they are masterpieces. I think you've gotten comments from me and others. I just put up two pics over the last two days-- one's a young man and the other is a scantily clad V3. The Vicki 3 almost didn't make it to the gallery because I thought it was so poorly done. Of course it got more comments than the guy, I'm at the point where I just don't care any more. Except for the few controversial stuff I've done, most of the good work gets about 4 comments and that's fine. I have got to get past the Judy Garland syndrome [I need that applause or they don't love me] and post more men to the gallery. I love doing renders of guys, they are tougher to make interesting. Do remember-- I'm talking to myself here too-- that comments en masse mean nothing. Only individual comments from people you know and respect mean anything at all. I try to mention something special I like about the picture when I comment so the artist knows it was a picture I liked, not a subject or a girlies theme-- though I'm not above remarking on a hot guy either:)) For all I know, the nice people who liked Silver might have been trying to cheer me up as I indicated she was less than par-- she's crosseyed, and fight as I could, I couldn't uncross them enough. I think it might be an issue with V3 to V2 tex. Hope not. Her pose is also stiff and I disliked her enough not to even try to fix it. Emily

Perhaps they click open the thumbnails more often because they're hoping to find more boobage hidden off stage?

Just imagine what the galleries would be like without T&A ??? In my gallery are maybe 2 flag for nudity...one has 797 hits, the other 668... admittedly, they are just excellent images :)

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

In the search for photo-realism, nothing is a better barometer than human nudes in how we're progressing. Personally, that's what I tend to look at. I'll even look at a male nude if the thumb looks like it may contain a serious attempt at photo-realism. Oh, and a cute face catches my eye. It's just how I'm wired. -WTB

If a figure is nude without a reason, then it's pointless and a bad stab at erotic. Pointless how, you ask? If a chick is standing in front of a McDonald's playing with her tits - that's not art, that's just really bad art. And, self-admittedly, many artists do pin-ups which are, from my knowledge (I may be wrong), back from WWI and WWII where soldiers would 'pin-up' pictures of sexy women to keep them - well - happy. And not happy has in spirits happy. Hard in the groin happy.

Roflol....how about in front of Hardee's then ???

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

I'm female, straight and I love pinup art. I'm not sure why. I think it has to do with it being fun and some of it is damn spunky women with attitude, not such a bad thing. But then I also like an erotic edge to art, Accent on edge, not smarmy, not exploding boobs. Playing with tits in front of Mac Donalds can be amusing. Playing with one's tits dreamily in an obnoxious attempt to be romantic can be annoying. It really does all depend on whether there's any real talent behind it or somebody just plunked a naked girl down and threw anything behind her to make a picture. Emily

Now if she is adding real female breast milk to a cup of Mcdonald's coffee, it could be making an artistic statement. It would depend upon the lighting and the signage behind her. "Thick and creamy shakes" anyone?

Nicely put ,Emily. If anyone actually does want to know more about the historical/social origins of Pinup art the the introduction in "The Great American Pin-Up" by C.G.Martignette/L.K. Meisel, published by Taschen would be a good start. There was a bit more behind it than just naughty pics for soldiers to be hard 'n happy with. And if I could paint as half well as any of the artists represented in it I'd be happy ! Funny how these threads go off on a tangent.....

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

Well, my bewilderment about many of the Vicky pinups is that they don't look spunky. They don't look faintly lively. They look drugged (at least dopey) and vacuous. Or they are placed in positions and clothing that looks painful. Maybe that's a turn on for you all... that's fine as long as I have the choice not to look at it (which I do have the choice and I don't unless in error of judgement about a thunbnail). But why the fascination for blank looking women staring into space and thinking of England is beyond me. The fantasy seems to be the Poser equivalent of a blow up doll...all plastic, unlikely parts, and as empty of meaning and emotion as possible. whoopee. Oh well. It's a mystery to me. But I accept no one is making the graphics for me. That's fine. That's not my audience either. And that's okay. Each to their own.

'zackly. Now, I do build some pinup art, but if it's a relaxed female, at least her eyes point somewhere (like straight at the viewer, and not at a few molecules of air 6 cm. in front of her nose.) The "space wench" one was done on a lark, for a pin-up contest, and it is the one exception I've ever made to the rule that a character has to be looking at "something" (doesn;t quite matter what, but at least a viewer can draw the inference from it.) Incidentally, I find pin-up art far more enjoyable when there is actually something left for the imagination to chew on. /P

What makes you think Vicky's a "20 somthing"? Vicky is too self assured and mature to be a 20 somthing. She is definetly a 30 somthing! *8-)

I hate to inform you Vicki is only but a few years, if that, old. Her data was released by Daz, so you can check with them on the age of Victoria. :)

She's precocious for her age. But that might explain the blank look.

How dead can a horse get ? This'n been beaten into steak tartar.

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

To get back to the subject, Jettboy - I'm with the "Render what you want and screw the number of hits" brigade. It's not my - or your - job to elevate and/or educate "the masses". All you have to do is produce pictures which have some significance for you. If other people like 'em, great. If they don't even look, that's great too.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Oh, one last comment on why so many expressionless Vicki's out there--and quite a few but less expressionless Mikes. It's hard to make expressions that don't look cartoonish. You absolutely can't do the the canned ones-- unless you use nfredman's incredible Expressives series [unpaid plug]-- because most canned ones look like they were done by a fan of Tex Avery. Bug out eyes and all. Short story: hard to make Vicki have an expression and still stay pretty. Most commercial Vicki texs come already pretty, many people just stick with that. The fact that they also often come cross-eyed is an unfortunate fact as well. Put enough of them in a gallery and some people who don't know how to make their own aesthetic decisions think that's the norm-- that's the standard, gor help us! I've done a few, I'll admit it. I try hard not to. Emily

I guess what we need is a course in how to get expression into our Vickys without it seeming like a cartoon. Some people (not me) seem to be able to get a gentle, subtle emotion to play onto the faces and I couldn't say how they do it...is it manipulation of the face, light, shadow, postwork or some kind of combination? There are people who have a real ability to bring the Vickys (or any other figure) to life while the rest of us struggle. I guess that would be the difference between the artist and the rest of us. And I concede to their ability without argument. Do your own thing, Jettboy. If you're doing what makes you happy, the opinions of the rest of us really don't matter.

I wonder if it would be of any benefit for Renderosity to create a gallery specifically for nudes only, where they could all be collected in one place for those who prefer to view them, and have a nudity-free gallery for other types of images. Only a suggestion, yet maybe not a good one, I'm not sure. I don't mind nudes if they're done in good taste or if there's a logical reason for the nudity happening in the image, but I can agree that too many images are created simply for the sake of viewing a nude body. If you really look at them, they usually have one body part or another way over-emphasized (with the female nudes, it's usually the boobs and with the males...well, you get the idea). So many of these images are laughably out of proportion, physically. I think maybe a lot of them are created by newbies who have to get their artistic feet wet attempting a nude. Heck, the great masters did it, so it must be art. Sort of like the newbie Bryce users who just have to do the floating bubbles over the water pics, or the floating islands over the water. LOL Anyway, just my take on it. Melanie

Gawd, I was just joking. I can't believe people actually keep up with Vicky's "Age". heheheheh That's hilarious! I hope people realize she isn't real!

melanie: It drives me nuts when all the crap nude images are rated as EXCELLENT. It's BS. It's kind of pathetic, but Weaponist is doing a series of images where he's based a character on me - why - because I have never rated his images as excellent and point out what could be fixed and or suggested to the image. It's laughably pathetic; for someone who's supposed to be a man, he's always acted like a spoiled child. Now I know I'm not supposed to be "bashing" members, but does he have the right to passively aggressively bash me by doing a series of images referencing the evil "Empress"? By putting into the story values I challenge and do not agree with and making the evil "Empress" look to be the Hitler of all that is "art"? Is that allowed?

JettBoy: "Are there huge roving bands of horny 14-year-old boys prowling the galleries here in search of something to stimulate their prurient interests? That's all I can figure..." If this is the case, then what kind of reply are you expecting? I'm not sure what the source of your repeated irritation with the membership here is, but it's obviouis they don't act the way you want them to. But, that's another item of discussion. To respond to what I think your message was about: I looked over your gallery. I saw some stuff there that didn't interest me and some stuff that did. I took a quick "tally" of your views/comments/ratings. I think I liked the CD (leopard) one the best (would like to see the final product, too). I liked Vinnie (though the background looked out of place to me), Nick, Capt. America, too. I noted that the ones I liked the most were also ones that others seemed to like the most. Not by view count, but by the number of people taking the time make a comment. So, adding to what dialyn said, and what I have said before while whupping on this soon-to-be-gluetube: if views are important to you, then cater to it. If you don't feel like whoring yourself, then continue what interests YOU. And before you get upset at the crowd that scans the gallery for nudes, feel good that the stuff you are proud of got the most comments! There can be no scientific formula to use, so I'll call it the "Evans Axiom". "One comment is worth 50 views. To calculate total appreciation for a piece of work, multiply positive comments by 50 and add that to the total views (to yeild the TAR--Total Appreciation Rating)" So, a piece of art (we'll say your Capt. America) with 11 comments and 139 viewings yields a TAR of 689. Your EEEEEEk piece has a TAR of 410 (at this writing). BTW, my stuff is in the same situation. Though, maybe not as good as yours. Nevertheless, you'll be hardpressed finding a thread by me getting upset because people should be paying more attention to my "serious" stuff instead of the full-length nude I did one night. In closing, take a look at the calendars for sale in, say, MediaPlay (around November). Then go back and look in mid-January. Then remember all the swimsuits/singers/models/fantasy calendars that are no longer there. Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to find some quality B&W photojournal-type calendars still. And probably some Ansel Adams stuff will still be available. You see, R'City drew its membership from that same group of consumers who "sucked" down all the "skin" calendars.

"O, sir, to wilful men, The injuries that they themselves procure Must be their schoolmasters." King Lear, II, iv First it was art so wrongly eschewed, in favor of Vicky, so shamelessly nude. Now ev'n the pageviews are are quickly dismissed. Twas not my best work, I'm mightly pissed. For phillistines, knaves, and barbaric rubes, still gape in wonder at pendulous boobs. Twas attention I craved and yes many hits. But please, please, don't look at the tits. It must be the juveniles, the wankers, the tarts, who stand so unmoved by the greatness of art. Her form may be plastic, her smile vacated, But Vicky's the girl and most like her naked. So mount if you must the skeletal steed. Spur bony flanks and make all due speed. To disdain indignation 'twould be folly indeed. So pray thee brother, do but water the seed. But on this journey one might take to heart, That one man's folly is another man's art.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Penguinisto, I wish I could do that in 20 minutes. By the way, if somebody only spends 20 minutes on something, does that mean it's crappy ?

Well done, lmckenzie!

Technical question-- how do you stop notification e-mails from being sent without posting yet another reply and leaving the Notify box blank if you had ticked it in an earlier reply ? This time I'll leave it blank so I won't get an e-mail but is there another way to do it ? Please send me a private message if you care to answer this question because Imackenzie's verse is where I want to stop. Thanks.

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

"...you'll be hardpressed finding a thread by me getting upset because people should be paying more attention to my "serious" stuff instead of the full-length nude I did one night." I guess you are just a better man than I, amigo. In the future when confronted by a dilemma, artistic or otherwise, I'll just ask myself "What would ChuckEvans do?"

Gini, I think if you just don't click on the link in the e-bots and ignore them, after a while they stop. I've noticed that when I keep clicking on the link, it keeps it active, but when I stop and just delete the e-bot, they eventually stop. I could be wrong, but it seems to work for me. Melanie

Jett m'lad, despite my poetic(?) twit, I do feel your pain, if only intellectually. I deal mainly in ones and zeros, not art, as my fractured verse shows all too well. It has been said though that programming is more art than science so I posed myself a question. I write a wonderful program, powerful and elegant and post it somewhere with a screenshot. Someone writes code not half so good, but with a sexy interface and it gets downloaded 10 times more than mine. Would I feel that my talent was unappreciated, that flash won out over substance, that most are ignorant and the universe is tilted? In a word, yes! Would I then study the competition and go back and slap a fancy frontend on my app? Heck yes, if getting downloads was important to me. If I were merely content with the few nice comments I did get, then I wouldn't bother. I'm not suggesting that you should do more nudes. I am saying that if getting hits is something important to you then yes, that seems to be the key. If, however you make those nudes the best that you can produce, then perhaps the sting of public's taste will be somewhat eased by the knowledge that it is something you are proud of. Put two photo albums on your coffee table. One has pictures of your portly matron aunt cavorting nude in her garden. The other is filled with glossies of your gorgeous sister modeling the finest Paris couture. Bring them to me after a year, (whether your home is frequented by horny 14 year olds or elderly and pious members of the clergy), and I'll tell you which is which just by looking at the corners of the pages. This says nothing about the comparitive pulchritude of your female relatives. Hypothetically, of course, you might send me sister's phone number and failing that, the snaps of auntie would be appreciated as well. "Charlie, Starkist doesn't want tuna with good taste. They want tuna that tastes good." - Uncredited fish

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

lmckenzie, have you always been a genius, or what!? Since I've started posting here on Renderosity. 'bout 5 or 6 months ago, I could easily count the number of talented, intelligent, insightful, personable, opinionated (& proud of it) people I've met on just my lonely ten fingers...you, sir (or is it 'madam'?) are definately a thumb.

Back at ya Jett and dude will do, I hear sir and I think it's a bill collector. I wish I had your artistic talent. I really like "Tigers on Patrol," beautiful. Alas, you can't expect everyone to be into planes and military history though Gen. Chennault would appreciate it, I'm sure. Do whatever subject gives you that warm feeling of accomplishment. Everything else is just icing, sweet but ultimately fattening for the ego, not to mention clogging the arteries of imagination. Thanks for the kind words and how 'bout some P40's in a furball with Zeros? Of course, Vicky would make some mighty nice noseart too - just for icing, you know.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

EmpressZario writes: ----------------------------- melanie: It drives me nuts when all the crap nude images are rated as EXCELLENT. It's BS. It's kind of pathetic, but Weaponist is doing a series of images where he's based a character on me - why - because I have never rated his images as excellent and point out what could be fixed and or suggested to the image. It's laughably pathetic; for someone who's supposed to be a man, he's always acted like a spoiled child. Now I know I'm not supposed to be "bashing" members, but does he have the right to passively aggressively bash me by doing a series of images referencing the evil "Empress"? By putting into the story values I challenge and do not agree with and making the evil "Empress" look to be the Hitler of all that is "art"? Is that allowed? -------------------------- Zario, are you on crack? I was merely playing with a sci-fi story. Did I once mention your name in it? Maybe The Childlike Empress from the Neverending story should be pissed too, because I made the Empress in my little story evil. Jeeze.... As for the rating thing, it only pissed me off that you were purposely trolling my stuff and lowering the rankings because it didn't fit your personal tastes. Hell, you even wrote a comment on one of my older images that it would have been a great pic if her skin color was different and if she was wearing a nice dress and in a different setting! Things that had nothing to do with art!!!! I have since fixed this by not allowing rankings at all. I have gone a step further by not posting on this site recently. Too many trolls. I now reside at www.Poserchikz.com and am producing some fun art there. You'd love some of my newer stuff Zario! No nudity! Although I'm sure you would find some reason to hate it. Hey, I still have a Lesbian scene here in the top 20 Zario....Two women with nice bodies and "Suction Cup lips" as you call them. Go leave a comment on it! Oh wait, I forgot....You stopped leaving comments on my work since you couldn't lower the rankings. And you call me pathetic. Karl www.poserchikz.com