A note to all who took Proud to be American wrong. I did say that I don't agree to everything that america does. But I am proud to be whom I am. I don't like war. And if I could stop it I would. Please aim your insults to the politics for that is where the blame is due, not to americans that work their asses off, and try to live. I am one such american. I am proud of whom I am, I can not help if my country made some wrong decisions, I think all countries have their problems. But does that mean because of issues out of our hands, that all Americans are bad? NO!!!....I repeat NO!!! I have my points on politics which I kept out of my description. So the bashing would not fly. I see I was mistaken. Seeing this I think God needs to bless American. Damn straight I'm proud to be american. Even if I don't agree with all the politics. There ARE "GOOD" Americans. Do not make us look bad, because of the politicans(SP). We are not all them. United? I won't even go there. But do not bash me for being proud of my heritage. For some suit wearing Politican that claims to speak for me, when infact on many many issues they don't. I can stand and scream. But I am one, and can face reality. My voice won't be heard it will become lost in the wind of many that don't agree with me. Thank-You Chelle Anderson aka ~D.M. Ander~

Chelle, you are exactly right ... everyone has a right to be heard and hold their own opinions and feelings without being ridiculed or belittled for them. I can certainly relate ... same thing happened to me when I posted my "war is not the answer" image, but of course, I realized afterwards that in such a large and diverse forum, there are going to be those who have differing opinions and when we offer ours up for everyone to see, it usually opens a big can of worms. Some feel they have the right to slam their own opinions down our throats and be ugly and condescending about it, as if they are right and have all the answers. I happen to try and respect other's opinions, no matter how different they may be from my own. We all have the right to speak our minds. So, it's really easy to feel attacked ... but try not to be too awfully offended, it would happen anywhere ... it's a very touchy and emotional subject, with lots of opposing views.

Chelle: This is a hot issue. Those who speak out against the Bush doctrine will be called "unpatriotic" or "anti-American". It's always been that way. The counter has to be as strong, but respectful of the poor people who have been fooled by the neo-Conservative agenda. Nelson Mandela helped a lot today. It takes a lot of courage to do and say what he did. You have a lot to be proud of. I'm glad you are. I just hope one day we can all say, we're proud to be a part of the Human race. Till then, strap yourself in, it's going to be a rough ride. Good luck. Q PS: You should have been around during the bombing of Cambodia. Big turning point for my generation.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Chelle....Great Job, I loved it, and who cares what a couple of foreigners (Xabre & lue) think, They don't understand what our flag stands for (they're probaly communists,or terrorists), They don't konw how many Americans have died to give us what we have, they only know what is fed to them by the local media of their Respective countries. They may not love the US but they sure live our products, clothing, cars , music ,movies,food,and Software,Have you ever asked your self why these people hate us? Is because they eare jealous. Don't let these two persons get you down, stand proud and salute Old Glory and say GOD DAMN IT I'M PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!

Ask me a question, and I'll give you an answer.

Jealous? Maybe. More likely just unexposed to this way of life. They'd think differently otherwise.

Most of us here are like you darkwhispers so dont take it personal. Some people need to see a bigger picture not just there own back yard.

I consider myself a patriot, I respect the values depicted in our constitution. HOWEVER(and this will probably cause me some grief) I AM SICK OF THOSE WHO WIPE THEIR ASS WITH IT!!! I am ashamed, that our leaders have no clue what FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY mean. The people do not want a war, the world does not want this war, yet our government has decided that is wasn't a matter to compromise upon. To stand up and defy the UNITED NATIONS, what arrogance! The United Nations was formed so that the world could share a common democratic state and since it's opinion differs from that our leaders, our leaders are going to stand up in defiance and thumb their nose at this democratic system? They might as well be wiping their asses with this flag they salute. We the people declare those those in power are in violation of the principles that this great union is based upon. You will not serve another 4 years. You will be accountable for each and every life.

Holier than thou, I am not, this war is wrong!

Oh yeah, did I mention, Great work DW!

It's too bad a fine picture-- and it was extremely fine-- should produce such a rash of childish behavior. You did the right thing, you created a superior work that reflected how you felt. You even tried to make it easier for the "rebels without a clue" to accept it. Don't worry about how others took the render it moved a lot of people. Including me. Emily

I liked it and seriously appreciate that image and I agree with a lot of what you said. I love my Country and was proud to serve her once and, regardless of the circumstances, would be proud to do so again if I was able too. Jack

Good luck, iamonk. It took almost 30 years for us to get a good picture of what happened in Cambodia. The most accurate numbers are 700,000 civilians dead under the tons of US bombs. No war crimes trial. During the last Gulf war, the "highway of death" incident happened after the hostilities had officially stopped. No war crimes trial. The guy who ordered this illigal massacre was promoted. I hope you're right this time. But somehow, I doubt it. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

chelle, I agree with you too. :)

I saw the start of the comments when I left mine. It's a good image and very well done. I loved the texture on the flag. I was afraid you might run into the jerks though. Sorry they can't see the beauty. I had to turn off the comments once. People just can't see that pride for your country doesn't indicate acceptance of what the current government might be doing at any particular time. I don't agree with Bush right now but I'm still proud to fly my flag at home.

It's not a symbol for Bush and company.

...... Kendra

I don't think you need to explain yourself to anyone. You are what you are. It's no shame to be proud of what and who you are. Laurie (another proud American, who also doesn't agree with everything the government does, but wouldn't want to live anywhere else) :o)

I like living where I live. :) Europe is a pretty cool place. But yeah, I agree. actually, I think that reclaiming the flag as a symbol for average Americans and making sure its NOT a symbol for Bush and Co. (or any other politician with delusions of grandeur - and thats most of 'em in both parties) is a very good idea. :)

"and thats most of 'em in both parties" In most countries, I'd say.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

bijouchat: I imagine Europe would be pretty cool :o). I'd love to be able to visit sometime, especially France, Germany or Italy (all countries of my ancestry). I guess one always has a special feeling about the country in which they were born :o). Laurie

I am British, and proud of that fact, even though some of our politicians, led by the Prime Minister, seem to subscribe to the views of your President. In this country one particular party, minor and very biased tried to hijack our flag and turn it into a symbol for themselves alone. It did not work. The recent jubilee celebrations showed that our flag is a proud symbol for all, not just a few. We reclaimed the symbol of our flag from these bigots, and are proud to display it, as all Americans should be proud to display theirs.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

oh, definitely in most countries too. you think I like Schroeder... the womanizing drunk... lol. Gawd sakes no. lol. He's smarter than Bush though, but that's not saying a whole heck of a lot. They both suck.

runs off and hums that tax song everyone is so upset over... lol

I don't get this patriotism crap. I'm not at all patriotic, I don't get the point. No country/culture/religion is better than others, don't believe that nonsense. Trouble is, everyone in every stupid country and every stupid religion and every stupid culture is convinced that 'WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE ONLY WAY; ALL OTHERS ARE IDIOTS'. So by definition, since almost everyone on all sides is convinced of this, it's impossible. All conflicting opinions can't all be right. So maybe everyone is wrong instead - there is no better nation, culture, religion, politics, just different ones. If we all could see this and just get on with life instead, there would be no war. So get off your American high horses, you arrogant types, and see that the rest of the world is just as good, OK? This applies equally well to arrogant Muslims, Chinese, Chileans, Brits, whatever. :] Universal Fish

All politicians Suck big time, except maybe Bill C ;) I do wish they'd start listening to the people who gave them their jobs once in a while. I mean do they not realise they've let thousands of potential terrorists roam our countries free in the name of political asylum? Anyway the politicians will do what they please as usual & we'll still go on making art. It's a great picture DW but come on, you must have known someone would take offense when you made & posted it, afterall anyone who's not American these days is an Anti-American Terrorist even us in the UK. What worries me is when Osama & Saddam are gone who's going to be next on the hit list?

Who ever serves their purpose.

So did we create a hit list?! What worries me is the people liek Osama & Saddam are allowed to carry on and kill thousands or millions of people while other people or countries support them. Remember the World Trade Center victims, and the City of New York were not soldiers.

I checked out the picture. I thought it was nice, but didn't comment. Never thought it would raise such a storm. But then, this is a world-wide community isn't it? And the people out there who hate the United States, both within her borders and outside them, far outweigh those of us who love her. I've patiently read the screeds of those of you who have a problem with the United States and with President Bush in particular. I sit here, someone who considered himself a Democrat and a liberal up to the morning of September 11, 2001, and I can not believe the venom that is being spewed by Americans and foreigners alike. I'll be the first to admit that the US is far from right 100% of the time, and that our methods are not always the cleanest or most civil. My grandfather and seven of his brothers left their blood on the shores of Normandy, in Africa, in Italy and Germany. My peers and friends fought and died in Kuwait and Iraq not ten years ago. Why? Does anyone really think that they wanted to? What did we as a country or a people have to gain by fighting the Germans in WW II, or going to Kuwait during the Iraqi invasion? We went because we were asked to. We were begged to help fight the Germans. We were begged to fight the Iraqi's by the very people who saw fit to fly commerical aircraft into the World Trade Center buildings and kill over 3,000 innocent civilians. No, we are not always right. Vietnam was an enormous mistake. The way we treated our soliders, sailors, marines and airmen in the wake of Vietnam was an even more appaling mistake and a digrace to the memory of everyone who ever wore the uniform of this great country. We are not always right. But I think we deserve the benefit of the doubt. We, as a nation, give more money and food and aid than the entire United Nations combined. We are always willing to help in a fight, especially if it is a fight for freedom. We are hated and reviled. How do those three things add up? If we were colonialist, we'd rule the world. If we really hated Arabs and just wanted their oil, we'd take it. Who'd stop us? France? No one ever better compare the United States to Hitler when they are within arm's reach of me, because they will regret it. Too many of my family suffered and died, went to war and fought, were maimed and killed because of that egomaniacal little whacko. We may not always be right, we may in fact be dead wrong sometimes. But we are not bullies or despots. We are free, giving, caring strong people who believe that everyone should have those same rights. e.d.

Chelle... left you a comment... & nice render btw :o) Thomas

" When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!" " - Martin Luther King

whewy, this was alot to read, such passion in all these posts. I would say you did your job with this picture, I liked it. Although I may not be considered patriotic at all, I have trouble living in this country that bashes smokers, but yet continues to sell tobacco so the government can get the taxes on it, and give it away to Vietnam vets for free while over in Vietnam and get them addicted. I have trouble with this country who holds a presidential election, and the popular vote doesn't work, but the government says "we know what is best for you, you common people who are suppose to be in charge of the government really don't know what to do, so we will do it" I could go on and on, and I do try to change things cause I do live here, but is this my country or is this the governments country? All I seem to do is help make money for the politicians, let the fat cats eat well, I can live on nothing. Yep, I have a strong confiction regarding our government, not a good one I might add, I wish I could get my country back to the people where it belongs ! Sharen

We used to have someone who thought like that Sharen, Guy Fawkes was his name. We are all free, free to die for the government. Did you know we in the UK weren't told about the Risin till 3 days after it was found, they'll probably wait a week to tell us a nuke has been set off over here too.

Gotta agree with Fishnose on this one (::waving at Fish::). The image itself? It's okay, but nothing all that special, to be bluntly honest. I would have prefered to see more compositional space given to the flag than the standard chick if indeed "proud to be American" is the message -- after all, what's the real symbol here? The flag? Or perfect makeup and a fab-o wardrobe?

Guido Fawkes and his co-conspiritors... Freedom fighters or terrorists? On Nov 5th do we celebrate the capture, torture and execution of Guy Fawkes or do we celebrate his plan to blow up the king and house of parliament? I'm not sure, but we have pretty fireworks!

I have to look and see who this Guy Fawkes is, I am sorry I am ignorant to his name, but I will go now and read up on him....I think about the people in this world, not just the ones here in the USA, the people who have died, worked themselves ill, struggled though out their lives for their "Country" all the while Mr. Fat Cat sits back and scoops it all up cause he has the power..... You Mr. Fat Cat, have no Shame! Sharen

As a devils advocate on politics and people... Is not a society defined by its politics? If not then what else defines it. Borders are set by politics, freedoms are granted by politics..etc. As such, a people cannot seperate themselves from the politics that govern them. The pride of a country is found in the systems it holds in place through their politics. To say one is proud of their country, and not in their countries leadership is a bit hypocritical. If the country does not like the decisions of its leadership, it is their civic duty to change that leadership. The American people are a great people (I even married one), but one cannot seperate the policies of politics from the society. They are one and the same.

"The pride of a country is found in the systems it holds in place through their politics" how true, unfortunately bad politics grow out of something that once was good, and once was needed. As a country grows, laws need to change, policies need to change, constitutions need to change, as we evolve as a united country, we can't grow if we are bound to laws and policies made 200 years ago. Just a note, I never stated I was proud of this country they call the United States. I am proud of the people who created this land, from their efforts of true honest work, not from the Politicians who road their carpet, who LIED and MISLEAD the people and said they wanted for the people and this land. Sharen

Excellent statement, Rawner. No matter how much we think we know, we don't know nearly as much as the people pulling the strings. And most of us only know what the media moguls want us to know, and even that is skewed by their bias. When did it become wrong to be proud of your nation? There are many here who need to get off their high horses.

No offense Jackson and truly I say this with the deepest of respect, I don't know alot of people here that are on a high horse. We all have opionions, like I told c1rcle, I feel it is one of our greatest freedoms that we still have. I admire the words that were spoken here by so many, they have zeal for life and are bound by their hearts. I get to going on a subject and at times forget my manners, so in my humble mind I do appologize if I offended anyone. I do stand by what I have said though. Those words are mine and I take responsiblilty for speaking them. That is how I feel. Sharen

evilded777 hit the nail squarely on the head. I'm sick to death of all this BS about how we're the Big Evil. If we were, you guys would all be americans. Historically, when has another supreme world power worked so hard to attain peace? Did the Romans? Did the Greeks? If we were the assholes we are painted to be by our dretractors, we'd just make a list of all the countries who have ever besmirched us and blow them back to the stone age. Do we do that? We certainly have the arsenal too. No, we fund, we facilitate. We are builders far more than destroyers. I'm not saying we've never treated others wrongly. Certainly American Indians got the shaft from us big time as well as some others. But, let's look at the big F'n picture folks. We're done a lot and I mean a freaking LOT more good than bad. As for those of you who want to slam on our president "YES THE ONE WHO DID WIN THE ELECTION" that is your freedom and priviledge. You should appreciate that right. But, why do you think you have that right? I wonder if you'd have that right if you lived in Iraq. I've got muslim friends who are great people. I don't buy for one second that the whole Sept 11 is truly about Islam. It's about a power struggle in Saudi Arabia and money, the root of all evil. And the next mother F****** who sucker punches me in the dark is getting their sorry ass kicked.

If you want to up your content game, get schooled to be a pro with Sixus1 Mentoring today!

Attached Link: http://www.sobran.com/columns/011016.shtml

The problem here (Rawnrr I love your 'advocacy :) ) is that some of us may be mistaking Patriotism and Nationalism. You can be proud of your country and still disagree with its politics. You can even feel shame for its actions and still love its people and respect its institutions. Hopefully this Joseph Sobran short essay will help clarify. Peace all, Q PS: If you're in China, happy year of the goat.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Power. Resourses. Control. The most of all of them for our selected breeding group, our elite. There is no altruism in the way any government is behaving. No noble views against war. It's just for some countries war will interrupt the flow of resources into their breeding area, for others it will expand the flow eventually. How rich can we make our own ruling elite? How secure? To hell with the poor, the sick, the needy. Wall Street Profits are more important than the hungry. This is true for every nation. Not just the U.S. We just have worse P.R. and a better 4th Estate. Millions died in Cambodia, not only from US bombs, but more from their own government's purges. No one did anything, there wasn't anything valuable. Tens, maybe hundreds of millions will die from Aids in Africa. Well, the fewer people, the easier to get their resourses. Did France help? Germany? Russia? The man in the White House say's he's going to help. Decades late. And he won't even ask for funding to get required drugs for his own elderly and Aids patients, and medical care for his own children. No more money for Aids in his own country either. Politics and propoganda by all of the bastards. I'm very proud to be an U.S. citizen. However, that pride comes from the people here who help one another, who give to the less fortunate even when they have to go without themselves. Who can discuss the great moral issues of our time without forcing their opionion on others. Who believe that any for of violence may be the last resort, and that we can always find a better way. I'm more proud of the shy woman on the street who freely gives a dollar to a homeless man than I am of all the U.S. bombs ever made. The term "People who pull the strings" refers to Puppeteers. Those who control the wooden heads on the stage of life. Maybe someday Pinnocheo will come to life, and be angry.

oh man, I said to myself I should not add any more than I have but Greybro you said "But, why do you think you have that right?" We all have rights here nobody is saying we don't but those rights that we still do have came with a very heavy price. If this war unfolds like the Persian Gulf War, some general will be showing air photos of buildings and other "military objective" being vaporized by our uncannily accurate bombs or missiles: and the war will seem sanitary and almost humane. It's not. Necessary maybe, but not humane. Not by a long shot. Sharen quixote I appreciate this essay, thank you.

Sharen, It utterly sickens me to think that many, many innocents will be collateral damage if we war on Iraq. But do you think the powers that be are of the mindset, "Hey, let's go blow some shit up and kill some kids while we're at it."? The fact is that this man is a menace to the world. I see no point whatsoever in waiting until he manages a nuke, or long range delivery system for his Chemical and Biological weapons which we all know he has. He bought the materials for them. He bought the cultures to grow the bio weapons in. He bought the tubes to make the missles. We know and they have admited to producing 25,000 barrels of said weapons. He says he's destroyed them with chemicals and has handed over like 16 barrels of the stuff, but can produce not one shred of dna evidence of having chemical deactivate the bio weapons. Now, forgive me if I don't want to take the bastards word. He's a know liar who has used bio weapons on his own citizens. This is the man you guys feel is not deserving of the wrath of our war machine. My point about our freedom is the same you're making, it does require a high price. Sometimes that price is war and the death of innocents on both sides. I hope war is averted (Byy Saddam giving a shit about his people and complying with UN requirements. I truly, truly do. But if war is neccessary, then it's neccessary and none of the liberals will ever agree with it.

If you want to up your content game, get schooled to be a pro with Sixus1 Mentoring today!

Greybro, I understand your point and your obviously you are very passionate with your thoughts, but we also have all those things, we may have lots more that we are not informed about. Mike was in Vietnam, it was horrible for him, he was in the thick of it in the DMZ, he has seen things he wished he never saw, he did things he didn't want to do, he understood why he was there, to fight for freedom. He was treated as an outlaw when he came home, as a killer. And in all essense he was, because he believed in what he was fighting for. We both feel that there is and always will be a price to pay for war. We do not know all the facts only what we are told...and to be honest with you, we do not feel we have been told everything and maybe not even the truth. I don't trust this man either, but I don't trust alot of our leaders. Do you? I will end this here, it is going nowhere, these are only Mike's and my thoughts and feelings. We are not here to convince you to believe what we feel. Just thought it was time to speak our thoughts on this matter. Sharen

I intended to stay out of this because there are very very strong opinions but I must say, as a Canadian, I am very frightened, living so close as we do to the U.S.A., that if war is declared, we will have to meekly go along in order to survive. This war, if it does come and I ernestly pray it will not, will be like no other - not even close to the Persian Gulf War. I think Nelson Mendela's speech was one of the finest I have heard in opposition to this war. It is really heartfelt to see the anti-war protests and to hear people speaking out in opposition. :( Irene

Q, or confuse Nationalism for Nationailzing. Nationalism simply put means love of country in some cases too much. Nationalizing has to do with putting the resources of a country including the lives and means of its people into the hands of the Government. What you are really talking about with the latter is National Socialism. We in America are indeed in danger of becoming a National Socialist Country if the flag no longer represents all of us, congress gives over the power to make war to any one else and people mistake love of country for blind obedience and thus willingly give up their rights for a little temporary security. The flag belongs to everyone in America not just those who would deny it to the rest of us. As such I can find nothing wrong with the picture It does not seem to advocate war only Nationalism. As long as we don't confuse love of country for the bush docterine there is nothing wrong with that. It's MY flag too, - TJ

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12418&Form.ShowMessage=1076206&Reply=1079547#8

I hope you get a chance to read the background article I posted in two posts on this thread. Interesting reading. Now I just got Vue d'Esprit in the mail. I'm out of here. Looks like the year of the goat might have a kick to it after all... YaHOOOOOO!

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

We in America are indeed in danger of becoming a National Socialist Country if the flag no longer represents all of us, congress gives over the power to make war to any one else and people mistake love of country for blind obedience and thus willingly give up their rights for a little temporary security. Amen to that ... well said

I offer a thought through an often misquoted quote: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana, The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905 We can do well to remember the atrocities of past & present despots & tyrants: the Ceasars, Saladin, King George, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao & Saddam. If you see your brother being beaten by a band of thugs do you walk on and say to yourself: "this is not my argument, I cannot get involved". In so saying, can you live with your sin of omission? Thank you Darkwispers for inspiring this dialogue through your excellent work.

Deecey, Thanks, but actually I've been brainwashed by Ben Franklin; It comes out now and again. - TJ

Nice to see you folks at Poser Pros saw this thread, and couldn't resist bashing the artist's work. This is sadly much more predictable than perfectly dressed Vickies in the Renderosity Poser Gallery... G The flag is not a perfect flag, if anyone cared to note. The artist is showing that even though the flag is not perfect, its soiled and torn, its been run through hell, I'm still proud to be American. I'll still pick it up because its MY flag, because it represents MY values. If we let the conservative agenda claim the flag as THEIR symbol and take it away from the average American, then sure Americans might be on the road to Nazi hell. I hope that's not the case. I have a picture around here somewhere of what it looked like then, with EVERY house having a Nazi flag hanging outside it. It was actually the LAW to do that, you'd go to jail if you didn't fly a flag! Well, I'm proud to be American too. I live in Germany now, because my love happens to be German, and he can't find a job like he has here so easy in America. So... easier for me to live here. Its by no means perfect here either, I often don't like the politicians here any more than I like the American ones, but there ARE some notable religious controversies that go on in the US all the time that are absent here... and that's relaxing. (I hate to invoke Godwin's law here, but since someone had to talk about National Socialism, might as well throw in my two cents.)

TJ. We are all held hostage by the Rght. Fascism is now a recognized political theory, with academic credits (the all 9 yards) to the dismay of many academics. I'm a member of a political board, and it's really crazy now. One thing is certain, a lot of people are very worried. My area of research is Cambodia. The carpet bombing that killed 700,000 civilians; the famine it caused that killed as many; the destabilizing effects it had on the whole region, providing the Khmers Rouge and Pol Pot the chance to take power and kill between 1 to 3 million more civilians; and then a decade later, when Pot had been removed, good old Ronald Reagan decided it was in the US's interests to provide this sociopath with money, arms and advisers so he could continue his civil war and kill even more people. That's what war can bring. They may not be Americans, but they are people too. "Collateral damage" ? well denial serves a purpose, I guess.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

How soon we forget that horrible day. eh? There is one reason, and one reason only, we're surrounding Iraq.

Attached Link: http://www.raptureme.com

I live in Bush Central. It might interest some here on a major influence, rarely noted in the press, on the sense of urgency expressed by Bush and his crow on why a war in the Middle East is essential ... and beneficial. www.raptureme.com www.leftbehind.com PS: 1. I'm a combat vet, and have found that war is not only Hell, it sucks! But like shit, it happens. 2. The history of war shows that the results of a war have little or any relevant connection to the causes. 3. While battle is always a crapshoot, war is 52 Pickup. Let's hope and pray that cooler heads prevail.

Gordon

Larry-L, circa 1938 the Reichtag building burned down and communists were blamed. The German people followed Hitler into war because of their anger over this. circa 2001 the Twin Towers were burned down and Al-kida(sp) was blamed. The American people are following Bush into war because of their anger over this. I prefer that quote from Santayana in this way: "Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the first stage of life the mind is frivolous and easily distracted, it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence. This is the condition of children and barbarians, in which instinct has learned nothing from experience." - George Santayana So have we learned anything ? - TJ

I hope so this is great...thanks TJ...Sharen :-)

The elite Left, who presume the moral highground and love lofty quotes. The Thought Police. Me, I'm only a classic liberal who still thinks for herself.

quixote wrote: "During the last Gulf war, the "highway of death" incident happened after the hostilities had officially stopped. No war crimes trial. The guy who ordered this illigal massacre was promoted." Totally wrong (unsurprisingly). The Iraqi force (that'd be the murderers, the rapists, the looters, the torturers...) fleeing Kuwait were destroyed on the 'highway of death' while hostilities were still very much 'officially' engaged. The force was destroyed because it was a viable fighting force that could be a later threat (much the same reason the Republican Guard was deliberately targetted). Even with the carnage resulting from the bombing, most of the personel in the column escaped on foot. As soon as the possibility of any viable Iraqi counter attack was eliminated (by destroying viable armies in Kuwait and Southern Iraq), the US led coalition stopped its advance and sought talks with the Iraqis. The coalition stuck to its limited UN mandate (too limited in my opinion). The so called 'anti-war' movement were very quiet when Iraq invaded Kuwait and carried out attrocities during the occupation. The shouting only started when it became clear that the US wasn't going to stand for it. The 'anti-war' movement isn't anti-war, it's anti-US. A few of these people might be brave enough to speak out if they didn't enjoy the cosy benefit of living free in a Western democracy, but most of them are hypocritical, posturing, moral cowards. "Nelson Mandela helped a lot today." Yeah, I thought so. He exposed himself as the totally overated lightweight he is with his hysterical blathering. I'm sure Colin Powell was impressed by the bit about the US undermining the UN because the Secretary General is "a black man". That was hilarious.

bikermouse wrote: "circa 1938 the Reichtag building burned down and communists were blamed. The German people followed Hitler into war because of their anger over this." The Reichstag was burnt down in 1933. In elections held the same week, the vote for the Nazis went from 33% to 44% - still a minority (despite extensive Nazi bullying and manipulation). The Reichstag event was only one of many which Hitler used to win over the Germans. "circa 2001 the Twin Towers were burned down and Al-kida(sp) was blamed. The American people are following Bush into war because of their anger over this." al-Qaeda have admitted it. They fucking did it. If the American people have woken up to the fact that there really are people trying to destroy them, it isn't surprising they might follow their elected leadership into war. "So have we learned anything ?" You haven't learnt very much at all, as your banal and offensive comparison shows.

I think we all agree that we all disagree on one point or another. No one likes "blind patriotism". I respect any opinion as long as it is an educated one. Patriotism is not a thing of arrogance but a belief in the common ideals of a nation. I can only say I am a patriot because I know that these actions and the way they are being conducted are viewed by the american majority as being wrong. Any nation on this planet is great, it is up to the leaders to keep it that way. I am saddened that once again the United States of America has been betrayed by it's own goverment. Mark

...and TJ, let's not forget the Japanese who were blamed for bombing Pearl Harbor and the American people followed Roosevelt into war because of their anger over that.

No, humanity has not learned anything, nor will it, because it is evil in nature, history is clear on that. Savages come and savages go and the only chance for Freedom & Liberty to exist in this world, unfortunately, comes at the high cost of standing up to them when they do come. The only alternative is slavery.

infowars.com

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/hwy_death.html http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/hwy_death.html http://www.polyconomics.com/sy.html ....

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Wow, quixote, that stuff is writing. It must be true. It can't be hysterical anti American propaganda which the gullible will repeat as fact. "...were withdrawing from Kuwait on February 26th and 27th 1991 in compliance with UN resolutions." LOL, you have to laugh. Let's face it. It wasn't Iraq that invaded Kuwait, it was filthy yankees dressed as Iraqis and Palestinian civilians. The whole thing was a evil conspiracy because it's all about oil. I'm going to hug a tree now!

LoL

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

OT anyone?

This is a very serious subject! It is about oil, George Bush is the anti-christ and he is working for the aliens who seeded the earth with humans. They crossed their dna with primates millions of years ago and produced the human race!!! They want this planet for themselves, and by enlisting the anti-christ they have the power to do it. They can't live in our atmosphere, but they can live in the atmosphere that big business and the industries are creating. Without oil we can pollute as efficiently, that is why GW needs more!!! The planet was ready the first time they past by in the tail of the comet, I don't know why those guys castrated themselves, aliens are gay(no gender, just gay). You all must be careful, don't say to much, they are listening. They are always listening...SSHHH! I think I hear one, no wait, that's my mom...No mom I am not masterbating in here. Ok, gotta go, I miss my tree...EEELLLMMMERRRRR!

Gee Spit you're a girl? well then have a rose(actually it's Robin Wood's rose in freestuff.)not a very good render but I didn't have much time. It is a poser 4 render though. PJF, Does the fact that it was 1933 make it any less true? "Reichstag fire, the burning of the German parliament building in Berlin on Feb. 27, 1933, soon after Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany; helped turn public opinion against opponents of the Nazi party, especially Communists; immediately followed by a decree suspending all constitutional rights and transferring power of parliament to Nazi cabinet; blame for fire placed on an alleged Dutch Communist, Marinus van der Lubbe, who was convicted; fire widely believed to have been planned by the Nazi party for its own benefit." --------------------------------------------------------- From Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia 1999 The Learning Company, Inc. Yes, I heard Someone say that "al-Qaeda" admitted it, but nothing documentable - I also heard someone say our own government did it also not documentable . . . and if al-Quida did do it why are we going after saddam insane to seek vengance for that act? and after he's gone who are we gonna blame for 911 next ? How many years of war are you willing to tolerate ? Are you actually gonna go to the front lines and fight or are you merely gonna send other peoples childrren off to war ? The point is that there are those who blindly follow without question - The analogy stands: W is acting like a dictator !!! as to who's arguments are banal and offensive . . . we have been putting up with childish crap from the reactionaries for too long. It's time for that to change. - TJ

oops forgot the rose- sorry!

just some food for thought, and to remember to question everything - that is our freedom: "Naturally the common people don't want war, but after all it is the leaders who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country." Hermann Goering, Nazi Germany, 1939

Sharen: no offense taken. The "high horse" comment wasn't aimed at you, it was for the people mentioned by Spit in post #56 above.

Attached Link: http://www.leftbehind.com

It's not about oil, imperialism, personal payback, hegemonism, or patriotism:

Gordon

"just some food for thought, and to remember to question everything - that is our freedom:" Very true. But I'll add to that that one must also question one's self. Never be satisfied with listening only to pundits who agree with you. "Gee Spit you're a girl? well then have a rose" Trivialize those who disagree with you in order to shut them up. It is such a glaring weakness that it's difficult to take you seriously.

"one must also question one's self" Very true. I'm off this thread. darkwhispers: if I helped derail your thread, please accept my apology. Cheers everybody. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

If you had access to the information Bush and company has, you probably wouldn't sleep much. Even Colin Powell looked like he'd aged in the last 6 months! I'm not sure why all the judgements here are being made without all the facts (the disclosure of which would cost lives) but you're entitled to your opinion...and the right to express it.

just to throw another two cents in, or maybe another perspective to think about.... It seems to me that there is no such thing as a "just" war, war is just war when it comes down to the mechanism. Justification for the horrors of any war seem all too subjective when compared to what war is from an objective, individual, ground zero, hand to hand combat reality. The reality of what war is should strike terror in our minds and hearts, that is how it should be. It should be the act of last resort. But that "last resort" is a tricky determination. To me the war has already begun, the factions who declared war on America have done so already the only question is where will this war be fought: in America, in the streets of England, Canada or any other country that does not align itself with the so called militant Islamic factions such as Al Quada? The war of the terrorists is justified by them as a sacred duty, the last resort, of necessity to them....their actions are intended to defeat through complete and absolute annihilation of the enemy of their "god". Their army of men, women and children have an absolute and sacred duty to put to death any man, woman or child of their enemy. They are, individually, god's weapon. So again, where will this war be fought? It has already been declared and in that declaration is the unity, in the current world order lies the separation. Each act of terror unites others of like belief, and that belief is that they are individually a weapon of their war....their message of unity is made by each act of terror within ordered society. They count on the lack of unity in so called "ordered" society, they count on the lack of a unified vision in a free society, they count on the restraint of peaceful citizens.....that is their foothold....our freedoms preoccupy us and distract us from their "unified" vision and message..that they will come to our neighborhood and they will destroy us and all those who do not support their own view..... The difficulty is to see that in a free society individual freedoms are limited by necessity, law and order exist to distinguish individual freedoms from chaos....in chaos fear equals power......terror is the mechanism of chaos... Should we, and each of us, want to send the message that the war will be fought at the doorstep of those who have declared war already.......I think so....what is the alternative we will wait until they invade our neighborhood...?...is that not what 9-11 signified was their "ability" to do so...?... The war has been declared, even if we would prefer peace, there are those who would use that preference as an advantage....the question that remains is where will this war be fought, not when.

Darkwhisperer must really be enjoying all these comments about his render. but then that's what the right does best - evade the issue at hand or redefine it to benefit their own self interest. This thread should have been moved to OT a long time ago. It has ceased to have anything to do with Poser - instead every right leaning fanatic on the forum has decided to make it their personal vendetta.