We are pleased to announce the grand opening of our new online store! The good folks at BBay.com have joined up with Renderosity.com, to provide their catalog of offerings here at our site. Thanks to everyone for being patient with BBay.com while they were having technical troubles, but things should be running smoothly again now! In case you aren't aware, any and all members of this site are welcome to upload items they have created, as long as they follow the rules given in the store. You will be paid approximately 50% of all sales made from your items every month. Given enough hard work, your days of being a starving artist will be over! :-)

Is this a belated April Fool's joke? The 80's are over--what happended to the notion of FreeStuff??

The beloved free stuff is still there, and will always be.

Great, now all the other starving artists will be even more starving and sleepless. Now they'll have to pay out the nose or spend trillions of hours making every single thing they need. If you can make money from your model so easily now why on earth would anyone want to put it up for free? Pretty nifty trick that Renderosity gets FIFTY percent of the take. Whether you want to admit it or not this will have a seriously detrimental effect on the freestuff area. Many people who were happily putting up goods for free will now be sorely tempted to take a fifty percent cut for their work. It is the end of the era. -We have seen the end of Kobain, we shall soon see the end of the Rebellion.

--Also posted in Forum news -- I personally see this as an unwelcome development. To me, this community was fundamentally based on the free exchange of information, ideas, and creations. It was a place for the hobbiest (read poor) and not the professional. I have noticed and continue to expect that the number and quality of items available in free stuff will dramatically decrease. (Gee isn't it interesting that few clothes are available for Vicky, but why should someone create for free what they could sell?). To me the establishment of BBay and Zygote's independents page was unwelcome because it took talented people away from the community, but I ignored it. This strikes so close to home it can no longer be ignored. My analogy for this is that I play recreational sports. There is also a semipro league (read paid)in town that plays elsewhere. Today, the semipros started playing at my park, in my league, and has and will take away some of the players I enjoyed playing with. It's no longer play, its business. I congratulate the players who have the talent to sell their services. I might even someday pay to see them play, but today, today is not a good day.

I don't think it will be the end of freestuff.. After all when Bbay first started everyone complained how all the good artists would sell their work and yeah they did but still they released a lot of freestuff too. I think it will continue to be that way. I just began selling some of my items when Bbay teamed up with renderosity. Just because I am trying to sell some things means that I will no longer provide free stuff. It just means that some things I think are actually good enough to be sold, will be.. Now I don't think a lot of my work is worth anything so you will see more freestuff from me. But I will also provide the free stuff something for everything I finish that I decide to sell. For me the decision to sell things came out of necessity. I need to make some money to provide myself the programs and things I need to continue doing props, poses, textures and more. For Omni 3D to have contests and get it's own real domain name and more. I have released a lot of my stuff for free after spending days and hours on it. And going to school to learn how to do this for a profession. I have to justify to myself that there is a reason for me doing this. (I don't mean the releasing my free stuff but spending hours on the computer doing my graphics if all i am going to be good for is flipping hamburgers at the local fastfood joint.) I think the store is going to be good for Renderosity and the artists here. I also think that you will still see a lot of free stuff. just MHO Storm

There will always be people who will share their work for free. That is their privilege. It is also their privilege if they decide they may wish to earn a few dollars for their efforts. Nobody is forced to buy. The microcomputer has been around long enough that we are swamped with companies selling commercial computer products. Yet the web is still full of free software and some of it is quite superb. On the positive side there have been many Poser freebies that while quite good fall short of perfection. If creators are given a financial incentive they may just go that extra bit that makes the difference. Personally, I see nothing wrong with commercial efforts and hope to see some interesting results from it. In fact, Renderosity may look free but somewhere along the line it is costing somebody something. I don't mind taking up the slack with the occasional purchase.

I say good show! There are some very talented people who have shared many of their creations with us. If they decide that they need to sell some of their creations so they can purchase program updates, new modeling software, pay for their websites, pay their rent and, Heaven forbid, buy food then so be it and I will support them. I have already purchased items from PhilC, Jim Burton and others that I intend to use for both commerical and non-commercial projects. And I intend to purchase more from them and from the others. Why shouldn't they benefit from their talents? And I think it is a dishonour to them to suggest that they will withdraw their free offerings in hopes of extorting payment for what was previously free. They offered us free items in the past because they wanted to. Just because they may face the inevitability of bills like the rest of us and they wish to see some reward for the hours, days or even weeks of work they may invest in a model, a character, a prop, a texture, etc does not mean they have become miserly Scrooges. Give them a break! And allow them the chance to earn some rewards, financial rewards, for their talent and for their hard work. In the meantime, I wish them luck and look forward to doing business with them. As an actor, writer and multimedia creator I have no idea where this notion that artists must be "starving artists" originated, but, I wish it would return from whence it came. As an added note, we should be grateful that such an outlet has become available from people we have come to know and trust such as the people here at Renderosity. There are very few online communities that share our luck in having reliable and trustworthy outlets such as Renderosity, Baument and Zygote to do business with. Okay, I'm done. I will tuck my soapbox back under my bed. Take care and Godspeed.

I will echo Storm's statement because I feel the same way. Selling things through BBay, and now Renderosity allowed me personally to buy some extra software and be able to have the free time to make stuff that is and will forever be free. I was selling things months ago, and Morph World never stopped pumping out the goodies. :) In fact, I have a pile of stuff now on my Hard drive that I need to get loaded on the site. So have no fear, the freestuff will never end, die, or even slow down.

Did the artists on BBay always only receive 50% of the sales on their products? I'm not familiar with on-line sales practices, but that sounds like quite a sizeable chunk to take away. No wonder the prices seem high (at least to broke artists like me), especially if the artist only gets half of what they ask for. I do think this will cut down on the amount (and particularly, the quality) of freestuff additions though; hopefully I'll be proven wrong. Traveler, PhilC, and all the others on this forum who create such wonderful things certainly deserve to be paid for their work...but if I'm going to pay $30 for some poseable lingerie, they'd better get more than 15 bucks of it. SnowS Hoping his pictures are worth 1001 words.

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

before knocking anything, ask someone who's built an online store just whats involved. here's just some of the things you would need to get started: a secure web server w/e-commerce software, a verisign key for the web server, a merchant account with a bank, a merchant account with an online credit card processing solution, backend management, people to download, test, and verify everything, people to make sure fraudulent cards aren't being used, people to do all the accounting and cutting of checks every month, people to handle all the IRS hoop-jumping to send 1099 forms to every contributor at the end of the year, etc...

I have been thinking of writing a message asking how to pay those that have posted such great stuff on this site and the other side at x-poser...because I want to use various stuff in an illustrated novel. This is a partial answer...but a good start. Thanks

Free enterprise at work, go for it! I too question the 50/50 split though & think it should be pro-rated on the quality of work (i.e. number of downloads?) or something. Don't forget, the artist has invested several thousand dollars for hardware & software and logged countless hours of time in learning how to use it. And, unless they use their "stuff" almost exclusivly for business they can't even write it off. But hey, it's up to the players here to set the terms they want, not the buyers. They either will or won't. My thanks to all those who continue to support the collective community with free stuff and information. Without that base there would be less of a market to sell within.

Bbayers got 50%, same as here. I was happy with that and still am :) Actually most brokered programs take much more then 50%. I have seen places as much as 85% being taken by the broker house. The font business is notorious for this sort of thing (Which is why I got out of it) It may seem like alot, but 50% is actually a good deal if you consider the costs that it would take to run your own store (and I have) as well as the time and effort one would be putting into it.

Sell your paintings or sculptures at a gallery and they often take 50% or more. At least the on-line stores will give your work wider exposure. And until they've accumulated enough sales they'll also have a much higher investment and risk than the individual artists. I think it's a reasonable deal for the artist overall.

Oh, and I will add that My morphs and characters will always be free, even when they number in the thousands (hehehe close to it now, it seems) Now if I could just find a freestuff friendly webhost I would pack this place full :)

Sorry, but the assurances that those who choose to sell their work will still contribute to the FreeStuff doesn't wash. Traveler is the only one I can think of out of the whole BBay group who contributes anything now--everyone else sells it, or am I leaving someone out? Correct me if I'm wrong and cite the evidence.

I just posted a texture of "Zhaan" for Vicki last night :-)

mikes, FreeStuff is still free for those who wish to contribute. I never expected anyone to do so and am grateful if they continue to do so. As for Travelr, perhaps he's a more knowlegable salesperson. If I ever need to purchase something I'll check his stuff first. Simply because he frequents the threads more, contributes more and is a more recognizable name. Remember .....?, he used to contribute much also until moveing on to a brokerage site. Now I bet that many, many people who frequent these forums don't even know his name any more. Who is hurt here?

For my person, it is ok for all who are good enough to make money with their stuff. They had spend hours and weeks to came close with a programm and also a lot of money to buy it. But i hope for all that only the really good and excellent stuff cames on the store. A little bit of "self-censorship" would be great and at this way enough stuff flowes to the freestuff-section. The question for the designers is: "Would i buy this stuff for XXX-Dollars" if the answer is yes, others will also say yes. Isn't it easy. My stuff will be in the freestuff because i can and have to learn a lot more before i have the standard to make money with it. SHARKEY

Mike: I still do, just at Morph World, becuase the site isn't on a freestuff friendly host at the moment. I update morph world more often then I make something for sale (Close to 50 megs of free downloads right now) I haven't this week becuase I have been working my tail off helping get the store open, but there will be updates again soon. As for the others, I won't speak for them, but I know many of them do contribute not only things, but also time, and whole websites to the community. Just because its not here, dosen't mean that its not out there.... Every admin, moderator, and Artist in the store have sites outside of this one, as well as all of the work that they put in here. Yesterday alone I put in almost 18 straight hours into this site, answering questions, keeping things running, moderating 4 forums, watching the galleries, and performing the usual security and clean-up duties. People have contributed more hours than I care to think about here, at outside sites of the community, and behind the scenes. Hours that, no matter how much money is made, will probably never come close to being compensated. Simply put the store will help artists to be able to continue to make things and help out, and it will keep this site up and running. :)

Hi, Surely you can always want money for what you do - But I believe in exchanging Knoledge (Even if its a Texture Map or Obj File or a complete character etc...) Now the creatores will have to deside what they'll sell and what they'll put up free of charge. ( Will it be by the hours they spend on the item or what? it will be hard for them to sell items that they worked on for weeks and put up for free somthing they works on for months). Who say How much the item costs? How can you tell How it costs? I'm from Israel and for me 30$ is about 200 NIS plus taxes (about 230NIS - I can buy food for one week with this Thats why it was always hard for me to buy things for Poser - Lets say Hypoteticly That I want to buy somthing for Poser I need to goto the bank and make a cheque of let say 30$ that will be 230NIS and then mail it to the person over the internet - I do that alot and thats why I can't do several cheques for several indeviduals - IF some of you got my point Here Then I hope I made myself clear :)). I bought things in the internet on the past and even today I do so - But hmmmm sometimes the prices are unreasnable - Only in NIS I think But unfortainly that how I can buy things on the internet. And with family and all you need to think twice and even tripple before you rush and buy stuff on the internet. I'm not saing that the creatores should not charge money for thiere creation - I'm saing lets stay a FreeStuff Page as we always were and Lets BBay.Com be an Online Store - Lets not mix the two together. It will confuse the creatores of wich they'll post free. Why BBay is geting 50% of the creation - I can post a link on the forum to my site and there I'll put the Character or anything else for sale and I'll get 100% of its costs. I saw lots of links on the forum in wich directs to a Download Site - Like the Astronaute of JeffH (Great one Jeff:)). Enough said :) Hope You get the idea (It's hard for my to type long in English since I use Hebrew languge - Forgive me for my misspelling :) Regards, Happy Free Posing The Animals Lover Arye Guetta :) My E-Mail is aria_gu@netvision.net.il

On the question of the percentage royalties I can only state from experience what other creative industries have in place since I have never sold a 3D Model as such to the public. For a computer program the split will range from 95/5 to 80/20 depending on type of program. For a hardback book, depending on rights, the split ranges from 90/10 to a 80/20. A paperback? The split is going to start at 95/5. Sell an original painting or sculpture at a gallery and the range can be from a 60/40 to a 50/50 split. Made a short film and want it distributed? You will pay at least 40% of gross minimum. All of these are, of course, in addition to the cut your agent receives - from 10-20%. Now, these figures are for the average situation with Stephen King, Jackson Pollock, George Lucas and Duke Nukem notwithstanding. So I do not see the 50/50 split stated here as beyond reason. It is part of the reality of the cost and time invested in doing business both at the creative and at the retail end. And without agents, distributors, publishers and retailers who would have time to create? You would be spending all you time trying to sell. Okay, sorry, I will put my soapbox back under the bed. I promise.

I am a professional craftsperson. The galleries I deal with work on a 50/50 or 60/40 split--its been that way for years and years. I too have a huge investment in equipment, supplies, and hours and hours of time. Still--this is reasonable. I also do very prestigious national shows, but the costs are unbelievable--and the profits are unknown before the costs are paid out. Therefore, the sure sales from a gallery with a 50/50 split are welcome--I know exactly where I stand profit wise from the get go (and sometimes my costs are more than 50% of even the best shows). As to the freestuff--I guess by now everyone should realize from the above posts that a lot of 'freestuff' is not actually listed here on Renderosity because of the problems with hosting web sites. However, just take a stroll around through all the sites (like Morph World, for instance) and you will find the same folks that are selling 'some' of their work to also have lots of downloadable things FREE. I think this will work to everyone's good. Some things I will not be able to buy immediately--but there are always alternatives--besides which, the prices for most of these are extremely reasonable when compared to other models, textures, etc.--offered elsewhere. Diane B

All you complainers should be ashamed of yourselves. You've had it too good. I WANT........I NEED....I I I Rush off to FREESTUFF get my texture,morph, model....To deprive those great modelers, morph makers, texture makers the ability to make a living from their hard work is inexcusible....H2

I'd like to throw my support to the artists who are selling and Renderosity hosting an online store. I heartily echo the supporting sentiments above and won't repeat them. I have been ever grateful for all the free stuff made available at this site. The artists who spend long hours creating quality models and textures deserve to make money on their best creations. After all, I have purchased things at Zygote and managed to do so by picking out an item every paycheck or two. Why should I not consider purchasing from the folks here. Look on the bright side. The creators hang around these forums and have a direct pipeline to the kind of things we want. Furthermore, I think their prices are very reasonable. I say bully for you! Will there be a request page?

I think it is fine and just want to be able to find some that were at BBay but not here. Mike .. You want peole that contributed? Davo contributed the iron giant, one of the creepy crawlies, a great helmet or two. GeorgeD has contributed shoulder pads, textures for people, rhinos, skeletons etc. Codeman contributed glasses, splurts and other things. PhilC was one of the primary character and dress creators in the start. His stuff is all over the place in Freestuff. That is just a short list off the top of my head. All of them contribute greatly, both in information and things. I admit I have tons of stuff from freestuff. I also respect the fact that they work hard and deserve something. I would rather they gave some and operated a store than hoarded everything. They could easily do that and say Forget you you ungreatful twerps or such. To think that since you deserve freestuff as an inalienable right is ludicrous. And this wasnt drirected to Mike though I did say you. Just you as in the complainers. Anyway .. my two cents

Hey Mikes, I model as a past time and have been listed with BBay for three months now. I haven't posted anything to BBay this month or made the transfere to the rederosity online store, on the other hand I,ve uploaded 6 models to the renderosity freestuff pages during that time. Actually if you were to count them up I believe I have more items posted in the free stuff than I have for sale. on the 50% thing, The overhead on running a sales site is terrible, if you were to do it you would spend as much or more than what you pay to a brokered site...:)

Why is everyone panicking? There have been 3D brokers (Zygote does it, as well as B-Bay) and it's been around for quite some time now here and there (I think 3D Cafe does it, too, if I'm not mistaken), yet no one seem to be bothered by it until now. If something is good enough to sell, I say to the artist, go for it. The Free Stuff will still be there. I guess it's just human nature to always expect the negative. I'm not worrying about it. I think it's great. I'm on my way over to look at it now. Melanie

Oh my, there have been some very good points made here, I love it. I am a former bbay seller and I can promise you that I will always contribute something to the free-stuff section, and not something crappy either. The creatures that I sell is original stuff (except that darned Traveler beat me to the punch with his tentatacle pack :-), anyway, if it's original and hard to find, I'll sell it. If it's a request off the forum, and I feel I can make a quality model of it, I'll stick it in free stuff. JARM asked for a long time for the Iron Giant, I made it and gave it away, free, I gave away an awesome tentacle helmet, another simple helmet, one of my creatures, a...uh...tampon...okay, that didn't make it to the free stuff, but I gave it away to anyone who asked, some stuff at renderotica I can't mention here and some others. Don't worry, the free stuff will keep comming. Somebody mentioned a request section. I'd love that!! I've done requests before. And don't forget the Rhino forum, people there are dying for challenges, you can get some quality props built there....for free. I spend all...I repeat...all my time making stuff. I don't post to the galleries, I create props and creatures for people to use, some of it isn't free, some is. You can also bet the Online store will evolve into something bigger, better and more tailored for everybody, including former bbay seller and new sellers. I wish it luck and feel it will be a good and successful thing for "EVERYBODY". Just look at this site, look how far it's come, it accomodates just about everybody. It has a great track record for only getting better IMVHO. Thanks, Davo

There will be a Store related forum for requests, news, discussion, etc. -Trav

Good good good. I just can't get enough requests, (well, ones I can do anyway)...:-) Thanks for all the hard work Trav, I really appreciate it, and my ornithopter model will be comming soon (I hope), the samlon, corn and jello are creeping up on me now. Davo

I just don't understand people thinking we have a right to freestuff, or that artists have any kind of obligation to put up stuff for free. Personally I'm planning to continue posting textures for free, and as I learn to model props, I'll put those up for free too. I DO feel that I owe this community that because when I first got poser I downloaded about a gig of free stuff, everything from props to morphs to poses--everything, essentially, that I didn't know how to make for myself. As I've progressed I use less and less free stuff--cool textures, yes, definitely clothing props if they suit my needs, and, always, morphs, particularly from trav's site. But I can make my own poses now, I'm learning how to make textures, and hopefully soon I'll be making my own props. Once I get to the point that I make the majority of my own stuff, I'll probably start wanting to sell some of it....not all of it. I think that should be the goal of any artist: to sell our work, at least to get so our artistic pursuits aren't a huge drain on whatever our day job brings in. I think it's great to have a community where we can say "hey everyone, how about some clothes for vicky" and know that all the experts are hitting the modelling apps as soon as the request goes out. But I would no more insist that they do that for free than that they would mow my lawn for free! I've been known to shovel snow or mow lawns free of charge for neighbors who needed a hand, but that doesn't mean I can't open a landscaping business. Life ain't cheap. I say a big thank you every day for this community and all the neat info and loot I find here...and now I also say a big BRAVO to anyone who's reached the point of being able to be paid for their work. It's the greatest feeling in the world (I know because I finally sold some writing this year!) and I congratulate you. Mary

Honestly, I thought bbay.com was a good idea. It let artists profit from their work, while leaving the community spirit intact here. In fact I'd always assumed that bbay.com was running on EdgeNet servers (the ever-present bbay.com ad on the front page seemed telling), and so EdgeNet could begin to recoup their costs in running this site. This seemed a wise arrangement. Placing the commercial store smack dab in the middle of the community site seems unwise, there is an inherent conflict of goals. When you go to a free rock concert, the bands are not selling their CDs up on stage. The CDs are sold in booths along the side and in back, slightly outside of the spotlight on the performance. The band wants to profit from their work, but featuring the music sales so prominently would make a sham of the performance. I'm afraid this is what will happen here. The attitude of the place may shift relatively quickly from being a community based around an idea to being merely a facade to feed the commercial enterprise. I have no problem with artists selling their stuff, and I purchase quite a few things in this way. I have no problem with those sales being handled by EdgeNet, on the same machines serving up renderosity. I really don't care. I just think the commercial site should keep its identity distinct from the community site, not plop itself down in the middle as has been done today.

i'm lucky to see OnlineStore opend! But, where is Mobius stuff, he was so eagerly waiting to sell his new Alora, and i'm eagerly waiting to get hold of her?

Yes!! thats was what I wanted to say Poser is a hobby for me and There is a limit on how much I can spend on stuff to be used with in it. I wish best of luck to people that want to sell theire stuff ( I said it before and I'm 100% on selling stuff - the only thing I was concerned was on How the prices would be and what would be free or what would be 4 sale..etc...) I love to share stuff - It's great and gives me plesure :) I know that I would not be on the ones that sells thiere stuff - Hobby should be cheap to be able to continue with it :) I love using Poser and I want everybody that works with poser wiull love to use it too.... I look on this forum as my Poser classroom I learn alot here and at this point I want to thank every one on poser - We need to do the same as poser Guiled to do a tribute to each and everyone that shares tuff on the net.... That will make poser continued and no one will feel that he can't progress with Poser Art Arits should sell thiere stuff - only if they feel they need to sell it and if they want to sell it why not getting the 100% price of it :) I'll be a 100% free poser giver for everyone - I love to give that makes me feel great and with god help I can promise that I'll give away all my stuff for free (when I have them for give away) :) Regards, Happy sharing (selling) poser :) the Animals Lover Arye Guetta p.s. Forgive my misspelling :)

I think there's a fine line between what should be free and what should be charged for. Being in the software trade connected with PDAs the authors of that software are aware what is considered freeware and what is considered sharware quality. The artists have to make up their own mind as to what they charge. I cannot create models and textures, I am not that skilled, so I rely on other people's stuff to create my artwork (which is just my hobby). I am more than prepared to purchase these items, so long as the price is reseanoble, I say good luck. But that fine line must be observed, Quality is what will make you money in this kind of game, not quantity.

I say an individual is endowed with the inalienable right to be compensated for his hard work.

OK...I've been reading and reading these threads and debating with myself at the same time! No matter how hard I try I can't be persuaded that this will work for the best! No matter how hard I try I can't stop feeling taken advantage of under the new circumstances, especially when I dedicate almost 99% of my free time to create, upload,update & maintain FairyWoods, reply to messages, keep in touch with latest news and offer more than 350MB of downloads - all absolutely FREE! All those sacrificies seemed worthwhile for the spirit of sharing in our community and the simple thanks we were getting back sometimes, was compensation enough! But NOT anymore! Allerleiraugh is absolutely right! Why on earth should I give away the stuff I make and dedicate so many hours to, if I have to buy others' creations most of the time from now on? I'm not rich..so obviously I should be forced to sell in order to get some money and keep feeding my hobby same as I was doing so far from funstuff! I don't wish to be the laywer of the devil but I've seen stuff on the new store that I can't believe creators have decided as worthwhile to be sold!!!! So far I had never visited ALL of available items for sale, since same as aryeguetta the greek drachma is not at its best equivalent to US$...but now that I've seen most that's been available...I feel bitter, taken advantage of, a real fool! I don't feel anymore that it's worthwhile to steal time from my kids and family, sleep on keyboard way too often lately...JUST to keep this community happy and people's eyes that have started glowing green in the thought of easy profit! So I MUST hold back for a while till I see where all this is leading to....I won't relay on the ONE and ONLY shining example of TRAVELER who's been always my top contributor! Rules always have shiny exceptions! Others have proven in this forum that they don't share HIS ethic code of freebies and sales stuff side by side! As a final move of protest I'll shut down FairyWoods' download sections tonight as soon as I get home! My last hope is that TIME will prove I'm wrong though I seriously doubt it...till then, I can't help feeling that our beloved home has been invaded by opportunism!:-(((

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

The thing is, I'm not willing to spend a bunch of money on models right now even though I'm pretty serious about poser--Vicky and her loot are the only models I've bought. My list of stuff to buy starts with Vue and goes right up to a second computer so my spouse and I don't kill each other trying to share time on this one. So I look at clothing packs on the store and go "sigh..." and realize I don't get to have them, not right now anyway. So it's not that I wouldn't like to have these things for free...'course I would! And I'm NOT a student, I have a good income, so 25 bucks for a model isn't going to kill me....but I need to spend that $25 bucks on "ray dream for dummies" so I make choices. I'm not saying it wouldn't be wonderful if people kept giving stuff away for free, and I think the market will eventually show that only the best stuff will sell anyway...I just don't think we have a right to expect people to give their work away. As for bbay people buying each others' stuff, I would think swapping would be acceptable, unless you have to sign a contract that you'll only distribute via bbay. I think the ones who'll really be affected are those of us who aren't up to that level yet (like myself). And Allie, cheer up, this weekend I'll be working on a nice DARK texture set for Vicky, and it will be totally free. And since I finally bit the bullet and got ray dream, I'm working on a free prop...delenn's headbone... Mary

Well, I've read pros and cons and stand by my post that the 50/50 is fine, that selling one's work is okay, but--as I said, buying a lot of them won't be in my future either as it hasn't been in my past. I'm totally inept in model making so will use what's available free or buy occasionally, can do some textures -so those are my 'alternatives' as I stated. However, I totally understand the need to bring in more revenue for the site as I use its 'free' services daily. Its a difficult decision all round and I hope some who DO provide free things won't feel 'put upon'--as I said, there are lots of free things around and I would expect only outstanding and unique items to be offered for sale. This is the one point where I sort of differ--I don't think everyone should be able to offer their things--there should be some 'standard'--a 'jurying' process so to speak. Others will say that the market will decide. My other hope is that no one will feel they 'must' offer things--that they will do it for fun, not because they feel they owe anyone anything. I don't offer anything because I have neither the time nor the ability (nor the time to gain that ability) and use others work with great thanks. I have been assuming that they enjoy making the models or textures--not that they feel a duty to do it. I hope this remains the spirit of the site--and those that wish to sell their 'special and unique' work can do that also. Diane B

Due to public and my own personal concerns we are removing the open upload policy to the store. It will from here on in be by invitation or inquiry only. We are doing this to both protect the level of quality in the store and the members.

I think the store is a natural progression. If an artist spends hours or days creating something, why should he/she just give it away. There is NO reason. Why make someone feel bad because they want to make money out of their talents? So wipe those tears away and think about it logically. Glengarry.

I work for an internet startup. The application we built was going to be free. We would get millions of users in a few years, then sell it. That was the plan. However, in the 8 months since we started, the Internet has changed. Our investors wanted a revenue model, how we would make money. Huh? This is the Internet! Good stuff, Maynard, and free. Not any more. Renderosity has 10,000 members, and is growing, albeit slowly. Do the math. If 1% of the members buy a 10$ model, that's a hundred bucks in sales. Nobody is getting rich, here. Renderosity will need a lot more members for the Store to really fly. That said, the issue here isn't artist's rights or their cut of the take. That's an individual artist's choice, whether to sell their work or not, and none of my freekin' business as a user of this forum. If the most important thing to us, as I keep hearing, is the 'sense of community,' then the bottom line becomes keeping the site open. However, maybe that's just a pile of crap, and the real reason we all come here is because talented people give their work away for free. I've read the posts above. I see avarice, greed and jealousy, and not on the part of the sellers. No one is going to retire on sales of a model through Renderosity's store. Cripes. I can't believe the hypocritical paranoia about "not getting good stuff for free" any more, or the debate about the 'decreasing level of quality' of the free stuff. What about the "great community,' or the 'idea sharing?' Will the quality of that decrease? Not unless we let it. I think we all should be ashamed of ourselves. --ratta

TRAVELER that was the MOST wise decision renderosity stuff could come up with and the only one that wouldn't let freestuff die! Under this new policy I don't assume there will be further trouble in the co-existence of both the online store and funstuff at the same site! :o) Thank you oh thank you so much for listening to our protests and reading behind the lines! :o) This was a great relief! Now I can finally welcome the online store since it no longer jeperdices the unique spirit of sharing this community shares and feel great again! :o) renapd

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

:) You know us, we always listen and are open to hear all concerns :) -Trav

LOL Eric! Then I guess Rose was saved at the very last minute from the shipwreck! :o)

[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."

I'm all in favour of the free market and for artists to make money from their work. I also have no problem with a gallery or reseller choosing their own rates of commission (if artists don't like it, they don't have to submit). My big concern is that this place (Renderosity) is now essentially just a shop window. This forum (founded by someone else, incidentally) was designed to be, and has been, a community centre for users of Poser. This is supposed to be a place where people can freely and openly exchange ideas, techniques and, indeed, actual items. While it can be fairly said that these activities can continue, the fact that a five figure user base which has been established on the basis of them has now suddenly become a five figure customer base reeks of utterly cynical manipulation. If anyone wants to set up a store, fine. But don't do it the back of a place that is used by its members for completely incompatible reasons. Do it somewhere else! Or be prepared to get accused of being a bunch of unscrupulous, money grubbing charlatans. This has to be the best thing to happen to Poser Forum Online (Poserforum.org) in a long time.

It sounds to me like a lot of us were using this as a "store" anyway--we just didn't have to PAY for the stuff we were getting. Now we have the option to buy stuff from a select few artists, as well as continuing to enjoy--FOR FREE--the advice, tutorials, and zillion daily postings that make this site special. I just don't see what the big whup is about "going commercial" when no-one is being charged a penny for membership. Mary

OK. A few points: 1) When I had something published, I was offered a flat fee or royalties ranging between 2 and 4% based on volume (higher percentage for higher volume), a few years ago. 2) Last I heard, Zygote offers artists 35% of what their items sell for. 3) I suspect we're now more likely to see stuff in Free Stuff that is "Works in Progress" and final items, with extra morphs and bugs worked out for sale at the Renderosity store. If I were any good at modelling, that's what I'd do - release a rough version (like the unposable version of The Ultimate Dragon that was here for a while) for free, and the final version with a few extra morphs and such for sale.

Ditto ratta's comments. I personally could never set a price on Trav's contributions alone, the things I got for nothing. On the day the store opened there was plenty of free stuff upp'd. Good luck on your venture people!

I honestly don't understand why folks are so worried that we will see any major changes in the free stuff. So far, I haven't seen anything offered at the online store that wasn't available at BBay (to the best of my recollection, at least) and that didn't have a tremendous effect on free stuff. What has actually changed? The location of the front door has changed. And everyone knows the first three most important things to consider in any business are 1) location, 2) location and 3) location. Ok, the management has changed as well, but that happens almost everywhere you go at some point or other. No big deal. As for all us "poor starving artists" being charged an arm and a leg for necessities, well, I don't see it. 90% of the stuff offered in the online store section are things I would never have a use for (sorry, Davo, your creatures are awesome but I can't think of how I would ever use a single one of them in an image) and so won't cost me a penny since I don't buy things I don't need. The same goes for PhilC's corset. It's lovely, excellent work, but it's not on my list of necessities since I don't do semi-nude or erotic images (ok, I did one once, but it was an experiment in posing and texture map alteration so clothes would have defeated the purpose). I've noticed, especially lately, that there are almost always some people who are going to panic or overreact to any sort of change. It's just a fact of life. But another fact of life is that things change. Change is the only constant in life. Whether the change is for better or worse is decided by how we accept it and deal with it and whether we make it work for us or against us. Kate the observer

Those are very good points Kate, and as Traveler mentioned, there will be a request/comments section avaliable soon, which prompts me to ask.."what would you PAY for"...you need not reply, I was just curious. You are right, nobody will pay for what they do not need, as well as nobody will download from the freestuff pages what they don't need. This panic will pass, as it always does. I wasn't around at the split from that Willow persons site, but I'm sure there was a hell of a lot more panic than this...and look at this site now! WOW! Thanks for your comments, Davo

Good decision Trav. I think all in all that it will just work itself out and things will remain about the same around here mainly because of the community that has been built over the last year--not because there was a site that used this same server prior to last August or so. That site moved, took its member base, its freestuff, its administrators and set up somewhere else--like Kate says, locations move. This site was built from the wreckage that was left behind and has evolved in a different way. Vive la difference'. There's room for 2 or more different 'styles' on the net and my feeling is that if we want this to remain a 'free', open minded and vibrant community right here as its been, then we will have to accept some compromises. This particular compromise doesn't particularly bother me much--it appears to bother others more, but I think that with most things on this site, the concerns will be addressed and things will move on just fine. Obviously, just my opinion. Diane B

I'm not going to repeat the comments I've made on the thread from the front page, except to mention my "free stuff" is at: http://victorian.fortunecity.com/impressionist/1030/ because, like many others, using the current Freestuff would break the agreement on the host. The last item I added (the thigh morphs) wasn't very well recived, which has a lot to do with why I haven't added anything lately. I don't know how guys like Trav can do it, there is only so many hours in a day, I also work full time in my "real" job too!

jim, try homestead.com

Since I don't use animals in my renders I hadn't noticed the dropoff in that area. I have noticed that those items I do find useful are still plentiful and improving in quality at the same rate they were before the advent of BBay. I suspect it's all a matter of perspective based on what the individual needs happen to be. Kate

I don't know, Allie. I have about all the animals that have been made available--both freestuff, Debra's (not all of hers) and Zygote--oh, and Digital something. Almost all of the free stuff (animals) was made by Bloodsong, Anton Kiesel and Scott. Both Bloodsong's and Anton's are at either Prop Guild or Poser World not Funstuff. I think the last thing Scott did was a redo of some of Digital's stuff. The only animals available on BBay were Debra's and her other free things are still available on her site. I don't think BBay had any impact on animals at all because I feel almost certain Debra would not have offered her animals free--not in the detail she offered for sale anyhow. Scott's things were good too-I just looked at his elephant last night--not as detailed as Debra's, but it was free. The cow that was around might have been his also. As I recall, he took them down for some reason--but not in response to BBay I don't believe. Anton hasn't been around until just this past week so BBay can't have affected him and Bloodsong just hasn't done anything new except her jaguar morphs/textures (am I right, Bloodsong?) recently. I don't think BBay has anything to do with that. Truthfully, there were very few doing animals--mostly morphs and textures of available animals and these are around. If you look at the 'other' Freestuff for comparison, this one still moves along with added things weekly whereas the 'other' has very little new recently. What will happen, I don't know--but the limitation as to who will sell in the store will make it just about like BBay's, I think. As I said, I still think the store should be for unique and special models, textures, etc--ones that are worth buying. Diane B

I have posted a long (possibly overlong) thread above on the question of commission rates and why I think it might be an idea to reduce them. Here is another argument. Assume that someone in this forum makes another Victoria (only better and a new mesh and there are many here capable of that) and decides to sell it. Assume also that they are not going to fleece people for $90 plus more for hair, tex maps, morphs and clothing but are going to charge $50 for the lot, a complete package. How big is their market? For something like Victoria it might be 1000 model sales, maybe more if the price is right and the model good enough. At 50% commission that is $25,000 to BBay/Renderosity. In one of her posts above fur said " before knocking anything, ask someone who's built an online store just whats involved. Heres just some of the things you would need to get started:" and then lists a lot of things that cost money. But for the $25,000 lost to the artist in commission charges he or she could easily buy all of that and more and have a lot left over. This might be put into reducing the cost of the model to say $40, in turn increasing sales even more and leaving the artist with a nice shiny new server and a functioning online store in which they could also broker stuff. It is one of the reasons anyone involved in making really high demand models will probably not sell through the Poser Store (no offence intended to any artist selling there already). This is a major loss of a market segment and potential revenue to Renderosity/BBay before you even start. I believe the Poser Store should take a long term view on this and not use the argument of everyone else charging 50% or more commission as the reason for doing the same. Break the mould and try much lower rates, if they don't work up them. Remember this store, unlike other purely commercial operations, is growing out of a community of people with a culture of sharing and helping each other. Commerciality in their "online home" is a difficult and even resented concept for many in such a community to come to terms with. Lower rates might prove much more acceptable to all concerned and increase volumes dramatically in sales turnover and in the range of stuff being put into the store. STORM

Here is a thought for all of you... What if I charged for you to be here or the other sites charged you? Some of you forget that I and the rest of the staff are contributing to the community to offer this place and what have I or any of the others asked from any of you? Nothing. Someone want to pay the 1500 dollars a month for the server to host this place? I would be more than willing to let them, I'm not rich!! Someone want to work 17 hours a day on this forum for free? They are more than welcome too, lord knows, I and some of the others get a little tired of it. Yeah, so Renderosity makes a few bucks brokering artist's work. Where do you think that money will be going to? Back into this site and the others for you to keep coming and sharing. You worried about Freestuff decline? This might piss some of you off, but this is a community, which means also thinking about something more than yourself. The artists that dedicate their time and effort here, the admins and myself included have families to feed, schooling to pay for, god knows what... try supporting them, if not finacially, then with sincere best wishes, instead of BASHING them. Just my Honest Opinion, take it for what it is worth. Jack

As someone who visits this place at least once a day, everyday, you and the other admins have my complete respect and admiration for the sheer amount of work, dedication and professionalism you have put into making this the best 3D graphics site on the web. Maintaining and growing such a resource and paying for the bandwidth all costs and this has to be paid for. Commercialism in some form is consequently a reality if this place is to stay alive. The Poser Store is part of that reality and if Renderosity does not open one someone else will. The Store is a natural and required development and I welcome it and wish it well as yet another resource for artists being offered by this site. I would like to see the store make lots of money for all involved, artists and Renderosity because all are deserving of this. My only concern is what is the best, most viable and sustainable commercial policy for the Store. Thus my posts above on a slightly different approach to commission charges. One of the consequences of entering the commercial retailing world is competition (if your leave yourselves open to it). There are plenty business-minded people out there who will happily let you do the hard work of setting the thing up and then pounce on it and cherry pick it by offering better deals to contributors and customers. That is a reality of the commercial world. So be forearmed and forewarned, make it hard for the potential commercial competition to do this, protect you asset and your investment by making sure that your Store offers the best deals and rates possible to artists and customers. It may not be possible to lower the commission rates, but if it is I would urge you look long and hard at this issue again. In my opinion it is the one potential "Achilles heel" in the whole venture, everything else - the 15,000 members, the reputation of this site, the existing goodwill and much more are all working for you. The best of luck to you Jack, the Team and the Store. STORM

You know, I participated in this thread very early on. I posted my OPINION about a change that was occurring. I did not attack anyone personally, I did NOT call the administrators/forum moderators names or question their integrity. I was not thinking of myself (gimme, gimme, gimme), I was thinking of the COMMUNITY (interact, share, bond) and what was perhaps best for it. I ADMIRE the work you all do. I think this forum has (had?) been a model for what forums should be. As you know I inquired about the software because I think it's so great and wanted to do a different forum elsewhere. If becoming a business is what's required to keep it going then fine. But, did you ever think of asking for donations? Did you ever think of dues to belong to a club? Did you ever think of the middle ground between free stuff and a full blown business - Shareware? Hey, people offer ideas, suggestions and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Accept it in the vein in which it is given. Heck, by the looks of things you all took some of the ideas and have made modifications to the store. If you don't want to hear it then act like the moderators elsewhere and close or remove the thread.

Bam, yes, there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, my response wasn't for those that had that, but instead complained and offered nothing constructive out of it. My frustration is directed at the may-sayers that offer nothing but, "I DONT LIKE THIS". At least you and some others have written criticism of VALUE.. not just complaining. So please do not think it was directed at you. We had thought about donations and contributions early on in the game, this was tried at another place of ours and didn't justify the income vs. overhead. Some people have to be forced to pay or they wont pay at all. What we DIDN'T and still DON'T want to do is charge admission to the sites. That doesn't help everyone, it just helps the people who can afford it and that isn't what the spirit of this forum is about. I would never ask for money from anyone without being able to give them something for it. The best solution to meeting our bills and overhead, while still offering something to them would be through a store setting which by supporting the artist and helping to sell their work, we can still afford to pay our bills. I hope that helps in explaining my position some... ??? Jack

Storm, Currently, we have the best brokerage program in this area for artists wanting to sell their work. Due to the Visa/MasterCard announcement in late April, announcing that there would be fines applied starting from $1,000 to $24,000 a month could be applied to your company if you recieve more than 1% in charge backs from your Internet Merchant Account. This announcement had been in answer to the growing problem of charges backs on credit cards that the Adult Industry had been piling up, unfortunately, their rules now apply to everyone, not just the Adult Porno sites. Finacially, this is the best deal we can offer and still cover the costs of transactions, if we find something better in the future, this may change for the artists, however, I don't really see the greed of the Credit Card companies ever disappearing... Jack

Oh...and one other thing for the record here... Just because the artist sells here, doesn't mean they can't sell somewhere else too... so if they can get a better split (which I doubt or would like to know about so I can find out what Merchant company charges less), I say put the products there also!! The main idea is to help them make some sort of return on all of their hard work and get their product out there to the public. I see them being able to make more money if they have more than one place carrying it, different customers in different areas! Jack

fur- Thanks, I never checked homestead, the stuff is in Freestuff as of this morning!

Now that is unusual: you don't require exclusivity from the artists? That is quite enlightened.

Oh heck NO, we want the artists to make income where-ever possible!! We want to help them in their endeavors, not hinder them! Jack

Thank you for explaining Jack, hopefully it will help to alleviate any worries and build confidence in the venture. STORM

No Problem, that's what I am here for :o) Jack

I thought you were here as a target for the slings and arrows around here. I'm sure I read it in the terms of service somewhere... Let me find it... I know its here somewhere...

you think it would/does some days.... Jack

Please count Darth_Logice amongst the people who are happy to see the marriage of BBay and Renderosity. I think it's great having as much as possible under one roof, and I think everyone deserves compensation. If I download fifteen hundred morphs from traveller for free but pay 25 dollars for his fashion packs, I consider that money going to his collective endeavors, not so much the one item, you know? Some days I am still amazed I get to hang out here for free. This place could easily be a subscription site. -Darth_Logice

Jack and Company are charged for the following: 1) Bandwidth. 2) Hard drive Storage. 3) A flat fee for each transaction. 4) A percentage of each transaction. 5) Each and every chargeback - not just the amount of the transaction, but an additional $10 - $25 above the transaction. I've had to deal with credit card processing places before. They suck. I wish they merely nickel and dimed you to death. In traditional mediums, the artist has to pay for the paint, canvas, and frame for each piece. For digital media, once the artist pays for the software, they're done. How many people here have bought software just for making money on models? Very few. Most people here are hobbyists that already have the software or use the software professionally for other projects. Jack and Company are the ones taking all the financial risks while the artists are free to go and have their stuff sold at multiple sites. Once this really gets going, they may be able to raise the commissions.