Well, I do like women. I like real women because they have personality. I like women with a nose that has personality and women with small lips, round lips, thin lips whatever... When I look through our galleries here and through the freestuff and marketplace, there is but one kind of women to be found there: Women with itsy-bitsy small noses, almost nonexistant nostrils and such a delightful (uarghh...) small pointed tip. But worse yet: The lips.. oh god... those lips. Those poor women used to have lips, but someone with a huge stone must have smashed her poor face in multiple times, reforming her lips to look like a flattened tractor-tire placed where the lips are. And all this is then called names like "delightful denise" or "beautiful beatrice". As an alternative we get adolescent girls looking around 13 to 14 years old, called fairies... Well, am I the only one who likes women with the faces that nature gave them? Why must every face look like Dolly Buster or Linda Evans? Why must lips be blown up until the make up half the face? Isn't there a natural character-pack for Vicky? Joerg

Well Joerg, the V3 lips are much more natural in my opinion, than the lips of V2. I have to agree that so many of Poser characters have "collagen injected" looking lips, I noticed that quite some time ago. I always tried my best to get those lips looking more natural in V2, but it was very difficult. Not so difficult with V3 though.

I agree with all this. This may be a big reason I am always re-creating Sarah Michelle Gellar/Buffy on new models as they come out. She's got a bizarre nose, fairly thin lips and canted eyes...so very different from most of the characters you see these days around here. (cough which there is unfortunately no way I can distribute cough) I must add that I'm tired of a lot of trends in the community, particularly the whole cyber-goth-gigering of everything these days. DAZ store looks more like RDNA lately. I miss useful everyday clothes and new exciting hair. I miss textures that aren't loaded with glitter and ivy. I miss the America of Norman Rockwell. In most arenas, trends fade off. I am kind of worried that Poser trends are more durable and we will soon move into naked V3 on a haunted fairy spaceship with sword, helmet, and Angelina Jolie face obscured by glittery spiderweb texture. -WTB

V3 does have such fantastic morphes! I love making new faces for her. Here's a little image (part of a larger one) with in my opinion, normal features and also dressed in normal clothes. :-)

My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice!

She's amazing! Is she for sale? -WTB

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=334689&Start=91&Sectionid=0&Form.Search=character&Fo

OK, she is extreme, but I really like characters like her much more than all those "fashion-models" Joerg

LOL @ WTB, no she has a Daz texture and Daz morphes. :-)

My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice!

Got a Pose file? :D

Rocket, she's beautiful!

and, that is precisely what is missing from so many of the temple vicki's in the gallery. they all have a pouting expression....one day, i went through the gallery, and, regardless of the shape of the lips, nine out of ten, had the same "pouting" expression. women can, and, often do, smile....and, if you put one in very expensive clothing, in a very expensive temple....hey....she should not have her mouth turned down. shit...if she's unhappy, or pensive, or whatever is ailing her on that moonlit night on that balcony...well, she should either shack up with the pool boy...or, if she is virtuous....go into her mega kitchen and do a search for "chocolate".

For a bit of self-promotion, I guide you to: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=270965&Start=1&Artist=lhiannan&ByArtist=Yes

naked V3 on a haunted fairy spaceship with sword, helmet, and Angelina Jolie face obscured by glittery spiderweb texture. Hmmm. thats an idea.. !!!! :-p Ducks out.. as the angry descends.. yellings ITS A JOOOOKE......

@ AKA1 Die, Heretic!

hand over face what's wrong with little noses exactly? You've got a point about the lips though, I thought those tavern maids were meant to be able to balance tankards of beer/ale/mead on other sticky out bits of their anatomy. Shanna:-)

I have no problem with small noses - but I dislike these noses that are unnaturally small and look like some doctor dug really deep into the skull to get the nose that small. Most of these models look like this perverted beauty-idea brought to us by all those "Hollywood-Beauties": Get your nose-job with 17 - get your lips pumped up with 19 - get the rest of your nose removed at 21... In the end the models start looking as unnatural as Michael Jackson or as ugly as Pamela Anderson. Joerg

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/freestuff.ez?Form.Contrib=Lucy%5FFur&Topsectionid=0

Here is Luci - she neither has bee-stung lips nor the minimalist pixie nose - and she's in my freestuff

That's part of the reason why I love the Roxanne character pack so much. There are a lot of faces in there for Vicki -- some old, some young, different ethnicities, bony, plump, what have you. Some of them look beautiful to me, but it's with a very un-"Vicki" beauty. More like a real woman instead of a doll.

Roxanne... yes, that's an idea. Roxanne is by the same author than Boris for Mike?

.

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?Who=capsces

The author is the talented capsces Here's the link:

Here's another if it ever makes it to the marketplace... Dave

All the micro-nose fanciers are gonna hang me for this, but everytime I see a nearly-no-nose Vicki, I am sharply reminded of some Persian cats I've seen recently. And if you're squeamish, this would be a really good time to stop reading this post..... Due to irresponsible breeders trying for the most extreme squashed face possible, these poor helpless little creatures had such miniscule nasal passages that they had to breathe through their mouths. And as if that wasn't awful enough, mucus had nowhere else to drain from either....... And now, when I see one of those plastic surgery victims (Poser Gallery or Real World) all I can think of is those poor cats! (Not, I think, what the artists had in mind ;)

Dang. I thought this was going to be about Michael Jackson.

"I miss the America of Norman Rockwell." - William Eeeek! Are you serious? :/ LOL I've seen the opposite of what you're talking about. Many DAZ Original products seem to be of the more general type of attire (V3 Bikini, Sports Pack, etc). Many of the brokered products have vanguard themes, but this might be the styles of this individual designers. Some of the stuff at RDNA has had a very normal look to it (aka the Beach Baby stuff). However, Traveler, Xurge and others have their own specific style of design and I think that's ok. I tend to go in a fantasy direction with my products and what I design. But that's what I'm confortable with. Personally I find it boring to design normal clothing. There's definately a need for it - no argument there, but not everyone wants to make it. Steve at Poserworld has tons of "normal" clothing as well as historical outfits. They are all quite good.

.

.

"...Dolly Buster or Linda Evans..." LOL Well, I haven't seen Linda in a while, I never really looked at Dolly's nose and her lips are usually, shall we say, some what obscured. I guess everyone's name will pop up in the Poser forum eventually.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

.

Poppi, she's not pouting. She's looking "dramatic". #17? Those look like real lips... not. More like a vagina that's been moved to the head, which probably says a lot right there.

::LOL:: They're called labial lips. Check out Germaine Greer's writing. Of 30 years ago.

Not a Greer fan and before my time. :)

re: Not a Greer fan and before my time. :) Not really ::LOL:: She seems spot on with this thread ::LOL::

:) I met quite a few women in Kenya and Nigeria who had faces very similar to that Capsces morph, which is one of the reasons why I like it so much. I think she's lovely. Can't say I've ever met any woman who looks like most of the Vickis in the gallery.

This whole thread is about personal taste. This nonsense is typical arrogance - "I have much better taste than you and the lousy images in the gallery are sooooo common and prinitive " - and such crap just irritates me. If you don't like the faces or the poses or whatever that other people do, do something better or look elsewhere. Don't expect others to bow to your opinions on good/bad taste. Whether or not the Vickis in the gallery look like real women is TOTALLY uninteresting besides - who the hell makes the rules? Must all characters in Poser look like real people? No creativity, no imagination, no messing about allowed???? Jeez..... Get real, you lot. Respect other people's taste and ideals instead of forcing your own on them. :] Fish

Hey, Fish, check a mirror and then come back with the rant, okay? Or is only your personal taste supposed to rule?

Fishnose, I didn't see anyone in this thread drive to someone's house and hold a gun to their head while forcing them to make big noses and small lips on their Vickies. NO ONE is forcing anyone to do anything. The problem with the insanely small noses and blown up lips is just what you stated: No creativity, no imagination, no messing about. What is the ratio Supervickies to Vickies who look much different than the model that loads on your screen? I don't expect people to bow to what I want in Poser, if I did I would have left Renderosity long ago. What I do expect is not to see people bashed and insulted for stating a personal opinion. However, Renderosity, especially the precious little Poser forum, is becoming THE place to come and get insulted and bashed for no real reason.

Well I think most of the feeling there was the fact that the trend is in one certain direction. And reinforced by the marketplace, in a cycle that feeds on itself. Considering the amount of the Poser gallery that I view, lets just say that I've noticed the trend as well. And no, it doesn't appeal much to me either. Lyrra (oh and Fishnose, watch the language dear ... I speak British grin)

Joerg, I attempted a variety of women with Roxanne, and hope I accomplished this. She has the morphs to change most aspects of her nose, her lips and the rest of her. On post #28, I think Joey's remark concerning #17 was uncalled for and gives me a clear idea of what body part sits on his shoulders. :) Beth

lhiannan - I'm certainly not doing any bashing - I'm pointing out that others are being bashed here. The derisive attitude towards certain 'taste' is just sooooo elitist. My own personal taste has nothing to do with it - I don't have any problems with other's tastes, on the contrary - the problem is the derision inherent in many of the views posted here. If you haven't been derisive in your posts, this doesn't apply to you, of course. Lyrra - the 'trend' you speak of is a sure sign that people are getting what they want. That's what an open, unfettered marketplace is for. Regardless of the quality, tastewise, of the merchandise. :] Fish

Beth, my apologies if you feel my remarks were uncalled for, but it's kinda hard not to see it in the image. And it sure doesnt take much to know why its the way it is. And what sits on my shoulders is my neck and head and brain. Thanks for asking. Fish, go back to that mirror and then tell us about derision and bashing. We'll be waiting.

Oh Crap..you guys are upsetting me...I'm going to go get a nose job..

Perhaps you see it that way, which I'm sure says a lot about you. And, I didn't ask what sits on your shoulders as I already knew. However, I am sure you will continue to be deluded.

love the picture swamp. Is this turning into a fight? Shanna :-)

Swamp: She is gorgeous. I love that. - Barb

I think it is a great character, SWAMP. I think all the characters above have features that make each appealing and unique.

@FishNose: Well, this started out as a rant. A rant by definition goes against something. In this case my rant went against all those tiny noses and swollen lips. Well, some people certainly seem to like those swollen lips and non-existant noses - I don't. I prefer women with more natural faces. Apart from that, I think that this representation of women is somewhat degrading, as we all know, what that pouty look and those huge lips are suggesting. But it is all just a rant. I won't tell anyone what to do, I just blew some steam... Joerg P.S. And I still think that Cleopatra had a very nice nose - not a non-existant one. And she was considered one of the most beautiful women of her time.

Gosh, Beth, is that a personal attack? We all know about Renderosity's Zero Tolerance on personal attacks, so you might want to reconsider your statement. For myself, I stand on my assessment. Learn to live with it.

Joey, when you say "And it sure doesnt take much to know why its the way it is," (presumably referring to the way the lips were created in the morph), you've lost me.

The morph is that way because there are women who have faces like that. Here are pictures of two of them from Kenya. If you think there are other reasons "why its the way it is", then I don't know what they are and I'm the one who made the image, and Beth doesn't seem to know what they are and she's the one who created the morph.

Joerg asked about non-typical Vicki faces. I thought that the Roxanne set represented a great array of facial types that you very seldom see in the gallery or marketplace, so I posted an image using one and suggested Roxanne to Joerg. That's all.

Let me try again. Joerg, here's another image with a character from the Roxanne pack. Hopefully one with nothing that can be taken as a subliminal message. ;)

I created the facial pose as a representation of a type of women I have seen. Your statements lead me to believe you are attacking all women with lips such as these. Your statement from the start lead me to believe you were attacking my work and the thought process that went into it. From what I can tell, you are the one who started and continue to attack people. So, perhaps you should reconsider your statements.

Hey, I said nothing against the Roxanne-Package. On the contrary: I am working really hard and fast on the new Glacier-Mike-Outfit so I can trade it for something... My remark about those swollen lips wasn't coined at your image, but at all those no-nose-all-lips-vickies hanging around in temples, giving the camera a pouty look. I really like what I have seen from the Roxanne set. Joerg

...and speaking of big lips..have any of you tried the new hamburger MacDonalds is selling? ..it's made completely from cow lips.. they call it the MacJagger

Eeeuuuuuuuuw! And I thought cat snot was gross...bleh ;-P

The problem is (at least for me): extensively morphed bodies are so difficult to clothe. Finding things that conform as much to body type as pose - very hard.

Joey, Beth Enough with the gradeschool level namecalling alright? hands on hips Don't you make me turn the thread around! Lyrra

Now, I don't think I actually called anyone any names; but I'll refrain from any more games. :)

I'm really impressed with what I have seen of the Roxanne pack and think I'll go buy it, thanks all for the enlightenment. :) Catlin

1. Joerg - I'm not reacting specifically to your comments. I'm ranting too, lol... against any kind of taste elitist tendencies. Which I saw lots of in this thread. 2. You wrote: "Apart from that, I think that this representation of women is somewhat degrading, as we all know, what that pouty look and those huge lips are suggesting." Absolutely, it is obvious, and perfectly OK by me. I don't see how depicting a woman as sexy is degrading?? I don't get it. Is it degrading to depict a man as sexy, whatever your view of sexy men might be? Why is sexy or beautiful or stuff like that degrading to women?? On the other hand, saying that women are worth less than men (as many cultures, many individuals and even a number of religions do!!!) is degrading. But being inspired by beauty is not degrading in any way. Whatever your view of beauty or sexiness might be. Pouty lips or not. Being a guy, I find women endlessly inspiring to look at. Also to live with, be friends with, work with, be the father of (I have 2 daughters), whatever. The two things are not exclusive of each other in any way. A woman can be incredibly gorgeous and extremely intelligent and highly competent and have impeccable taste and be a perfect mother and be fantastic in bed etc etc all at the same time. She doesn't go stupid just because she looks good, neither in 3D images, photos or real life. (Lord forbid I should meet this perfect woman, it'll be same the day I die, lol) (end of rant) :] Fish

It's always amusing to read the latest installment in this soap opera. AT least Joerg was considerate enough to label his post as a rant - one person expressing their personal vexation. Why these are necessary, I don't know. They don't accomplish anything other than perhaps momentary personal relief. Certainly, any construction discussion inevitably degenerates into subtle (or not so subtle) sniping and infighting. The bottom line, that everyone will do what pleases them despite other's opinions always gets lost. The very people who champion individuality seem frustrated when a majority of individuals happen to find a common niche they're comfortable with. Yes, Poser is capable of (as Roxanne ably demonstrates) depicting a variety of facial characteristics. The fact that many people choose one particular type is simply a reflection of a standard of beauty which seems to be dominant at this particular time and place. If the majority of Poser users were in Kenya or if this were the 15th century, I imagine that standard would be different. There always seem to be two underlying feelings here. One, is the 'Throw off your artistic shackles,' cry for more imagination and variety argument. While this may be laudable, it's proponents can somehow never seem to see how those on the receiving end may perceive just a bit of condescension in the call, even if that is not the intention. Nevertheless, the response will always be 'Hey, we like what we're doing, so leave us alone.' Sadly, I see far fewer threads on 'Hey, here's how to add variety to your faces, poses, etc. than complaints. Yes, the material may be out there but rather than pointing it out or giving encouragement, it seems easier to express dismay and offended sensibility. It would be nice to think that art would be one final bastion free of what seems at times to be almost a kind of eugenics movement to clean out the 'defective' gene pool. Not in this life, I suppose. The second ides seems to be based on artistic ( philosophical?) differences on the depiction of women, a touchy subject at best. Whether it's naked Vicky in a temple, large breasts or now, pouty 'seductive' lips and upper lips as surrogates for nether lips, there is this subtext about sexuality, sexism and exploitation. My guess is that women are about as well represented among Poser users as any application, certainly, there is no lack of them here. Still, the majority of users are probably men. Whether that accounts for the popularity of Vicky vs. Mike, I don't know. I'm sure it's not the only factor. Nor, do I think it's the only factor in the popularity of nude Vicky, though it may be a major one. Now certainly, people have differing thresholds for what they consider erotic, seductive, sexist or downright pornographic. One person sees bee stung lips, another sees a vagina and all of a sudden, we're off into where someone's head is at. Am I the only one who sees all this as just a little bit silly - (no offence to those holding either view)? Whether it's different views of art and sexuality or worthless hacks and rampant adolescent hormones (and all of these have been stated or implied at various times), does it really matter? Beyond the occasional rant, is this really important to anyone's sanity or well being? If it is, I would humbly suggest turning the computer off, taking a walk or whatever it takes to get a little perspective. I know that annoyances like war, economics or anything else in the real world shouldn't intrude on the refuge Renderosity and Poser offer, but neither should what people choose to do with 50 bucks worth of polygons rise to the level (sometimes) restrained acrimony that it does with unfortunate regularity. End of my perpetual response to the perpetual controversy. Now, I will go and try my new idea (inspired here) for rotating Traveler's genital prop 90 degrees and parenting it to Vicky's face.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

If you still use Posette and the Poser guy, Duane Moody has a really good series of freestuff face morphs for both. Many different facial types, ages, characteristics, etc. A search in Freestuff under "Duane" brings them up.

Barb: Clothing morphed bodies always frustrated me too, since I don't do a lot of nude renders. I found that the Tailor works very well to alter conforming clothing, but it's not a free item and it takes a little time to get the hang of it. However, some of the body character packs come with clothing morph fittings nowadays, or have some clothes-fits available as free items (Beth has files that will fit the RDNA Separates and Anton's Olympians to the Roxanne bodies as freebies.)

lmckenzie - well said. :] Fish

SEX AND INSURANCE Sadie and Esther, two elderly widows, are sitting, people-watching, in a Catskill hotel lobby. "You know," says Sadie, "I've been reading this 'Sex and Marriage' book and all they talk about is mutual orgasm. Mutual orgasm here, mutual orgasm there, that's all they talk about. Tell me, Esther, when your husband was alive, did you two ever have mutual orgasm?" "No," says Esther, "I think we had State Farm."

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Blah blah yadda yadda yadda. Don't like it? Don't look. Or better yet, God forbid, leave some constructive criticism. That'll have more impact on what goes on than yet another rant against the evils of the nudevickiewithaswordinatemple. Just my 2cents Jon

And to those who find the anti comments so offensive, the same advice holds. Don't like it? Then please dont read it. You say that anyone who writes an untoward statement is being condescending and belittling? Head back to that mirror, take a long look, and then post again. You dont feel you need to apologize for your stance? Neither do I. So go roll your eyes and shrug your shoulders and sigh in frustration at someone else.

Let me be clear that I have no problem with people expressing their various tastes; and I apologize to anyone who may have taken my posts otherwise. I have no problem with the person who expressed dislike for my product. I simply think he could have expressed his dislike more eloquently and without false assumptions about why I created the face. Beth

Is there in truth no beauty?

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I'm all for expressing your opinion. Just be aware of the historical context.

Whether it be early man's voluptous goddess, the boyish 20's, the full-figured 40, the skinny 60's, the hard bodied 80's or the full lipped 90's some woman (or man) somewhere can say " that's not a real woman's body".

Pin-up art is about ideals, perfection, not about reality. I'm not a big fan of the full lipped look myself. But that's the standard of beauty that's popular right now.

Just another 2 cents.

Jon

yea yea I know waaaay to much time on my hands. lol