Barbie was 40 this year and has made her owners a fortune. It has been a long life of extortion and profit, extracting vast amounts of cash from generations of helpless parents who would sooner surrender to the powerful marketing campaign than face the dreadful wrath of disappointed little girls. It looks like Vicky is already her apprentice and will eventually inherit Barbies golden mantle in the world of 3D dolls. Why? Well just add it up, Vicky $99.95, 2 texmaps $24.95, Fantasy texmaps $11.95, PonyTail hair $14.95, Flip Hair $19.95 and clothing Pack 1 $34.95 = a total of $206.70. I hope I got all the figures and names right. Please correct me if any of the above are wrong. I can't help comparing and contrasting the wonderful reception all of this is getting here (not to mention the huge amount of free sales publicity for Zygote) with some of the critical threads on fellow Artists from this community selling their stuff in the Renderosity Online Store. Here we are questioning and debating the morality of commercialism and its effect on Free Stuff and this Place or even if the Store should be here at all? At the same time we happily pump out publicity for Zygote and pour money into their coffers for a model that is "apparently buggy" and seems to need a great deal of FREE correction and repair from talented members of this community before it works properly. I don't criticise Zygote, if they can make lots of cash from this community, good luck to them. But I can't help noticing that my upgrade to Poser 4 cost about the same as Vicky and her various bits and pieces. And just like Barbie, Vicky is going to need more cloths and hair and possibly a pony (with a transmapped mane and tail?) and that should bring the cost to well over $250. Oooh I nearly forgot, she is going to need a "Ken" Boyfriend, .... roll on Victor. After he arrives I wonder how many of us will be able to afford Poser 5? What I just don't understand are the completely contrasting reactions (my own included when I questioned commission levels) to the Online Store and to Victoria. Please do not get me wrong, I am not attacking Zygote. But perhaps as consumers we should look at our spending habits and what we are being charged. And like consumers of other goods elsewhere, perhaps we should use our purchasing muscle as a community to influence manufacturers and the cost of their goods. After all Zygote relies on us to survive, not the other way around. Just a few thoughts on the matter that have been bugging me lately. STORM

Although I do agree with some of what you're saying it's not all entirely true. If you do some research you will find that the poser stuff is an aside for them. From what I understand, they have a bigger market with other types of models. Like Mimic has a larger market with their other programs. Let's not start a whole thread slamming Zygote, if people didn't want to buy the models they wouldn't. I don't equate myself to a 10 year old girl begging for a Barbie, never even liked Barbies when I was a kid. This is something different for me...not just a toy to dress up. I like the idea of a store here at Renderosity, and a store at Zygote. I don't just shop at one store off the net either...I like having a choice. The free stuff will not stop and we will have plenty to buy and keep us busy. I love this forum, but sometimes it gets depressingly negative around here. If people don't like Zygote, don't shop there, and if you don't like the Renderosity store, don't shop there. Sorry to rant. Marque =)

uh... Storm... you just started a thread that will in no doubt make someone cuious enough to go buy the model. And for the record - I got it for the reduced rate when it first came out and then got the discount for the clothing. So far I have still spent more on Poser and the memory I got to run it better. And I've tried to make Barbie in Poser - I am seriously thinking it can't be done.

He he Ikyoto, very good. The question is will Zygote then pay me a sales commission for all my hard work? Seriously though please be clear on this I am not trying to be negative or attack Zygote. Sorry if it came across that way they are free to charge what they like. What I am trying to question (in my awkward way) is the response of this community as consumers to market prices; Zygote's in particular. If you examine any consumer body there are often powerful forces within that body that influence what suppliers selling to that market charge. Indeed, it is often a major topic of debate and discussion in all consumer communities and societies. What surprises me is that I cannot ever recall seeing this question raised in this community as regards Zygote's prices. either they have done market research that indicates this or (more likely) they believe that their prices will not be questioned. What I want to know is why?

http://pages.hotbot.com/arts/momodot/poser0.html

How I personally figure if something is worth the price is 1) How long would it take me to make or come close to the 3D stuff I am buying. 2) Will I use it, and if so, how much. 3) Does it have more then one use down the road. 4) Who made it/Quality level. Although most of my graphics money goes towards programs and packages to make finished 3D stuff, rather then the finished 3D stuff itself, everything I have bought from Zygote I was very happy with price wise and quality wise. (2 CD's, 5-6 figures, 2-3 props, clothing pack, etc)

I also don't buy anything without a way to get my money back. And while Zygote's stuff is very good I have yet to spend over $100 on any one mesh. That is too high for my cheap butt. (and storm - check free stuff. I put up a pair of MT's so you can rasberry folks!)

Um Ikyoto..... I CAN'T STOP WATCHING THAT ANIMATION! .......... ;) There goes the rest of my night,

Ditto! It's hypnotic, I keep wondering if it is going to fall off with the effort.

OT: "Mom! Vicky stuck her tounge out at me!" I'm glad you turned her slightly away from camera Paul. On Topic: A growing commercial market and the potential to generate some income will help to keep the more promising producers hanging around making stuff. Way too often in the past we've seen some of the best modelers and designers lose interest and just drift away after a while. (anybody seen Trimax, Zorbak, Grumpus, Nitrane or MiCoGames around?)

I totally agree Nance, it will generate what has been seriously missing in the commercial end of the Poser Model market. In a word: COMPETITION It is amazing how prices drop when there is the threat of competition. Personally I have tentative long-term ambitions to develope commercial models (I am still learning, learning, learning!) but I don't think I could ever justify charging a package price of $200+ for a single Poser figure and accessories, no matter how good. Particularly given the fact that I owe so much to this community and have learned so much from it (as have Zygote!). For a CD with 100s of megabytes of models, clothing, hair, textures etc maybe $100, maybe less. My philosphy is make it affordable to the many, sell more units, keep everyone happy and earn my living that way. BTW Traveler I want to thank you for all your wonderful work and generosity of nature, if Vicky is worth $200+ your morphs are priceless

Ikyoto...ROFLMAO what a great animation! =)

I don't have Vicky but I can say that Traveler's MTs are worth at least six times as much and he's given them away! For that matter Eve totally rocks... I can't imagine Vicky is better. Anyway, my discretionary funds cut off is about $40 personally. Thank goodness for Compose, UVmapper, Traveler Morphs, and all the other Free Stuff that make do-it-yourself Poser possible.

Who can truly say what a thing is worth? One may dispute public opinion but one cannot deny it. In the case of Victoria, the response has been such that she can truly say "You love me... you really love me..." The best business deals are those where both buyer and seller are satisified. I would take that as defacto evidence that she is priced fairly. Zygote does not rely upon us to survive- our business is a minor part of their revenue. In some ways it is just the opposite. They could walk away from us tomorrow without financial regret, choosing to deal solely with those who understand the rules of business. They are a business and subject to business economics. Zygote has publicly stated that their pricing is based upon total return, not solely profit per unit. They also stated that they would happily reduce price per model to $5 if total sales dollars were to more or less equal those of fewer sales at higher prices. So if we truly want lower prices, the solution is for all of us to buy more models, not less. It is precisely this principle in action that has caused the incredible price reduction of computers over the last 20 years. Comparing this to Barbie marketing is simply absurd. Mattel's approach was to incite the non-critical and natural greed of children using this to force the hapless parents to part with their money. Later, it was modified slightly and aimed at the collector. I can spend $100 on dinner for 2 and have an enjoyable hour and a half. Next year I will still be enjoying my affair with Victoria. Value is a relative thing. There is no paradox in the different attitudes directed towards Zygote versus the Renderosity store. Renderosity has traditionally been a source of free product only. Zygote was always understood to be a business. When Renderosity chose to add a commercial outlet people felt betrayed. I disagree with that sentiment, finding it quite illogical and a victim of misplaced emotion. Please do not be offended if I feel the same about your argument.

Vickie may cost about the same as the Poser 4 upgrade. But the true point is that you had to pay for the Poser upgrade. When Zygote upgraded Vickie, they offered it for free. While it is true that many features of the upgrade were things that we wanted Zygote never implied that they would be in their original model so the upgrade was effectively a new product. Additonally, they offered a promotional time limited discount on the initial product. I did not receive such an offer with my initial Poser purchase.

How about we get a drop of perspective on how the other half live? That way we are wiser consumers. Most professionals in this business of animation and 3d purchase their products from companies such as Id8 Media. To go to Id8 and get an idea how much we tend to pay for something, head out to: http://www.id8media.com/ Now not all products made outside Poser are ripoffs price wise. Some are, sure. There are indeed the companies that charge 1000.00 a model, they tend to have as their customer base large production render farms and effects companies in Hollywood. Then there are the independent artists who provide an awful lot of what you see in shows such as Babylon 5, Star Trek, Ally McBeal, Zena the Warrior Princess, etc. They contract out almost all graphics to small time one man or 3 man shows... where do these independent artists buy to save money? Alot in fact go to Acuris. To check out the prices for Acuris works, go to: http://www.acuris.com/product.htm These may put you into some perspective here. An eye... 249.00 :) However... out of the same company, Acuris, comes the excellent CD collection 18 Perfect People. Acuris no longer seems to sell it directly, for that go back to ID8 again. 299.00 :) We are getting close to that now, arent we, for Vicki? She has alot in common with 18 Perfect, as indeed most of Zygotes models seem to do. When I first opened up Poser 4, took a look at the models and clothes, I could have SWORN on a stack of bibles I was seeing 18 Perfect, and the other excellent product out of Acuris, Mix and Match clothing and People. Zygote's prices are industry standard thus far, for the industry of independent artists. I do not find them exhorbitant. You would not believe the cost of the hardware, software, etc of the stuff they are using out there to model in. Overhead on a shop like that is massive. They bleed money. Hell my little shop bleeds money, and I do not go in for the big names in hardware and software Zygote does, instead confining myself to the low end of high end. Competition is good. The store we are making will give Zygote a run for their money. I believe Ayesha was as good a model as any Zygote have put out. I distributed her with props, clothes, textures, morphs, poses, faces, you name it. I am now working on another update pack for Ayesha. If I had chosen to sell Ayesha to you all, I would have asked literally and truly, for 1.00. That would then of course double up to 2.00 for the store charge ;) If each here who chose to take my free Ayesha had given me 1.00 I could pay my rent this month, and get that upgrade I desperately need for Lightwave 3d too ;P Maybe I lack ambition or something here... but for me, selling someone like Ayesha once a month to supplement my income a bit and offset the costs of keeping up the low end of high end is all I am after, not getting rich off you all, or even buying myself and SGI.

Ah but the morphs are indeed "making" a character Allie :) Albeit off pre-existing geometry, but still "making".

You can sell morphs targets in a .cr2 or .pz3 format file.

Storm wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I can't help comparing and contrasting the wonderful reception all of this is getting here (not to mention the huge amount of free sales publicity for Zygote) with some of the critical threads on fellow Artists from this community selling their stuff in the Renderosity Online Store. <<<<<<<<<<< You illustrate the difference very nicely in your statement. Zygote sells its stuff in its own shop. Everyone knows that Zygote is a commercial outfit. They started that way, and continue that way. The Renderosity Online Store has set up shop in what was otherwise a user community, and has essentially turned that community into a promotion for the shop. I really don't think many people object to Poser users selling their creations. I think you'll find that the root cause of the strife is that they are selling them smack in the middle of this user community! I don't remember seeing this level of controversy when artists started selling stuff away from this place. Members of this community can take or leave Zygote's stuff as they see fit. Many of them obviously don't even know who Zygote are! What you refer to wrongly as 'free sales promotion' is in reality 'word of mouth'. People here can slag off Zygote's stuff as much as they can praise it. It's the best and most honest type of 'promotion' a company can hope to get. There is a fundamental difference in the way the Renderosity Online Store is set up, because it is automatically 'advertised' due to being placed in the middle of a useful and popular community. But the community is made useful and popular by everybody who contributes to it for free, not by dint of having a shop in it. This means that every member of this community ends up promoting the store (for free) every time they post a tip or put something in the freestuff. Yet the profits of the store are divided between only the artists and the storeowners. It doesn't surprise me at all that some people see a clash of interests. But, maybe it's a good thing that people who come here thinking they are part of a user community begin to realise that they are in fact visiting what has now become a business website...

WOW ! EXACTLY ! I completely agree with PJF : ---------------<->--------------------------------- But, maybe it's a good thing that people who come here thinking they are part of a user community begin to realise that they are in fact visiting what has now become a business website... ----------------------------------------------------- I loved this site, because it was kind of community. It was free and helpful. But what it looks like, it is turning into the NEXT on-line store, the NEXT commercial site. . . . And that is a pitty (at least for me) But who cares anyway ??? If someone is willing to buy, why not selling to him ? . . . . . I am so sorryo for losing that community spirit that this site once had . . . .

The fact you are here debating it is pointing out that it still is a community. If it were stricktly commercial you wouldn't have the option. And in case you don't realize it, this site is a HUGE expence. It takes THOUSANDS of dollars a month to keep it up and the staff here has tow options - foot the bill themselves or find a way to pull in money to support it. So either they generate some income from it or start cutting things out and go broke trying to keep up with the bandwidth. If you have options that will help pay for it, start giving some constructive options.

Gosh, I've been on this site since the beginning and I don't find any loss of community or helpfulness at all. In fact, just this week, I've gotten help immediately when I asked for it--and also gave it when asked. I see new things posted in Freestuff, give and take in the form of questions, opinions, etc. in the forums, immediate and knowledgable help for newbies, and I quite honestly don't even notice the store logo. I'll check in there occasionally if I need something I can't find in freestuff or elsewhere on the net--and also to see what special things are brewing, but I sure don't feel as though this approaches anything like a commercial site. I see no loss of community spirit whatsoever. I also recognize that someone has to pay the bills and however that can be accomplished without coercing members in any way seems reasonable to me. The staff here could not be any more approachable and they respond almost immediately to any crisis, suggestion, etc. What more do you want from a site like this? Diane B

Well the only thing left I have to give is blood, so anyone that wants some get in line. -The weary traveler

Perhaps it could be the hidden agenda of these people? Maybe you all better send notes of apology and affirmation to Jack and Edarsenal right away? Letters of thanks and encouragement. Letters saying how much you appreciate them and their efforts for you, before the idea of "I am just so tired it would be easier to shut it all down than take this" enters their heads. And the heads of all the working, creating staff who gives you the tit you want to suck dry. I myself am a simpler person of course, than to shut down. Despite various tempests in teapots over the years, I never shut down Cairo. (Though it is to be added it has now been shut down as of last night to be transferred to a new site for any seeking it.) Even when there were cliques of haters around wrecking things for everyone. I am too simple and too pigheaded to ever really shutdown. I just siteban those who make it clear to all that their intent is to be twinks. What is a twink? It is a person who destroys everyone else's good time by taking so much of the staff's time they cannot get their work done, and thus unfairly depriving good people that we are here to work for of our work. Amongst other things. Since this interesting thread has now devolved to yet another way that our clique of haters can blaspheme the workers, I may choose to move it to my forum, The Store Forum, since I was "hired" to handle and wade hip deep into your hatred. The average Poser Fan here is just not interested nor should they have to have their bboard cluttered with it. Hrmm this hate... such animosity toward those who sustain and build your "free" community for you to gain the advantages of. Why do you Allerleirauh feel such venom and spite? And you PJF? And this other venomous person, Shaerra? And you TazmaniaK? Do you believe your acrimony and hatred builds community spirit? Do you believe your slander and libel motivates the creators (and YES, we ARE creators) to go on giving you products for free? Who ARE you really? Willow and friends? No matter who you are, you are in fact the forces of Entropy and World Destruction. I know you. I have for some time been preparing an interesting statistical analysis to privately share with the staff who are feeling a bit down... those who work their fingers to the bones for you for free. Those who have had the audacity to choose to sell their better products to try to support not only this community's overhead costs, but also maybe buy their kids a gallon of milk. I was not in fact going to do anything save send it out to a few who are feeling your hatred and heat, as a cheer up note. Now perhaps it is time instead to think of fighting fire with fire, and publishing my statistics. I will post them in a second posting after this one called STATISTICS. Now. Enough said. I do not have time for this. Nor does anyone here who has the ambition of providing this community with a store run by people you know and stocked by things made by people you know. Allerleirauh, if it will comfort your soul any be assured I will never download anything of yours that you find time and energy to put into free stuff again. I have now deleted the one thing of yours I did choose once to clutter my hard drive with. I am good enough to make my own blasted transparency maps. Really. You wanted a war, you have now got one babe. Take me on. That said, I tender my voluntary resignation to Jack and to Edarsenal if they wish to accept it, since I doubt they need someone who won't take your shit working for them and bringing them even more grief on top of the grief they are getting from you all, and the other massive issues we as staff face in getting this moving. Issues most of you haters are not even aware of nor need to be, since we took the job of doing that worrying and work for you. I won't take your shit. I myself would siteban rather than take shit off twinks. If they do not choose to accept my resignation, I shall go on working on what matters to me, an efficient community of contributors on all levels, staffed by a responsive and capable ecommerce staff, coded to meet your needs, and to provide you with alternatives. Liz Birdsong hbg@kreative.net

THE STATISTICS DO NOT LIE

Detractors Donations to Freestuff Supporters Donations to Freestuff And for Sale Shaerra 0 Traveler 4 + 1000's 16 PJF 0 PhilC  38 7 mikes 0 nerd 35 1 bazookajoe 0 Fur 1 0 BAM 0 Stormrage 11 2 TazmaniaK 0 clintH 2 5 Allerleirauh 6 pam 13 3 Which happen to be re-mapping, textures, and morphs built upon the Geometry she now DISCREDITS others for using to build upon. These 6 items are GOOD. They were submitted over a 6 month long period it would seem. Perhaps had Alle been working under the motivation of a dollar or two to look forward to, she would have submitted her 6 excellent works inside a month. And by now be up to 36. Davo 8 10 GeorgeD 9 7 Bast 5 groups, many dozen things total in those groups 0 There were of course a few more very lavishly hypercritical detractors, but I grew tired of getting no results on searches of the database so I gave up. If one of you detractors contributed heavily to free stuff and I missed you, apologies are tendered. mobius several models and textures hosted at other sites 2 GRAND TOTALS

  6   126+ 53 For those of you innocents caught in the middle of this tempest in a teapot, I would suggest you bank on the "creators" who choose to support the store, since it is clear that they are also the producers, the sharers, the genuine article, as my granny would have said.

Bast- Gee, chill out (and all that stuff!) I think we all get too hyper at times on discussions. I think STORM and some others have a point, but some of them are also living in a dream world where people put lots of effort into stuff they give away for free. Jack and all you guys do an excellent job here, just ignore all the whinning about "the store logo being too big" and all that. We all have to realise that if Poser is going to have a future is is going to be because Zygote (and Renderosity, and mabe even me) make money off stuff for Poser, which builds intrest and builds on itself until the point the new guys will say - "gee, there is money being spent, let's come out with Poser 5!" Otherwise we get to be a closed-off, dead-end hobby loop, like the people that still play around with Timex-Sinclair computers. But Allie is certainly right too, why is Millie so butt-ugly? Gee, and how do I fit into your table?

I have to admit this makes me real uncomfortable, but I shy away from confrontations unless there is something worth fighting about and then I'm there to the bitter end-this is NOT it. I've just found on this forum that there is always complaint and debate about every issue (well, not just on this forum--geez, I've been on the net for years and its everywhere LOL) and then things settle down to a gentle roar. I don't expect that Jack, et.al, are really concerned too much about the flap--they are used to the same folks being vocal and then just going ahead and being part of the community. I also don't think there's anyone in this conversation that is a shill for any other group--just the diversity of the community. But then I'm one of those that thinks you get more bees with honey (though in real life my friends think I'm a bit agressive and competitive--go figure--here where noone knows me except through posts, I end up as a pussycat G). Diane B

Jim, sure you are right, but let we live in our dream world, storm, me and some others. Don't scorn dreamers (come in the linux community to see what dreamers can do). Renderosity can go on with us (Bast you can add me to your stat donations 0 , but I hope to do...when I will be able to present a real thing and no a 1000e poser test:)) And in my dreams, I will nevertheless continue to buy zygote models. Traveler, I hate you : I will be obliged to buy your clothes set because of the renapdt textures :-)

Wow! I'm half afraid to butt in on this thread. I agree with everybody. A big problem I think is the misaprehension that every piece of software and every dot.com means big money. 1. When you can't afford a product it is easy to think that the people who can are driving up the price but not realize that the company might actually sell the product cheaper if they could afford to (though I do think for every licensed $600 copy of Photoshop there must be 6 illegal users who would have bought it legitimatly for $100). Some of the greatest software ever has been a bust for the company that produced it (Aprentice by Delta Toa for instance), the costs of software development can be staggering. 2. When you see an endevor like this forum that doesn't constantly beg for donations its hard to remeber all the disk space and bandwidth that must be paid for and thousands of hours which must be donated. You see the privledge of an open community unfettered by censorship and are afraid commerce will currupt it... but still, is the shop worse than banners? The bills do have to be paid, and if the people making the forum happen have demonstrated thier integrety in the past, give them a fair chance to prove they can maintain it even when comerce is introduced. 3. Most things on the web don't make money, we should ALL be happy if the Shop succedes in contributing some to the cost of maintaining this site and brings just a little finacial renumeration to those people who have already contributed so much. 4. Please excuse my aweful spelling. 5. Please, don't be mad at me anyone, I'm such a nice guy ;)

I have to admit, in a way I almost feel like I'm eavesdropping on a conversation that I shouldn't be able to contribute to. (Having such an obvious bias in Zygote's favor and in favor of commercial computer art in general; it's my living after all.) I just thought that I might be able to add some info about Zygote and our Poser products: Don't worry, Zygote has indeed received criticism for our pricing. Both public and private, both destructive and constructive. Both from our Poser users, the non-Poser users that buy our Poser products to use in other packages, and from our competitors and friends in the 3D business. (Most of whom think that we're crazy and are doing others in the business a major disservice by pricing so low.) We realize, however, that Poser-users are a unique demographic and need to be marketed to differently. Poser users have been good to Zygote, and we appreciate your business and feedback. Zygote has altered and experimented with our pricing structure a few times since we began creating Poser products. Those of you who have been around for the last two+ years probably know that. In retrospect, we feel that we were sometimes too high, and sometimes too low. We know that some people would not buy our models even at $10 a piece, we also know that many people would buy our products for 10 times what we sell them for. We do feel that a lower introductory price for most products has proven a good method for rewarding our regular and price-conscious customers (ie: those who have signed up on our mailing list), while allowing the infrequent customers to buy at full price. (Essentially this subsidizes the products for the rest of you.) As jval suggested above, we are a business and are familiar with economics and marketing strategies. We realize that there is some "magic price" for any given product that will make us more money than if set at any other price. We're happier the lower that price is, because that also means that Zygote gets more exposure and a wider clientelle. At the same time, however, we ultimately do need to make as much money per hour on Poser as we do modeling for our custom clients. (Or why do Poser at all?) Because of this fact, combined with how much support Poser requires, and how we often need to wait a significant amount of time to make back our money on a product, Zygote has twice seriously considered not developing for Poser anymore. You should know that we've always planned to continue selling and supporting the store we currently have. I don't want to sound too negative, however. You should also know that I think we're well past this stage in market evaluation. We appreciate the regularity of the Poser market, which doesn't fluctuate as much as the "bust and boom" 3D industry at large. We love selling Poser products; as small as this part of our business is, it has gotten us through a few otherwise dry-spells in one piece. Not to mention that it's just a fun product to develop for. Judging by what sells well, we at Zygote seem to share the interests of many Poser users. (This definitely can't always be said for Zygote's custom clients.) And while on the subject I must admit, this is a fun, diverse community as well. We at Zygote enjoy dealing with you people. As Bast mentioned, there are few 3D business that sell stock (or custom for that matter) models for prices as low as Zygote does. And just for the record, Acuris (the other less expensive company she mentioned) markets 18 Perfect People, a Zygote made product, along with a few other Zygote products. (That's why the figures look so similar; we made the Poser figures from the 18PP figures.) And finally, about individuals selling stuff for Poser... While it's not my business in a lot of ways, I certainly think that creators deserve to be reimbused for their work when they create a valuable product. While I don't dispute the advantages of free stuff, I have to agree with those that think that people will continue to create for free as well. Hope that this provided some insight on Zygote's marketing. Feel free to ask any further questions that I missed. Thanks for your support! -Chad Smith Zygote Media Group

I just wanted to make a comment about the chart from Bast. The assumtion you have made is the the things in the free stuff pages are actually free.... Wrong. Everything I have ever downloaded had some kind of a restriction for use or a clause that "if you make money from this then it is Mine statement." So I Download, I look , I read , I delete. So few things are truly free. Thanks to all the people who have post "FreeStuff" and thanks also to the many posters of "RestrictedStuff". If not for all the givers there would be nothing for the takers to take. I have purchased many a model from Zygote and plan to buy many more, to me they are a real bargain.

While I definately don't think this arguement should get quite so heated or become a Slamfest, I refuse to take Bast's resignation and think we ALL have to take a deep breath and calm down before this escalates further... Do you want my personal thoughts brought to light for you all to look at, do you think you have the courage to read them? Do you even really give a flying f_ck about what I my feelings are on this? If so, please visit the following link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12360&Form.ShowMessage=114249

LOL, I am a force of world destruction. Thank you Bast, for that and the other amusing remarks (but didn't someone say something about civility ruling?...). I can assure you I'm just me, and have no association with anyone else in your imaginary clique. I have no secret identity, and I can tell you that I am as suspicious of community leaders who operate a 'personality empire' as I am of those who take on an overtly commercial mantle. As for your statistics, they are like so many other sets of statistics generated for the purpose of backing up a preconceived standpoint. They are highly selective, and in that sense they do lie. It possibly says something about the mindset that is developing around here that your stats refer only to material items. Those who are good at making things are quite likely to be high contributors to both the store and freestuff. I can't speak for anyone else in your list of venomous, spiteful haters, but I'm afraid my creative abilities are not remotely approaching the standards that others might be interested in. I'm only really able to offer limited advice in written form. There is more to contributing to this place than offering things in freestuff. So I'm afraid in that respect your statistics are irrelevant. To make your statistics more accurate and more relevant, you should include contributions to freestuff by members of this community who don't feel the need to sell anything at all. Of course, a normal webpage as used in these forums isn't long enough to accommodate all those individuals... If you also included those contributions that don't consist of material items, you stats would be even more accurate - and even more difficult to present. Bast wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Since this interesting thread has now devolved to yet another way that our clique of haters can blaspheme the workers... <<<<<<<<<<<< I'm afraid this thread just sat there asking for a contrary viewpoint (and those who choose to express contrary viewpoints do not deserve to be labelled haters and conspirators). Personally, in the context of this place having a shop stuck on its back, I found STORM's comments about Zygote's clear and upfront commercial enterprise to be borderline outrageous, even allowing for the humorous presentation. Right, Im off to blow a few world landmarks to bits and pieces.

Wow! I get back here and It seems in the meantime that WW3 has broken out and the questions I raised about Vickis pricing have been turned back to the earlier debate about the Store and this site. Let me state for the record I believe the Store is a good thing; I support it on or off this site. I had questions about commission rates and the commercial strategy, which were answered by Jack. The bottom line on all of this is that this site needs to earn money to survive in its present form and also if it wants to grow. If Jack and the team get it wrong people will "virtually walk". That is a heavy burden and I do not envy them their task, nor their massive input into making this place happen. I am sure they all have had many sleepless nights planning, working and worrying. Bast I understand your emotion but I think your words were written in haste, in the heat of the moment. We have all been there, dog-tired and emotionally blasted. There is no hidden agenda that I am aware of, just people genuinely interested in the future of their online home, expressing themselves and their concerns with varying degrees of ability and wanting to discuss issues that they feel are important. As Ikyoto pointed out the fact that debate happens makes this place a community and as such the right to debate and even dissension should be respected on all sides with the one proviso, that the debate is carried out in a civilised manner. Now can we please get back to the issue and as Jim Burton suggested "chill out". Chad thank you for joining in, you have every right to and I hope you do not take my questioning Zygote's pricing as an attack but I think you got it wrong this time. You rightly point out that Poser users are "demographically unique" with the greatest proportion being non-commercial users. Price comparisons with other non-Poser model markets (which are aimed at mainly commercial and industry users) do not work because they are completely different markets. If any commercial producer were to charge 100s of dollars for single Poser Models they will earn very little from the vast majority of Poser users and consequently have a tiny market share percentage and penetration. This has implications for the market's awareness of the products of those companies and their influence on the market. It also usually entails higher marketing costs for products (Zygote currently enjoys a very high profile among Poser users which probably equals low marketing costs for their Poser products). And despite having to balance the internal production economies of Zygote there is more to business than sales and profit. There is also goodwill, market share maintenance and even dominance, all of which have a real dollar price tag when estimating the value of a company. Looking at the Victoria downloads page here it is possible to get some idea of the number of Victoria units sold. The downloads vary but peak on some items at around 1,800. Taking into account factors such as failed downloads and curiosity, I would estimate you have sold around 1200 units to users of these forums with maximum sales of about 2000 in general, less than 10% of this 15,000-strong-market. Perhaps if Vicky were around $50 and all her accessories in a pack costing $20 you might have had a significantly greater market percentage which would have given you equal profit but a much stronger leverage on future sales of Vicky developments and products. It would have also generated much greater goodwill (in the business sense of the word). In addition to all of this there is a large and growing skills pool among very talented Poser users who are pushing the models far beyond what Metacreations envisaged for Poser 4 and this has future consequences for the market. On that issue I want to ask you a question. When I look at Victoria I am reminded of the "eyes" developed by Bushi, Nerd and Bloodsong; by the changed body structure developed by Torino (Eve); and by the transparency mapped hair developed by Grey (I think he was the first) and further developed by Kozaburo and then Allerleirauh and many others. How much was Victoria and Zygote influenced by these developments? STORM

PJF "Personally, in the context of this place having a shop stuck on its back, I found STORM's comments about Zygote's clear and upfront commercial enterprise to be borderline outrageous, even allowing for the humorous presentation." I am a little confused by the above. What comments exactly? As far as I am concerned I am questioning the cost of Victoria, as a member of a community and a market which consumes products from Zygote and on a forum which looks at all things to do with Poser. Equally I have questioned the commercial strategies in the Store. What is "borderline outrageous" about all of the above? Surely it is the right of all of us as consumers to question and debate such things, and do it on a forum dedicated to the product? STORM

My blunder, I'm afraid STORM. I'd mistakenly got the impression from another thread that you were admin here, and were speaking as such when you started this thread. In the light of my new information, I apologise and withdraw the term 'outrageous'. I replace it with 'misguided', but without the 'borderline' prefix. :-) You seem to have developed a selective memory when you imply that this thread has somehow been turned away from an alleged simple subject of the pricing structure for Zygote's Victoria model. In your original post, you wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> ...I can't help comparing and contrasting the wonderful reception all of this is getting here (not to mention the huge amount of free sales publicity for Zygote) with some of the critical threads on fellow Artists from this community selling their stuff in the Renderosity Online Store. Here we are questioning and debating the morality of commercialism and its effect on Free Stuff and this Place or even if the Store should be here at all?... ...What I just don't understand are the completely contrasting reactions (my own included when I questioned commission levels) to the Online Store and to Victoria... <<<<<<<<<<< You started it! You chose to make the comparison, and that's what I addressed that in my first post. Other mention was made of Zygote vs Renderosity Online Store: Bast wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Competition is good. The store we are making will give Zygote a run for their money. <<<<<<<<<<<< My post also refered to this. Fair competition is good, but I don't believe the store is fair competition. As for Vickie's pricing, well I can only conclude that you haven't got much of a clue about what's involved in creating a figure from scratch, or about the balancing act involved in marketing a product. Nor has Bast, for she is utterly deluded that what she makes is remotely comparible to Zygote's creations (it is Zygote's creation, LOL). Zygote's operation is professional and upfront. The Renderosity Online Store is amatuerish buggering about in comparison, and if it was fairly competing on a level playing field, I can't think that Zygote would do anything other than smile.

Thank you for withdrawing "outrageous" PJF. By contrasting Vicky's reception with the Store's it was a way of drawing attention to my perceived difference in the lack of any comment or debate on her as a commercial product (while enjoying prominence here) with the intense debate around the setting up of the Store. That is all. It was not intended to reopen that debate. The thread was essentially about what we pay for commercial products and if we as consumers should do what other consumers do in other markets. As for Vicky's pricing and what goes into producing a new and unique figure I have some idea of what goes into the making, as I am along that hard road myself. As for cost, in purely financial terms if your costs exceed you returns you are out of business. By the same token if you price is too high you may not meet your costs. The balancing act is keeping costs down and maximising sales. Look at what happened over 25 years ago to the car manufacturing industry world-wide when Japanese imports cut the heart out of all of the established companies and how they have since recovered by innovative products, manufacturing techniques and cost controls. And there are countless other examples including the computer hardware and software industry. Competition and consumer lobbies have played a part in all of that. And finally as to the Store being amateurish, well I am sure Zygote started off small, Bill Gates started in a garage (not that I hope the Store goes the Microsoft route!). Give it time, let it walk first and then run. Nobody is born a professional, it happens over time. It is 3am here, time for bed. 'night all STORM

"I hope you do not take my questioning Zygote's pricing as an attack..." Don't worry, Storm. I noticed and appreciated that you specifically stated a couple of times that you weren't attacking Zygote, so I knew you didn't want anything to be taken in the wrong way. Thanks. Also, I appreciate your concerns. Like I said, others have also raised public and private criticism about our pricing many times. "You rightly point out that Poser users are "demographically unique" with the greatest proportion being non-commercial users. Price comparisons with other non-Poser model markets (which are aimed at mainly commercial and industry users) do not work because they are completely different markets." Now that you mention it, how many high-quality computer models are marketed toward a primarily non-commercial consumer-base? I'm not trying to be facetious here; the point is that at Zygote we aren't comparing our marketing to specifically anything else we know of. We are actually very excited to see "how low we can go" in this market without shooting ourselves in the foot. It is, of course, a gradual decent at this point. We have in the past - and still do - experiment with selling some models for less than others, and we have also had some products that never made back Zygote's investment in development. (And I mean real investment: what we pay employees to do the work, and not what we need to make to break even with what we would have made working for a different market.) "If any commercial producer were to charge 100s of dollars for single Poser Models they will earn very little from the vast majority of Poser users and consequently have a tiny market share percentage and penetration." I agree, and believe that this is why very few companies are concerned with making their products Poser-compatible. "This has implications for the market's awareness of the products of those companies and their influence on the market. It also usually entails higher marketing costs for products (Zygote currently enjoys a very high profile among Poser users which probably equals low marketing costs for their Poser products). And despite having to balance the internal production economies of Zygote there is more to business than sales and profit. There is also goodwill, market share maintenance and even dominance, all of which have a real dollar price tag when estimating the value of a company." You've made some excellent points here, Storm. I think you must have some good business experience, and I couldn't agree more. Zygote does value and consider these issues when deciding marketing strategies. On the other hand, these products do take a fixed amount of development and equipment which can only be subsidized so much by a company as small as Zygote. (In fact, our Poser products are considerably more development-intensive than are our custom projects. You'll notice that our regular models don't come with templates, morphs, materials or set up for animation in any package, despite costing 10 times as much as our Poser models.) "Looking at the Victoria downloads page here it is possible to get some idea of the number of Victoria units sold. The downloads vary but peak on some items at around 1,800. Taking into account factors such as failed downloads and curiosity, I would estimate you have sold around 1200 units to users of these forums with maximum sales of about 2000 in general, less than 10% of this 15,000-strong-market." Again, I'm quite impressed with the thought you've put into this. (I don't think most people would have factored in the failed downloads and Zygote Poser customers outside of the Poser online community. I would add a few illegally passed around copies as a factor, too.) I have to admit, I was a little surprised to see Vicki add-ons downloaded hundreds of times more than actual Victorias sold. "Perhaps if Vicky were around $50 and all her accessories in a pack costing $20 you might have had a significantly greater market percentage which would have given you equal profit but a much stronger leverage on future sales of Vicky developments and products. It would have also generated much greater goodwill (in the business sense of the word)." Again valid points, and ones which were considered at the time. As it was, our introductory price for Victoria was $10 higher than your suggested $50, and her clothing pack is only $.97 higher than your suggested $20 with the 40% off coupon Zygote gave to Vicki purchasers. Many people here at Zygote preferred to have Victoria's introductory special price as $99, regular $150. Dan and I (the ones more involved with the Poser community) pushed for lowering the price in order to make this figure the new "standard" for Poser, which obviously requires mass purchasing. Our compromise was to price in the middle, and to have the introductory pricing be 40% lower. I hope we did OK. The problem with marketing is that even in retrospect we'll never know how well this specific model would have done if marketed in another way. "In addition to all of this there is a large and growing skills pool among very talented Poser users who are pushing the models far beyond what Metacreations envisaged for Poser 4 and this has future consequences for the market." Zygote knows this, although probably not as well as you full-tiome members of this community, and we're very glad of it. We think this will push Poser to new heights. As is demonstrated in Victoria, we are trying to build more sophisticated and versatile products for an increasingly talented group of users. "When I look at Victoria I am reminded of the "eyes" developed by Bushi, Nerd and Bloodsong; by the changed body structure developed by Torino (Eve); and by the transparency mapped hair developed by Grey (I think he was the first) and further developed by Kozaburo and then Allerleirauh and many others. How much was Victoria and Zygote influenced by these developments?" Good question. As far as the eyes go, we have still never checked out any of the eyes you mention. However, we were told by our beta-testers how they worked theoretically, and this is what we based our work on. It's a good work-around for what I basically consider a Poser limitation. As for the modified grouping and geometry, we did have the Eve figure sent to us by one of our beta-testers. This was after we had roughly decided how to group, which we did over a year ago when we first discussed creating a "next-generation" Poser figure, but was still before we had finished grouping the model. So, yes, we were influenced by the Eve figure, which I think was very well done. At the same time, Torino and Zygote were both facing the same challenges and I don't think it surprising that we would come up with similar results independently. BTW, Zygote did create a Poser model with a hip, lHip and rHip grouping (just a difference in naming conventions; we decided to stay with Torino's conventions already in public use) to solve this problem also over a year ago (before Eve came out, I think). We had debated on adding knee, elbow, breast and buttock groups (as well as modifying the collar boundarys) at the time we planned the content for Poser4 with Metacreations. But the bottom line is that we did indeed experiment with and use elements from Eve that would have been slightly different in Victoria had we not heard of Eve. (Which I consider to be a high compliment to Torino's work.) And as far as transparency mapping hair (or anything else for that matter): Though this is a recent capability for Poser, Zygote has been trans-mapping all kinds of models since before we ever heard of Poser. I don't mean to belittle any of the work done here. I think it deserves almost as much credit as for discovering techniques like this for the first time, as those "re-discovering" these techniques for Poser were probably not aware of their existence in other areas earlier. Obviously (or perhaps not), as soon as Zygote was told that Poser4 would include transparency capability, we thought of the ramifications and the products we could now produce. We did feel "beaten to the punch" by the Poser users, and regretted that we were too busy to develop that for Poser at the time. Wow, this has been a long post. To end, thanks for your questions, Storm. I hope that my answers have been informative and interesting. In case I have said anything here that makes anyone feel like Poser and its users are not very important to Zygote, or that Zygote doesn't respect or takes you for granted, then I would like to make it clear that the opposite is true. Thanks for your support, concerns, and suggestions. -Chad Smith Zygote Media Group

Hello I bought almost all metacreations softwares and also many other graphics softwares. I did and still buy a lot of Zygote models. Overall I am very satisfied even if I do not have time to do very much with all this stuff (not even a texture) When we buy something at a certain prize at Zygote, we have to remember that Zygote give us support on our purchase and even reimburse our money if we are not satisfied. The support cost something those days. I can tell that Doug Wheller from Zygote always gave me a very good support and this is why I will still buy at Zygote. ALso, Zygote give a free model every week and many of them are very good. This also cost money. To finish, Victoria was not $99 when I bought it, she was something like $59 when they start the promotion and the clothing pak are now at 40% reduction. If you considered all time you will spend on those models and stuffs is worth while a couple beers. This forum is very fabulous and I am learning a lot from all of you and I want to thanks you for this, Claude

This little rant is directed at one person, but it can EASILY be applied to all those who have posted so many damned spiteful and just plain selfish remarks.... PJF: "The Renderosity Online Store is amatuerish buggering about in comparison, and if it was fairly competing on a level playing field, I can't think that Zygote would do anything other than smile. " Ok hotshot.. do better. I work in the internet business and can tell you it takes a hell of a lot of time and capitol to get anything like this running. It is not something you can just pull out of thin air. The staff here have been doing this without any external support and now a acidic typist comes along and lets the world know that common humanity and respect for the feelings of other is dead... ok then. Lets get it out in the open: If you don't like what's going on here, piss off. You have all the negative things in the world to say, but I have yet to see anything from you that is a simple "thank you" to the people who are going broke to keep this palce going.. and you just piss on thier efforts to make some money to keep it alive! And I don't want any quotes being dug up from past posts.. what you have said here show where your head is. I offered them money - they said NO! They told me to buy something so the artists get a some pay for what they've done... I intend to do just that. If I have to buy the same damn thing every week I will.. the artists and staff that keep this web site going deserve my support and your rotten attitude reeks of selfishness and comtributes nothing. Either do something to help or shut the hell up. I have spent my life seeing self rightous people like you take and take and when they are reminded by a simple sign that they are here due to the efforts of other people they throw a fit... If you want a free ride be ready to help push the cart after you kill the horse. PS- any further remarks from you will be cheerfully ignored. I have friends here who need help and would rather do that than argue the situation here with you.

Hay Viewpoint wants $2500.00 for there vetion of stuff, so live with it. If people want payment for their work, then all power to them. I am almost embarased by this strand, because it as if there isn;t enough respect for people like Ikyoto that have given all of us so much. If it wasn't for theese people, we would still be in the dark ages. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. -Gabe-

If you've owned and run a site as BIG and with as many users as this one, then I'd say you have the experience to say what you just did. But until you actually have done this, you don't know anything! I honestly am starting to believe that those who give SERIOUS grief here should be banned since their ungrateful attitudes are starting to seriously piss ME off. A seriously steamed Greywolf

Taz... thank you for showing us how very little you know. We appreciate it :o) Jack

Taz, you have no idea of the bandwidth or the file storage that's required by this site. This ain't some penny-ante personal site (like mine is, for instance)! This is a free service of professional quality, with thousands of regular users. I'm amazed that this site, and Renderotica, have been up so long, considering the costs. The bandwidth of 'Rosity alone would be enough to drag down many an ISP. Get real, and think before you type. The only problem I have with ads is that they don't pay much. I get about 1,000 hits a day on my site, and never got a single penny from the ads I ran for months. Almost any business setup that the admins here can come up with has my support, if it keeps these sites and their wonderful resources available and free! 100 MB storage? 3,000 MB per month bandwidth? That's not even in the same ballpark as what these sites require! Just because you state that you know the business aspects of running Web sites doesn't make it true. Obviously.

This site alone blows through 3,000 mbs in ONE DAY!!! Here posted for your convienance is the stats for Renderosity just for the month of April.... (Figures in parentheses refer to the last 7 days). Successful requests: 5,641,041 (1,393,098) Average successful requests per day: 188,187 (199,013) Successful requests for pages: 2,595,797 (640,485) Average successful requests for pages per day: 86,596 (91,497) Failed requests: 105,955 (35,981) Redirected requests: 79,254 (13,903) Distinct files requested: 17,242 (14,089) Distinct hosts served: 86,592 (24,605) Corrupt logfile lines: 20 Data transferred: 95,996 Mbytes (23,228 Mbytes) Average data transferred per day: 3,202 Mbytes (3,318 Mbytes) Now talk to me about bandwith and costs... 'Nuff said Jack

Just posted it for you to see... which is allot, we host all of the artwork on our hard drive, the only thing we don't store is the Freestuff... Jack

O.K. You convinced me Jack ! I will take back my words! LOL

:o) No harm Taz :o) Jack

DONE! Everybody happy, now ??????? Someone still cryin'? Take care, and sleep well tonight :-) :-)

Thanks for showing us those awesome stats, Jack! Nothing like facts to settle disputes among reasonable people, which definitely includes you, Taz -- and me, too, I hope! ; )

Heya folks, Sorry I've been lying down on the job, I'll be moving this thread to it's new home now... -Jeff H.

Thanks Jeff, I should've done so myself, but my head has been spinning as of late... And your welcome ThralLord :o) Jack

I work for a web hosting company. If you guys are having problems and this site is costing you money i would like to know how. We charge by over amounts in hd usage our bandwidth has no limit set for our servers. Also If you guys are really in trouble please talk to me maybe i can help. But besides that please dont start making things that were for the community have a price tag that will hurt the community more than prosper i believe. If you need help and want to stop paying for the site please ask for help many here would be more than happy to help. As would I. Im sure i could help. As could others.

The Art Door and Rendervisions Community.
For Artists By Artists

I said I was uncomfortable with the tone set above and I still am--I just don't think we should try and divide the community by who contributes to Funstuff and who doesn't. I haven't added to the community by contributing to Funstuff but I've still always felt PART of the community. As to what the site is for--IMO, if you took away the Funstuff, then the site would STILL be a wonderful site. I think many of the people that participate in the forum come here for help or support, not necessarily the free stuff. I can't ever imagine that there won't be lots of places to pick up models because there are people out there that enjoy making models, textures and morphs. In all honesty, I think just a list of links to free downloads would be sufficient for this site--I don't really think the Funstuff is needed--its more convenient, but Rena, for instance, rarely adds anything to the Funstuff but has a ton of stuff on her site. If we start making lists of who has stuff in Funstuff and not OR seeing that as the main reason people come, then its all downhill from here. Yes, I think LOTS of people come here for Funstuff, but the site would continue to thrive without it, at least IMO--probably not 16,000, but those same folks are eating up bandwidth too. So--what IS this site supposed to be for anyway--maybe we DO need a 'mission statement'. (Actually I think there was one once). IMO--the site is for sharing, support, help. As an aside, the store is one way to help support the site so we CAN keep coming back here. If the crew decides to throw in the towel because of the human and financial costs of this site and the lack of support, then I'll be really sad, but understand. Diane B

Diane B, I agree, I like the free stuff, but I come here for the forums and gallerys :-)

To the detractors of the store: Okay after reading this thread My original opinion still stands in the thread The new store, of course it won't ever change because I know how much it costs to run a website and know how much money is involved with just a few members. I ran computations to find out how much it would have cost me on one of my sites if I had 16,000 members and frankly it would have forced me into bankruptcy. I come here for the forums and the galleries. I check out the free stuff but hell I roam the net looking for free stuff not on Renderosity or Renderotica to add to Omni 3D. If all i wanted was free stuff I would look for Lannies links to all the sites and go get them. That's not what I want. I like helping people So I come to the threads to help people with Poser or bryce. I like seeing other peoples art therefore i visit the galleries. I love talking to people so I am usually around in chats and other places. For that I would pay Jack and crew anything. Because they give us the freedom to do all that and more. my personal statistics Free items (granted for non-commercial AND commercial use without my permission) 35 Time used for making free items 3,590 Downloads of free items 459,041 Items for sale 2 Downloads (not sure) Time spent making the three decks (of which two have only been offered for sale) 150 hours (All items I have offered for download have been on Renderosity but moved when I needed room for something new. Most sites don't allow Remote linking and is what caused the move of much of my downloads) Okay so I am probably anal for keeping records of this stuff but I do so there :)~ I have offered all of my stuff for free until now And I changed my free stuff limitations back when people where having hissy's that people demanded credit. I could rightly ask for payment on my props but I don't and I have told people who write me and ask for permission to use my props in commercial ventures that I don't really want payment for them. Now i am offering 2 props that have taken me quite a while to do and basically being told that I am just trying to make money off of Renderosity. That I have never contributed to this community. #1 I have the facts to prove that I have contributed something. (Though I want to do a lot more) #2 this comes from people who have either not contributed anything or just one or two great things. I wanted to buy Vicky. But after buying two new programs that will enable me to create more free stuff I can't. So I decided that my two decks would be for sale The other one (an easier and less extensive deck admittedly) would be offered for free on the free stuff, another would be given in a contest for Omni 3D later this year. I am such a rotten person for even wanting to sell anything. That's all I hear from certain people. All the money I have made has gone into this new passion of mine. But you know what none of the extra props, characters, clothes and hairs is bought It's all free. (except one prop which I won last month)But I would have gladly paid for everything I have downloaded. I use the free stuff instead of buying the props and stuff I want Simply because I decided that I could Contribute more to this community by getting the right programs to offer more and more free stuff. i am not rich. I have a three year old daughter I am making a life worth living for. Yet I can still get the right programs make sure she has all she needs and some of her wants and still be able to contribute to the free stuff. Now I just want to sell a few items to actually be able to do more. Now I just want to actually be able to tell people that I am not going steadily into the hole just because i care about an online community of Poser users who seem to be greedy. I have to look myself in the mirror and say Hey I sold something so I can go buy the newest upgrade of 3D Max so I can build that great prop, clothing for people to use free. Damn I am such an idiot for wanting to sell anything. Rolling eyes Just open all of your eyes and look at the big picture not the little one that tells you you are being stolen from That you will lose your precious free stuff. I will let you in on a secret If you keep pissing off those who offer free things There WILL be less items but it won't be because they are selling them It will be because we are tired of being called idiots and jerks, and thieves. grow up and get a clue. StormRage P.S. I have seen rena only object to the store once maybe twice but haven't seen any other posts by her on this subject. I could be wrong.. While another continues to blast this community about how bad it is to have the store.

I stand by what I said Allerleirauh And it was not exactly directed at You.. Storm

<> Sadly, this latter seems to be what's happening to Willow's PFO site... Allie said: <<There are not 16,000 members of this site because they want to buy bbay products. They are here because of Freestuff.>> Negative. I have bought nothing from the store, because the few items I want are priced out of my current ability to afford, but neither the Free Stuff NOR the Store is a reason why I'm here, or why I continue to come - I found the Original Poser Forum back when it was a single, cohesive unite, years ago when looking for advice to get something (I don't remember what now) to work correctly (the manual for Poser 2 was incorrect on whatever point this was). I found help, and a bunch of strange, temperamental, but helpful people and stayed because of that. The free downloads were a bonus, but not a reason to come here nor to stay. I'll bet money I'm not alone in this.

Chad thanks for your prompt, comprehensive and open reply. Your attitude is a credit to Zygote and will no doubt continue to foster the goodwill I was writing about. I do not want to prolong this thread much longer and keep dragging you back here but in the context of all you have said I would ask you to consider one more thing. I hope you will not find what I suggest below to be the words of an interfering busybody trying to run your company for you. You mentioned that Zygote hoped to make Victoria the new standard for Poser. I do not think that a less than 10% of market penetration will achieve that, you will need a considerably higher %. That is a pity because I would like to see a high-res model become the market standard, sooner rather than later (because of the obvious advantages of many artist users making morphs, textures cloths etc for that new model). I believe that you could still achieve this. If I were running Zygote...(he, he)... Well I would compare my sales split for the periods when Victoria was at the reduced price to when she went up to the full price. If I found that the split dramatically favoured sales during the reduced price period, and that sales during the full price period were more sluggish than anticipated, I would seriously consider bringing her price back down to the reduced price, permanently. Okay I know this poses problems, what do you do about customers that have paid the full price? Well if the split is 90% to 10% or something along those lines, offer them a choice of refund or credit against other Victoria products for the balance. Most will probably opt for the products and the cash will stay in your bank. If you have already covered your development costs and you still hope to make Victoria the standard Poser mesh I think this is a business risk worth considering and taking. For evidence of how this might be received just look above at this post alone, Ikyoto said that $100 meshes were too rich for him, momodot said that $40 was the limit of his discretionary spending (it might rise to $60 for Victoria) and there are many more on this forum who may well be swayed by the reduced price. In addition the goodwill impact would be huge - "company responds to consumer wishes etc.etc." - and it would give you greater future market leverage. I can hear it now. Why is this guy - who says he is planning to go into business himself - helping or offering advice to a future competitor? Any conspiracy theorists out there can have a field day with this one. Well it is simple really. Poser's future has been assured by its purchase from Metacreations. If Larry Weinberg and partners incorporate even some of what has been suggested in the various wishlists into Poser 5, and keep the price down, it has the potential to become the main character modelling and animation program for both amateurs and professionals. That would mean a much larger market for all model makers and plug-in developers who require either high unit price sales or very high volume sales to a mass market to become interested. Such a market means room for many suppliers and does not necessarily mean hostile competition. If this happens I can envisage situations where competing companies could team up to complete set out projects, hire or work partnership deals with talented poser users on projects, and compete honourably for their share of the differing market segments. If it happens Poser goods will probably become a far greater percentage of Zygote's profile and earnings. And if anyone thinks that my opinion about Posers potential is mad just look at Jasc's Paintshop Pro, priced at a fifth of its main competitor Photoshop. I think their boast is 15 million users and rising. So, it is not quite up to Photoshop yet, well the next release or the one after will probably get it on a par with Photoshop. As it stands it is more than enough for most people's needs here, as it does the job equally well. Thanks for your time STORM

"I do not want to prolong this thread much longer and keep dragging you back here but in the context of all you have said I would ask you to consider one more thing." Thanks for emailing me privately to let me know that you'd posted a response here specifically for me, Storm. (I have to admit that after the subject of this thread took this turn, I stopped checking up on it.) "I hope you will not find what I suggest below to be the words of an interfering busybody trying to run your company for you." Not at all. I appreciate your concern and input. (Which seems quite valid.) "If I were running Zygote...(he, he)... Well I would compare my sales split for the periods when Victoria was at the reduced price to when she went up to the full price. If I found that the split dramatically favoured sales during the reduced price period, and that sales during the full price period were more sluggish than anticipated, I would seriously consider bringing her price back down to the reduced price, permanently." While Vicki's current sales are not necessarily less than we expected in the period immediately following her introductory rate, they certainly are drastically fewer. As a matter of policy, Zygote doesn't ever want to bring Vicki's price back down to her introductory special price. (We've been very happy with this system, and want always to reward those who buy early.) However, I have proposed your idea to the management, and we are considering lowering the permanent price. Though we wouldn't go down to the original $59.95, $69.95 or even $64.95 might be possible. At this point we're trying to estimate whether this price drop would make at least as much money as the current price, and pay for the refunds we would have to offer those who have paid $99.95 in the interim. (Good idea with the credit option, too, by the way.) "If you have already covered your development costs and you still hope to make Victoria the standard Poser mesh I think this is a business risk worth considering and taking." I agree, Storm. We'll see how management votes. For the record, we have already decided that the Millennium Man should be less expensive if possible. Despite our expectation that fewer Poser users will purchase a male model than a female model, we realize that these products will upsell one another and should be affordable together. "For evidence of how this might be received just look above at this post alone, Ikyoto said that $100 meshes were too rich for him, momodot said that $40 was the limit of his discretionary spending (it might rise to $60 for Victoria) and there are many more on this forum who may well be swayed by the reduced price. "In addition the goodwill impact would be huge - "company responds to consumer wishes etc.etc." - and it would give you greater future market leverage." It does seem that $100 is a cut-off number. (Placebo effect as well as wallet depth?) I'm sure you understand that it's difficult to calculate how many more Victoria's we'll sell at which specific lower prices, but again, I'm inclined to agree with you that some reduction would be good. Also, we've discussed the growing Poser market/Zygote customer base, which I expect will expand again with the release of Poser5. Because Victoria (and her man) will not be included in Poser, we hope for an expanding market to which we can sell Zygote's existing models. While a price reduction on Victoria may not make its money back immediately, we may see positive results a year from now, once more people use Poser and Zygote's products. "... [Poser 5] has the potential to become the main character modelling and animation program for both amateurs and professionals." While that's still a way off, we at Zygote agree that Poser has a lot of potential, and are excited for the expansion of its capabilities and market. "That would mean a much larger market for all model makers and plug-in developers who require either high unit price sales or very high volume sales to a mass market to become interested. "I also can envisage situations where seperate companies could team up to complete projects, hire or work partnership deals with talented poser users on projects, and compete honourably for their share of the differing market segments." Absolutely. Zygote has already had Poser product business/partnership relationships with Metacreations, House of Moves, The Forge Studios, and Lipsinc. Also, we've begun to broker the Poser products of individuals in our online store. I imagine that in a couple of years we will be working in cooperation with many more companies and individuals specifically marketing Poser products and plug-ins. I look forward to getting better acquainted with you and your work, too, Storm. Thanks for your suggestions and ideas. (Since this thread has shifted focus so dramatically, please contact me privately if you have any further thoughts on the issue.) I will inform you all as to what develops. -Chad Smith Zygote Media Group