CLICHE HOUNDS

It seems to me that there are distinct differences in art criticism [including poetry] between the UK and the USA. On another site, I had these comments on two lines in one of my poems [WORD WEAVER]:

.the last two lines seem clichto me.
.and the last two lines aren't that great.. kinda cliche even.

The lines were:

..may yet surpass the beauty of the rose
and lack the sting

Now, I've no problem with 'the last two lines aren't that great' a simple value judgement which the critic was entitled to make. It's the 'clich part that bothers me. To begin with I'm sure that there is a distinct difference in usage on each side of the Atlantic.

In the UK we talk about 'a clich a noun describing an actual utterance whether spoken or written. On that basis, since I have never before heard or read that particular cluster of words [and in 61 years I've heard and read an awful lot], it cannot be a clich

In the US, however, the word seems to be used as part of a compound verb 'to be clich and as such can be and is applied to concepts, images and even themes and subjects. Someone once criticised one of my pictures on the grounds that 'nudes are clich. well that's a thousand years of art dismissed summararily! I'm simply not comfortable with this usage since it is almost always derogatory and begs some important questions:

Firstly who decides what is clich The critic? The critic and his friends? The critic's Eng. Lit. teacher/professor? And what criteria do they use?
Secondly why does the critic assume that the writer cannot create completely original form of words or another image? Isn't it just possible that the writer might have selected these words because he/she considered them to be the mosr effective or appropriate?
Thirdly the search for novelty of expression can [and often does] lead to self-meaning slabs of verbal nonsense. Given the acknowledged antiquity of literature it is highly unlikely that anything written now is anything more than a variant on what has been written before.

However, I suspect the clichhounds will continue to hunt for these are the days of whine and posers.

I'm not one to rant, so I've written a little poem as a comment.

I don't know... I'm Italian, so my idea of clichcan be even different... On the whole I think that there are a few images in poetry, as well as prose, that are truly used a little too much, but you cannot call the image in itself a clich I thinks it depend a lot on how the poet uses it... Yesterday I was at a 'night of music and poetry'... I follow a small literary circle, and sometimes we are invited at such meetings... It was not a bad evening, the music (classical music) was good, and I met a lot of fellow writers (I'm not a poet myself, but I like to hear different voices)... There wasn't a given theme, and the poets gathering there came from different places, and some even never met before; but every, EVERY poem read yesterday had an image of 'seagulls above the sea', sometimes they were 'white birds above the deep water', and they were the metaphore for different things (souls, ghosts, love, peace and whatnot)... But I assured you that by the end of the evening I had paid for being allowed to shout "Clich" in the middle of the performance every time the blessed birds were mentioned... This doesn't mean that there cannot be good poems with seagulls in them, I've read some I really like... There are few images that are used a lot: moonlights, roses, SEAGULLS, eyes reflecting souls, etc. I think they are a difficult material to manage, because a lot of people use them... of course it makes a lot of difference how they are used, but if read in the wrong context... I'm sure that there were some good poems among the ones read yesterday, but after a while I wasn't even listening at them, merely waiting (never disappointed) for the seagulls to come out... Okay, sorry if I intruded in your thread, but after the 'night of music and seagulls' I needed a little rant too. And I'm not even a poet to write a comment in verse. ;)

What's cliche? getting four or five of the exact same pop up ads every day no matter what filters you try to dissuade their return. I don't think nudes are cliche.

Cliches are convenient short cuts ... we all hear them and use them in our normal language and it comforts us to repeat them. But they are also boring from repetition. The challenge of creativity is to find a way to wake the reader or listener up by presenting what they have not seen or heard before, or in a way that surprises them. That's my thought. It's true that roses are beautiful, but who doesn't know that? And is it original or insightful to talk about a rose and its thorns? There probably is a way...challenging yourself by not taking the easy way out makes the results more interesting for the reader. And that's part of the fun of having an imagination and being a creative person.

Roses and thorns reminds me of the Addams family and Morticia dutifully cutting off the "ugly" flowers so that she could better display the stems. It was a tidy twist on a cliche of flower arranging the said something intersting and original about the character, and surprised the viewer too. The cliche tilted effectively.

A cliche is a phrase or situation that is overly used. Around here, it's a cliche to say, "But it's a dry heat." (Everyone says that to try to console us when summer hits. My response is: I don't care if it's dry, 120F - 49C - is still freaking hot!) The dumb, sexy, blond secretary is a cliche. Love = roses, sadness = rain, thunderstorms in horror movies, all of these things are seen over and over again, so they can be considered cliche. In a way, your lines are cliche because love has been teamed up with roses throughout the centuries. On the other hand, the way you write it is outside the usual convention, so I probably wouldn't consider it cliche. (It would be easier to see it in the full poem for me to give a conclusive "yeah or nay," but considering the poems of yours that I've read, I suspect you didn't fall into the cliche pit.) That's my two pence. ;-)

The shorthand of the sterotype? The reflection of common experience? The refuge of the weak minded? The shelter of the familiar? heck, if I didn't use at least one cliche a day, my life would become as dreary and mundane as, well, my local "fine art" critic. Odd, Crescent -- the "Dry heat" of my home sounds strangely like the dry heat of yours. Agua Fria nearby? Or perhaps a salt? Maybe a mount lemmon or two...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Thank you all for your helpful definitions and opinions, though I'm not sure I agree with all your views: I would give, for example, a much greater priority to a writer's duty to communicate a message in the most effective way, rather than to any requirement to challenge or even to entertain. I also consider that some images are in themselves vivid and their potency [IMHO] is not diminished by the fact they are familiar and well-used. The rose / thorns image, for example, is used [in WORD WEAVER] to contrast the inherent gentility of words [the rose] with the dangers of action [thorns] - not an ordinary use of the comparison in any way. It may be that poets are inordinately analytical - and may focus on the technical elements of a poem to the detriment of the prime purpose which is to communicate some actual message or even a specific mood or emotion. Perhaps too many years of teaching 'Creative Writing' in Evening [Adult Education]has blunted my enthusiasm for such sport - heaven knows I spent enough time taking poems apart then. No ... I'll continue to judge poems by how well they 'tell their mind' and when writing my own little pieces will use whatever means seems most effective [even so-called cliches]. However, I really enjoyed ALL the responses and they certainly made me think - sufficient reward in itself. Thanks Meic WORD WEAVER Respect your craft, word-weaver, fashion your songs with care: since this may be the only way to tell your mind or let your lost and helpless tenderness find its way. So set your words' little feet upon the page so they may scamper, prance or pirouette or then perform some slow and solemn ceremonial across the page. Your word's embrace may not be so direct, so real and yet in truth may serve a different safer need. So polish your skills, weaver of words, since the gifts you bring may yet surpass the beauty of the rose and lack the sting

ysaen - you're my next door neighbor. ;-) I used to live in the Land of disEnchantment, but now I'm in Arid Zona, Land of Impeachment. (Not to mention the Green Bolgona and Pink Underwear.)

Ah, crescent, nothing like old Joe to make life a bit more interesting, is there.... Odd you should mention impeachment. One of the saddest things I've seen in a very long time, and something that will stick with me a long time happened at the state fair. I was strolling through one of the merchant areas (I get lost there sooo easy!) and came around suddenly to this rather plain booth -- it was the spraseness of it that made me look, and I know you'll understand that -- and at it was just a table with about eight books on it behind which sat a man who looked as if the world had crushed him flat. The book was by Evan Mecham -- his side of the story, with that old Governor face smiling from it's otherwise vey simple jacket. The man was ole Evan himself, whom last I'd met some 25 years earlier while visiting a family friend you might also recall (Name of Sam Steiger, though I'll deny it forever), and while I was rather preoccupied during most of that, I recalled all of it just looking into his face. Made me sad, it did. Didn't change my mind about his term, mind you, but it surely made me sad. Howdy neighbor -- how bouts all this rain! Looks like we'll be able to drink water this summer after all!

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)