I was going to wait until the upload limit poll was done before posting this, but I decided to do it now because some of the issues are being discussed already on that thread, which may not really be the place for them. OK an idea on artwork feedback I've had banging around for a few months, and one that should NOT produce any controversy whatsoever, because it's an optional addition if a person doesn't like it then they don't use it. To set the scene and before I say anything, I must point out that I am extremely grateful for every single comment I get on my artwork, and BIG UP on everyone who takes the time and effort to do so it is very much appreciated. But what I personally am missing are constructive feedback and real criticism on my stuff. Without this I'm finding great difficulty improving and I do value the opinions of every genuine member on Renderosity. The Rendo community has a non-written policy that all comments should be of the type "great image" and any comment for improvement should be stated almost apologetically (with the possible exception of the high-end 3D package galleries). People are not willing to post real feedback for fear of being labelled a troll. Also, of course, many people do not WANT such feedback on their images, because they just post for pure fun and don't want people tearing their images to bits, which is fine too. So what I propose is pretty simple just a flag option (a tick-box) on the artwork upload screen, called "Give It To Me Straight" (or something similar!). If an artist wants real feedback they'll tick this box, otherwise they'll leave it blank. When the artwork thumb is displayed in the gallery, there will be a little icon beside it, indicating that the artist wants real feedback (and also another icon and explanatory message just above the comments section of the image itself.) This way people won't feel guilty about posting criticism and hopefully the artists will get ideas for improvement. As I said, if a person doesn't want their image examined "in depth" then they just don't tick the box. Personally I would not mind if comments on flagged images had the option of being made anonymous, because I know some people are too "polite" to post incisive criticism even when invited. OK, this could possibly attract trolls, but if the poster's name was available to admins behind the scenes then such posts could easily be dealt with under the TOS. Myself, I would gladly put up with a few trolls in order to get hear people REALLY think of my stuff. Does anyone have an ideas about this, or views?

"get hear people REALLY think" = "hear what people REALLY think"

hmm.. for some reason you hit the nail on the head right now for me.. Most images i make that are just for a laugh are the only ones i don't want some real input on.

Personally i would love to be told what needs to be improved, (and once in a great while i do get it) but mostly its "great work" I think most of my work is not so great and i want that troll to come along and pick it to peices... but I think its fear of TOS that keeps them at bay.

the trolling rule is left to vague for people, it needs to be definied more clearly as to what counts as trolling and what doesn't.(it would work wonders for those like me who aren't very good at not sounding like a jerk)

I agree...Total control over comments will have to be Paramount because other folks will troll if given an open invitation...

For the most part I thought that option was pretty much already available. When you go to upload your picture to the galleries, if you don't want feedback on it you can always choose that option. On the other had, I have not been so kind with my words when I thought somethings was off kilter, I let the artist know what I think. However, this doesn't mean that it needs to be done in nasty or mean manner. Things can be said constructivelyand with tact. But I would have to agree that this is the sort of feedback that appears to be lacking when it comes to the galleries (one reason I post my work in the forums where it usually leads to some sort of meaningful discussion instead). However, the forum is (mostly) only good for discussing technique with the particular program in question. What it is not good for is improvement of artistic value and that is what I would like to see more of. I want to know what people think about it as art, not my technique (that comes along with practice). I don't think an additional comment box in the galleries will help. Most people don't even use the box that is there now, do you honestly think they are going to use a second one? Lastly, it usually seems that unless the picture contains some sort of T&A, it usually doesn't receive too many comments (if any). I'm not complaining about the amount of work in the Poser end of things, just making an ibservation that if it isn't a naked woman who is amply endowed, nobody says anything. Just my two cents worth.

Just to clarify... "if you don't want feedback on it you can always choose that option." This is not about people who don't want feedback, it is about people who DO want feedback. "I don't think an additional comment box in the galleries will help. Most people don't even use the box that is there now, do you honestly think they are going to use a second one?" I'm not proposing an additional comments box, simply a flag to say what type of feedback the person is expecting, as I described above. The same comments box is used. As for getting no comments anyway - I think that's a bit of bad feeling there, no? ;))))

ok... a nice problem here, yes i like "wow , great" comments but i appreciate more constructive comments... but whem posting a comment i have some problems, sometimes I'd like to give a hint to better the image, but...first: my poor english and also the fact that i'm not in the artist mind block my comments. second: a great image inspires more people to leave a comment and some good criticism are mostly given from artist's friends. An example, here in the forum there's n image of Pidjy asking for some suggestions... I watched that image a lot and what can i add... it is a good wip but i don't know what pidjy wants to do with it so i can't help him. just my 2 cents

Hey vasquez - "my poor english"???? - sounds perfectly OK to me! "i don't know what pidjy wants to do with it so i can't help him." But he doesn't know what to do with it either, so that's why he's asking for suggestions! Personally I don't care who comments, world-class artists or someone who's never even tried to make a picture. Feedback is feedback and at the end of the day, if the artist doesn't think it's useful then (s)he can just ignore it. :)

And a comment on trolling; I think it's fairly clear what's a troll and what's not. Trolls will either make personal attacks (e.g. "Why did you post this, you asshole?") or make broad criticisms without qualifying them (e.g. "Your images suck"). It's perfectly OK - for those artists that want constructive feedback - to post something like "You should take more care over your images" or "you need to improve your postwork" as long as these statements are backed up with a bit of detail, because although this sounds harsh, it's direct, useful and to the point. I really don't think inviting constructive feedback will feed the trolls. OK, anonymous feedback might, but that's just something additional that I was thinking about.

i agree wholeheartedly. it'll improve what's already a great feature and the already excellent standard of work we view here. :-) palash

I know what you mean, but don't think a tick box would help... Too many members, too many opinions. Renderosity already needs some order (just check the new opinion poll hehe). I just don't think you can compare 'rosity to a high-end gallery, I mean it's good, than's why there're so many members and it's a great place to learn.

Maybe people can just mention on their images that constructive criticism is what they would prefer.

Just my 2 cents :)

i do have to agree that the constructive criticism is what is lacking. I used to belong to a local artist group here in my community and each month at our meetings we would each bring something we had been working on. we would hold it up and people would comment. We were required however to use something which somebody coined the "Oreo approach." You start out by pointing out something you do like about the work (not always an easy thing to do), then you would give your negative view and what you thought could be done to improve the piece, then you would close by either pointing out another positive aspect or repeating the one you had stated earlier. Although in practice this approach was used mainly on and for newcomers in an effort to soften the blow when the actual criticism came. Then again, you couldn't just offer a negative opinion without backing it up or saying why you felt that way, and you did have to tell what you thought could be done to make it more appealing. Although the entire process is subjective to the viewer and it was generally assumed that the people in the group had some level of intelligence to be able to discuss things in the first place. when I do get to go through the galleries here and have made comments I usually try to keep with this approach. Although there will always be those that no matter how much you cusion the criticism, they take it as a personal attack against their ego. So in the end, maybe your little "Give it to me straight" box would be a good idea. Personally, a I don't feel that a comment on my artwork is an attack on my person or my ego as I don't know these people anyway, so how could it be. To me it is only a comment on the pieces I have posted and nothing more. Lastly, I like that phrase...feed the trolls...all I can do is picture some people standing near the edge of a bridge throwing slabs of raw meat down into the mounths of the waiting trolls LOL. Sorry, just my weird sense of humour.

"all I can do is picture some people standing near the edge of a bridge throwing slabs of raw meat down into the mounths of the waiting trolls LOL" That gives me an idea for a pic - thanks! ;)

Tuttle,
The only use I can see for a flag when uploading is to add extra text to the comment box about giving it to the artist straight if that is what is desired.

A flag as part of the thumbnail or next to the thumbnail, like some banner of goodness, is only going to cause a class distinction based on an untruth. All artists I think want to improve, but we all have different tolerances as to what constitutes a helpful comment. Just because an artist doesn't want to hang a shingle that says, "Open Season" on their work, doesn't mean that they don't want any suggestions. However, a flag creates the myth that those that don't set it, don't want to improve ever, and thus will lead to arguments and nasty comments about pressuring artists to do so. I can see it now. "You should have set the flag on this, because you really need to improve and artists that don't improve are wasting every one's time." Not my sentiment, but I can see this being said.

From what I've seen artists that say "Give it to me straight" in the description (put it in big bold letters) usually get the comments they want, so I really don't see a need for this beyond like I said, adding text to the comment so people see it more.

Also, maybe a general critique forum not based on any program would be a good idea, rather than flags in the gallery. Just a thought...

Bulldawg66,
No offense, but the whole T&A gets all the glory, is a tired excuse. Comments and views come to solid images and artists that extend themselves to others. Yes, T&A does have it's fan club, but hundreds of other artists on here that don't have a tit anywhere in their gallery do just as well. Artistic merit and/or participating in the community can really go along way toward getting noticed and once you are noticed, others will too and then you are off. It takes a bit more work, but it's done by lots of artists.

My 2c

I think that's why workshops (where opinions are exchanged) are more valuable to creative development than static comments on the galleries. Ideas spark ideas. Growth happens. Comments on the galleries don't seem to me to hold that same dynamic exchange where something new develops from something existing. There are some people who give rich feedback on graphics, but not most. That's why I think people who solicit feedback on the forums tend to get more constructive information than people expecting comments on the gallery. On the forum, you get response from people interested in what you are doing and you tend to get less of that "this sucks," which is so useless. You also get to be more specific about what you want --- "I'm trying to create a film noir effect....how do I change this graphic so it has that feeling?" is going to get a better result than "Well, what do you think?" A specific question gets a better and more detailed response than a general one...that's true nearly everywhere. I don't think a checkbox will help (wouldn't do any harm, but I doubt if it will change anything). It's not a problem with the artists....it has to do with the viewers. The reason why endless T&A gets more hits isn't because there aren't other graphics on the galleries...it's because the majority of viewers like T&A. The reason why there isn't more constructive criticism isn't because the artists don't want it...it is because it isn't given except in rare and wonderful cases. We put all the responsibility on the administrators to change things on the galleries to make things different but, in truth, it is the nature and habit of the viewers that you would need to change to get the kind of feedback you want. But then I'm probably wrong. I usually am.

Hi Simon, U already know my feelings on this from my instant message. Behind ya all the way! Also think some sort of strict rules should be introduced that anyone found trolling regardless of membership length should be dealt with in the appropriate way! That would surely keep the Trolls out and keep the comments of a professional nature. Rules should not be seen as a restriction but as a protection for us all. Without rules and laws with consequences we would all go crazy wouldn't we? The world would be a mess! Peace all!

You could always add a rider to the title of your piece. Something like: 'give it to me straight'(as others have said) or 'constructive crits only'....or even...'Just for Fun!' I love constructive crits, others don't. I don't post WIPs because I have already planned my work and don't want to change things in the middle of construction. WIPs receive loads of comments and they would simply do my head in and ruin what I had in mind. That isn't to say that comments on WIPs are a bad thing...they aren't....I have problems that mean hearing comments on my WIPs destroy my thought processes; A real bummer when I've spent days thinking about what a particular piece of work need. A case in point: I wanted to create a 'Bum and Titty Grader' for this month's Bryce challenge. Apart from the fact that time was short for me, I couldn't get my head around what I wanted in my scene, so I've had to shelve that project for later. A WIP would simply have made things worse for me. Anyway, adding another tick box is, I beleive, a non-starter. Use the text spaces to say what you want from people............. Regards The Bryster

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader

All the Woes of a World by Jonathan Icknield aka The Bryster

And in my final hours - I would cling rather to the tattooed hand of kindness - than the unblemished hand of hate...

I honestly don't think the issue is that on comments on individual images in the galleries. Many times I've burned people's creations down for being extreme acts of newbie-ism. What pisses me off though, to be perfectly honest, is the sort of 'constructive' criticism which does NOTHING to improve the person's work. There's a difference between artwork and trash, and very few people are able to create artwork. Attempting to create artwork is something else, that requires varying degrees of talent. But again, that's not the issue. "Great job on that render!" BULLSHIT. Every day I see that around Renderosity. I am actually amazed at how docile this community is. I don't want flames, and I don't want comments which don't tell me what to improve. There is always something to improve upon. That texture screams DEFAULT, that pyramid is not a pyramid, it's a freaking cone, that monthly challenge was won with freebies, etc and ad nauseam. But that's something that's gotta change in the mentality of the community, not in the options that exist for comments. There's no need for the 'give it to me straight' button, there's a need for the 'give it to me straight and stop being a liar' mentality. Draculaz

"Use the text spaces to say what you want from people..." I see the point of people who say this, but to be honest, almost nobody reads text under an image unless it's a story or something. How many times have you seen artists' text under an image saying something like "Grass from 3DPlants.com" only to have a dozen "How did you do the grass?" comments, or "Clouds from a digital photo" followed by "Wow! I can't believe those clouds are Bryce!" I just thought that something small yet obvious, like a 12x12 pixel icon, would be instantly viewable without having to rely on people reading the image text, which they rarely do. After all, people who don't want to use it don't have to do anything different to what they're doing now.

Again Tuttle, putting that 12x12 graphic in the comment box instead of next to the thumbnail will do this and not create that distinction I mentioned earlier.

So what are you saying drac? People shouldn't be nice? People shouldn't say they think that's a nice render. Maybe they don't have any critisism or are not experienced enough to see if somethings not right in a render. As for constructive critisism, that's what were working towards here and I don't think your comments were any help. Closer to trolling than helpful. I understand what you are saying but think you are being far too extreme.

"Again Tuttle, putting that 12x12 graphic in the comment box instead of next to the thumbnail will do this and not create that distinction I mentioned earlier." I would have no problem with the icon being above the comments instead of the thumbnail, but it would need to be a specific icon (i.e. via Renderosity) or otherwise nobody would know what it meant. Is this what you are meaning? Again, I would reiterate that simply putting "give it to me straight" in capitals won't have the desired effect, especially amongst people who do not have English as their first language and would not have a clue what this means.

Fair enough Tuttle, I would have no problem with an icon that had international meaning. I just didn't like the placement that you had initially suggested (with the thumbnail in the main gallery)...

Hmm how about a Critique Genre within the galleries??? As an example - Gallery Poser catagory Critique If you click on the Critique Genre Button you would be, in essence, allowing other Artists to place constructive critiques to your artwork - Of course the Same "TOS No Troll Comments" would still apply - Members would be allowed to leave (as it already states) "Helpful comments for improving an image" Dee-Marie

"Hmm how about a Critique Genre within the galleries???" Yeah, I did consider this but I didn't suggest it because many times people will browse "all" genres and won't take any notice of which genre an image is in. However, IMO it would still be a big improvement and benefit to have a new genre. Maybe submitting an image to the "critique" genre could cause a small icon to appear above the comments box, to emphasise the fact? Just an idea :)

How about this: "if" we can get a "Critique Genre" started ... We could do a front page story on it - As well as have the moderators mention this new function in their forums :) It's a start in the right direction :) Dee-Marie

I browse 'all genres', but actually I always check the the genre of the image anyways. I contributes a lot to whether I should comment or not.

Deemarie's idea is one that I'm backing up by 100%. It's a wonderful idea! :)

I have to agree with The Bryster. "You could always add a rider to the title of your piece. Something like: 'give it to me straight'(as others have said) or 'constructive crits only'....or even...'Just for Fun!'" Draculaz... I think that your statment, "There's a difference between artwork and trash, and very few people are able to create artwork. Attempting to create artwork is something else, that requires varying degrees of talent." was very uncalled for. Nobody's work is trash. Some people, like myself, don't have time to sit in front of their computer 24/7 and play around with all the different parts of Bryce to become a master overnight... I have stretches of sometimes months where I put in a solid 15 hours of work a day and can't sit down to play with Bryce. That doesn't mean that my work is trash. And if I can't see anything I would do different in an work that someone is doing, that doesn't mean I don't have an eye for art. AND if I like what someone has done. I don't see where it is a bad thing to tell the artist that I like it just the way it is.... or as some people put it... Nice Render. I am disappointed in your statements. Don't get me wrong though. I am not flaming you... just disappointed in your statements and being critical. I like your work. Dialyn... you have a point in what you said that stands pretty true I think as well... "in truth, it is the nature and habit of the viewers that you would need to change to get the kind of feedback you want." I agree with you tuttle in that it is the criticisms that will make the artist better. That is the only reason I post any of the images I do.... which are not too many. As a matter of fact you will only find one that I have ever posted in the gallery. I would rather use the forum for criticism and would figure that the gallery would be a place for finished works. I am looking for feedback when I post something I am working on, good and bad. I am wanting to make my work the best it can be. This is why I post anything I am working on.... to get feed back.

There are 10 kinds of people: Those who know binary, and those who don't.

A whiner is about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest.

"How about this: "if" we can get a "Critique Genre" started ... We could do a front page story on it - As well as have the moderators mention this new function in their forums :) It's a start in the right direction :)" Sounds a great idea to me! :)

Sounds like a very good idea.

There are 10 kinds of people: Those who know binary, and those who don't.

A whiner is about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest.

Sometimes I would like feedback on just some areas. For instance, I know my shadows are not always correct and am slowly working on those, that's a comment I really don't want to hear any more, that's a continuing WIP. But composition, lighting, that's something I'd like to hear about in most of my pics. Do you think that people can focus enough to comment on just one thing important to the artist? And, another question, just cause I want constructive criticism doesn't mean I don't need a few strokes-- a couple of really good POV or really good concept, is sometimes the only thing to help me continue. So I would be worried sometimes people would think it was either/or. You either only want good comments or only want to know what you did wrong. Emily

I like the idea of a "Critique Genre", this would give us the chance to improve by help from our peers that we don't get too often in the regular galleries. If I want input on an image I usually post in the forum but recently there was a comment from derjimi that images should not be posted in the forum because it was a form of spam and I guess to a point he's right but how else do you get the constructive critisism you want. If there was even a WIP forum just for posting images and receiving critisism that would be a good way to receive comments. This problem has been on my mind for some time now and I too was going to post a thread about it so I'm very happy that you brought this to the communities attention tuttle. Catlin

I've got a problem with "Critique Genre". I mean, what is it? Just a sign that you want critiques? Argh. I think that a better job would be done by people themselves. Okay, not everybody can give a constructive criticism. (I'm vain enough to think that I can. :-)) But if those who can serve as models, I think it would be a better start. Although Draculaz did sound as bloodthirsty as his eponymous countryman :-), he's got a point. On the other hand, I agree with queri, too. Every single one of us needs strokes. But I personally don't like "Great job on that render!" comments. However sincerely that was meant, there's always a tiny nagging thorn of doubt about the sincerity. So, when leaving comments, whether positive or negative, try to be more specific. "I like the camera." "I like the textures." "I like the composition, but think that the textures are bad, because of this, this and that." On the third hand, Draculaz, I don't really mind if the picture is full of freebies. Of course, I would appreciate if the author created the models by themself. But not everybody has the same modelling skills. And if the picture is good, that's what's ultimately important. Unless the challenge or whatever states that you must not use ready-made models, of course.

-- erlik

swade, my sincerest apologies towards that comment i made. my meaning was that not everyone gets into this for art, and the distinct minority that does it for kicks is usually the one that gives itself the thumbs up, ignorant of others who do the hard work. it's so easy to add three primitives together, slap a few textures and call it a piece of 'art.' Drac

Criticism doesn't have to be negative. Feedback can always include, "the way you set the lights to create those subtle shadows really enhance the mood of the piece" tells an artists that they are on the right track with lighting. When did we get the idea that feedback has to be negative? Postive reinforcement of what is being done right can be equally helpful, so the person knows what they are doing right. No one was ever harmed by being told they are doing something right. It's being hammered on for always being wrong that causes the problems. I like the idea of a WIP forum. The galleries are already set up for feedback, which the artist can already turn on or off, but the Works in Progress can get buried...and I think a person working primarily in Poser could learn a lot about lighting from a person working primarily in Bryce and Vue. 3D art isn't one or the other...it's all tools put together that create a graphic. And, as an aside, I find modeling tedious and frustrating. It would be years before I can model my own stuff to use in graphics. I'll have quit the whole thing before I ever get to that point. Oh well.

I meant WIP can get buried in the forum....obviously they have their own gallery.

The problem at the moment is that people want different things from comments. So sure, the facility for commenting exists, but how is the person who makes the comments meant to know what the artist is after? I tend not to suggest improvements any more because although I know 95% of comments would be well received, I don't want to offend someone who has just posted to show something they created and couldn't care less about colour balance or soft shadows or point of focus. If your daughter brings you something she painted at school it would be pretty despicable to start on about its faults, but if you went to an art gallery and commented "wow, that's great" for each painting, people would think you were a simpleton. A critique gallery would go a long way to solving this problem both from an artist's and commenting artist's perspective. It certainly would do no harm. And yes, criticism is both positive and negative. I personally have never left a purely negative comment. I've always balanced it with a positive, more than one if I know the person is a beginner - like me! :)

Sorry, but I think a Critique Genre is just as bad, if not worse, than the icon next to the thumbnail. It's actually worse because now you limit the artist to having to put the picture in that specific genre if they want comments and not the one it was meant for. It also has the same problems as I mentioned earlier with people being sent to a specific genre, when their art is deemed as needing critique by some critic.

I still agree with Tuttle's 12x12 logo in the comment box and let the art be in the genre it was designed to go with...

To Draculaz,
I'm sorry, but blah, blah, blah. The end product is what viewers see and what art is judged on. Who's to say that three primitives is not art? You?? Are you that vain as to make that determination? Two different color lines on a canvas is not art IMO, but yet it sold for $25,000 at a gallery. So...How much time you spend, though I admire those that model their own work and for others, is not really considered by most viewers, as much as whether the art speaks to them. I've seen lots of incredibly well done and modeled scenes, but I don't remember most of them because they didn't say anything to me, but yet I still remember the upside down bear who was abandoned by a child. That used other people's models, but it spoke to me, and it touched my heart. That is what art is about, not what you did to get there. Is it unfair? Probably, but that's life...

A note on comments. To me, comments are generally in two categories, subjective and technical. I think the latter is helpful, while the former is really just a personal opinion, usually based on what that particular artist likes to see in his own work. These can be helpful too, the only problem is often it doesn't fit the image or the balance of the image. For instance, in my Dolphin Cove picture, the two dolphins out in the water are very large compared to the image scale. Some artists could call me on that and say that yeah, they are too big, but what they would find out if they were doing the image is that making them smaller would not balance the image and make them a useless element. So, I took some artistic liberty from reality and made them the size they were. I honestly don't believe that any of us, even the best, are qualified enough to look into the artist's mind and see what they were wanting to present from a strictly creative viewpoint. Also, such comments, right or wrong, seem to start a flow of comments that say "Yeah, I notice that too..." even though if someone hadn't said something to begin with, it would have gone unnoticed or even not been considered an issue.

Technical comments, on the other hand, like there is no shadows or the main subject is not the image's focus for example are very important to learn the proper scene setup when creating their visions. Knowing that a flickering candle, for example, creates light that is uneven on the walls, etc. These help add more believability to the image if that is what the artist is hoping for.

Again, art is expression and only the artist can express themselves. All we can do is encourage other artists and teach them the technical tools they will need to create what they see in their minds eyes, not yours, mine or anyone elses.

Also when commenting, we have to take into consideration how advanced they may be in the program. A lot of "mistakes" in art, are not because they do not know it's wrong (in fact, many are very accomplished traditional artists), but just that they haven't yet learned howt o pull that same thing off in the program. Saying, "That would work better with a particle plugin and global illumination." only tends to frustrate someone who probably doesn't even know what that means...

My 2c once again...

Yes, a work in progress and/or a critique forum would be great. They allow for two way communication which is a necessary thing (rather than the gallery's inherent one way commenting system). I would definitely support a WIP/Critique forum rather than such a gallery...

One idea - As to the Critique Genre - Don't forget that you can both Edit your Gallery Image and Genre at any time. So, when you feel you have address the items that "you wish to" in the Critique Genre - you could move your image over to what ever Genre you feel would better suit the image :) Or we could try for a WIP/Critique Forum instead :) Great ideas both :) ladynimue

I think ShadowWind has some very good points (and is probably now cursed because I agree). Personally the idea of a WIP/Crique Forum would be worth an experiment. If it gets to be a troll hole, the plug could be pulled, but if it is used as a workshop to improve people's artistic as well as their technical skills, it could be very exciting. And maybe some tutorials would come out of it. You never know unless you try.

I agree that a WIP/Critique forum would work well. i don't have the time in ANY day to cruise the galleries AND make constructive comments. I try to comment on others WIPs in the forums, because I can keep up on a few forums. I also agree that an image of a bridge, with artists throwing paintings underneath, to be swallowed whole by a computer monitor/troll would be a funny thing! LOL!

I'm not impressed with the idea of a forum. It's somehow too distant from the galleries. How would your image get into your personal gallery? Upload it twice? A forum doesn't allow for thumbs. This may be OK for someone on cable who can check out everything pretty fast, but people like me who have to use a 3.5K/sec dialup couldn't possibly look at every post. It takes about 30 seconds to bring this thread up, let alone an image as well. And do people really want e-mail notifications when people comment on an image they've commented on? Also, the number of viewings in a forum wouldn't be worth it. As a proportion of the total Rendo community, a very small fraction use the forums. Bryce has perhaps about 100 posting members at any one time (my estimate), which is what - less than 1% of the total Brycers? In fact, I'll modify my first statement. I think a forum would be really bad. I wouldn't use it myself, because of the reasons I've outlined above and also because of the way it doesn't fit in with the rest of the site. The mechanism for commenting is already there. It just needs a slight tweak. I don't see the point of ignoring this and trying to make a forum do what the galleries already do.

The reason I thought of a WIP forum is because some members don't like people posting there images in whatever particular forum. I thought that a multi application, WIP forum would include ideas from all artists from various apps and a larger cross section of ideas about composition and POV, etc. All you would have to do is state which app you are using for people from that app to comment on technique, and artists from what ever background giving critiques on style and composition. Catlin

Tuttle what about a WIP forum where you post thumbs with a link to the image in the main galleries. Would that not be easier to use on dial up conections? Catlin

I thought a forum might be better because the specific forums (especially the Poser forum) end up many "Look at what I did with the latest fad..." or questions about "How do I make a reflection" or "How do I conform clothes?" or the "Where can I find?" quest for freebies or products.....most of this is aside from helping people develop their skills. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it. It just isn't very helpful for the person trying to improve their graphics. If such a forum was created, someone really needs to make a banner with the artist/troll theme....that seems irresitable somehow. I think this falls under the heading of nothing will make everyone happy. Oh well.

Ah, I think there are two things going on here. The WIP and the finished picture. I think a WIP forum would be a good idea, as these are not finished works and therefore don't really belong in the galleries. I was talking about the finished works only, which I think should go in the galleries. Personally I don't post WIPs (maybe I should ;)) but I do think people who do would benefit from a forum. But for finished pieces, my vote is for either an flag / icon or a gallery genre.

Great idea tuttle, you have my support.

Sorry, but I still would have to go with a critique forum, not a gallery genre, although I still wouldn't mind an icon and/or text in the comment box of people who wanted a certain type of comment. Believe me, critique forums do get traffic. Then after your pic has been critiqued to death, you can always post in the gallery. I really do think that the line should not be blurred in the galleries as to what wants to be critiqued and what people think should be critiqued. There is enough of that already. Let us not forget as well Tuttle, that changes made here affect everyone, so the question is not whether you would use such a forum, the question is, would people use it in general...

Course, honestly, I still don't see why one can't just request in bold letters, which seems to work very well, what they want their comments to be...

ShadowWind

BTW, the gallery is not inherently set up for this. On the contrary. The gallery commenting system doesn't allow for two way communication and honestly most people just comment and never go back. I would venture to say that the comment system was designed for some small suggestions, not threads on how the art can be improved. If I wanted critique, I'd want to have an open forum which I could interact with those that are critiquing me, find out why they thought this or that was wrong, discuss how I could make it better, etc. It's what goes on in the individual forums right now. The other advantage to a forum is that other people can read through it and learn from what is said about other people's images. To use a previous example, if someone said to you or whoever about the flickering candle there, another artist who may not have known that would also learn from it, rather than going to your gallery to see the comment made.

Again, this is something for everyone we are discussing, not just one or two artists personal preference. Honestly, I'd suggest they do some market research before any decision is made either way...

Lets melt all these constructive ideas into a solid concept
Critique Forum

critique genre [this is optional and just a suggestion]

a. artwork to be critiqued are posted under this genre

b. when artwork is finished with its critique artist can use the gallery edit function to place artwork in its appropriate genre

a thumbnail of the critique image is posted in a thread with a link to the actual Image. No Images posted within the thread. The thumbnail will give members an idea of the image to be critiqued - the thread to the gallery image will keep the Forum from being bogged down
Critiques are for Renderosity Gallery Images Only
to avoid links to images off-site that may violate Renderosity's TOS
If your image has nudity it must be stated in the thread subject line
All images to be critiqued must follow the TOS
All members who offer critiques must follow the TOS [no trolling allowed]
Only constructive critiques of artwork will be permitted.

a. Forum will be tightly monitored [any trolling comments will be deleted]

b. This does not mean you have to like the artwork however you do have to be considerate and constructive in your comments.

Comments will be directed towards artwork This will not be a place for members to voice their non-art views ie: going off on a political tangent

a. Critiquing artwork objectively using the Seven Elements of Art: value, line, shape, form, color, space/perspective and texture.

Group of members who would like to help out with the forum to keep the forum on track.
We can have a backroom:

a. Art Vocabulary Terms
one reason members do not critique art is that they are unsure of the art terms
below is Renderositys Graphic Dictionary more terms can be added
[http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewLink=423]

b. How To guides on critiquing artwork
Either off-site links to critiquing artwork or members can write their own Art Critique tutorials

Ok - this is a starting place. Let me know what you think :)
ladynimue

Seems reasonable to me. I don't think it has to be limited to WIP (which ladynimue did not say but was mentioned earlier in the thread). Whether or not the graphic is changed is always up to the artist, and their creative choices should be respected whether or not we agree with them. It could be an opportunity for the Renderosity galleries to mature in its art without denying beginners a place to get started. But perhaps before the formation of the forum, there could be sn invitation to discuss this on the other forums. I don't know how representative the people on this thread are of general feelings about this. There may be no interest. There may be a lot of interest. It's hard to tell. I have to say that all the suggestions to add click boxes, and flags, and filtering on the gallery overlook the fact that we can already do much of this now. For example, we can filter on the gallery...by category, by genre, by what's new, by artists we prefer. I would rather we didn't get bogged down in making choices that are redundancies in a system rather than actually making an improvement in it. You can add all the redundancies you want but the more you add, the less likely the general viewer is to use them. Keep it simple is the best rule almost always.

How about this Dee? We don't have a critique genre, but all pictures are uploaded to the standard gallery genres wherever they would be. Then if you want extra critique, you can post a link/thumbnail into the critique forum to get people to critique your work. BTW, thumbnails in the critique forum really aren't going to do much good unless programming can find a way to include the thumbnail in the thread list rather than inside the thread, because you will still have to open each thread to see what the picture is.

I'll go with whatever the majority wants, but a critique genre in the galleries causing lots of trouble for both people who want it and people who don't want it (but some person thinks they do). I still remember comments that people should go back to beginner, which can be disheartening. I can just imagine what this will bring.

I'm all for everything in your list but the actual class distinction in the gallery of critique or not (even an icon in the comment box to remind people that this is a critiqued image).

I agree with dialyn, that this should be expanded to the people in the galleries so they can give their comments rather than a few of us making the decision for them.

ShadowWind

Ok - how about this caveat :) Critiques of the images in the Critique Forum are to be made within the "Critique Forum Image Thread Only"- Not within the Gallery Comment Section This will eliminate the need for a critique genre, as well as not creating additional gallery comments (which may or may not pretain to the image once the work is critiqued and the image re-edited). As to the thumbnails and link to the image (as mentioned above by catlin_mc) - I still think this is the best way to go. If you spilt your screen (opening a window with the Image and window in the Critique Forum) You can still view the image, yet still comment within the Critique Forum :) ladynimue

Sounds like a plan to me ladynimue...

Sounds good to me too ladynimue, I would vote for it...

Thanks everyone - Renderosity appreciates your feedback :) ladynimue

This sounds fine, but there is still the problem that people on dial-up couldn't view every thread in order to see the thumb (unless they have a lot of spare time :)). For me to open every thread on a forum page would take about 20 minutes of loading time - no joke! Unless there could be a way of displaying thumbs against forum posts without having to enter the thread (it must be pretty easy?) then with the best will in the world, it would be no use to people with slow connections. <:|

Well, I posted an image yesterday asking for "real" feedback and I was pleasantly surprised that people are taking the time to really look at the image. It's clear that some people had improvements in mind but would probably have been too polite to write them unless they had been specifically asked. A few said the image was OK as it was, but this is just as useful because that's their true opinion rather than them trying to be polite. So I do think that whatever method used to get critique will be of huge benefit to those people who use it. I just hope that if it is a forum it will (a) get enough exposure to warrant its existence (b) take care of the bandwidth problem for users with slow connections. :)

Does this thread eat posts or something? That's 3 times I've got an ebot and when I turn up there's nothing here! 8

Hi Tuttle, That happens when someone posts a message and then deletes it :) ladynimue

i just read a few of the comments here only because im on my break and dont have time to read it all (hmmmm sounds like gallery viewing ) but yeah anyways.....i really like the idea of an option to tell the viewer ....hey ....give it to me straight.....if i were to see that option on someones work....im more than willing to comment on it.....but i dont because of the so called artist cant take some critizism ...which is the first rule thats broken that an artist can do ...... not accept realistic improving feed back.....but id like to take it a further step......and have and option for hey give it to me straight.....and have another even more honest option saying...hey give me your best and ugliest shot where you can say what ever your hearts desire......honestly....for me.....id love to have some one say ......man this is crap......and thats it.....nothing more ......i would not get mad at all over a comment like that......i encourage it....but dont get me wrong...i love the other comments too.....but i would love to invite any so called troll to comment on my pics HOWEVER YOU WISH TO without ristrictions....heck you can even say something that doesnt say anything about the ppic and iwouldnt care.....cause i appreciate the time they took to write alittle comment on my pic.....so in case anyone wants to test me on that...be my guest......but its a really good idea and im for implementing it.....later breaks over.....

I think that if all moderators put a thread in their particular forum then people from all of Renderosity would see that this is now happenning and could decide whether or not to put their wips into a critique forum. Catlin

Ye Gads WHips --- Oh Sorry that was wips -- Whew - You had me going for a bit :) As we are in the middle of a huge debate on the gallery uploads - perhaps it would be best to keep this thread low-key - at least until this weekend [when the gallery upload poll will be finished] I do however, appreciate everyone's thoughtful and constructive comments. Keep em coming :) ladynimue

I think that this is a case of putting the people together that belong together and keep it palatable for everyone. If you want trollish crits, go to the trolls. If you want constructive crits on specific parts of your work, ask for that. For example, if your intention is technical, say so. If your intent is more subjective, then make that known. For example, a question: "I want this effect, have I acheived it?, and if not, what can I do to get there?, will automatically attract the people who know the most about the effect you are trying to acheive.
Incorporate this into the gallery that is already the correct gallery of the work, and that way you've already gotten someone's attention, they know the program, they know the genre, etc.
Renderosity could merely supply a generic guide box for submitting work/feedback that lets the viewer know what is expected. We could post an image and fill out what we want, then a generic reply box would allow people who want to crit to fill out boxes that address the basics and then fill out the boxes that go to the intention of the artist. This way, mostly helpful information will go to those who ask for specific feedback and would be crit people would have a guide that prevents obvious bashing or undue vague comments.

I realize that people are looking for valuable comments and critique on their work.. I long ago discovered that renderosity is just not really the place for that sort of thing, for me anyway. It's just frowned upon, no matter how much the artist seems to be seeking critique. I have also found, through experience, that opening up a piece to an "unknown" audience doesn't really elicit much valuable commentary anyway. You have no idea where the comments are coming from.. 10 years in traditional art? 5 years in 3D? 2 months of porn surfing? Who knows? Without knowing your audience, and without your audience at least having a clue about where you are, the critique is rather blind. For people seeking real, valuable critique on their work, I recommend finding people whose work you admire and asking for some critique. You may not get it.. it may be a one-time only thing.. it may be ongoing. I was lucky enough to get an email from an artist whose work I admire and we have been exchanging our views on each other's work for months now.. I feel as if I have improved quite a bit as a result. I think critique is best directed or grounded in some sort of minor rule framework.. I liked the critique sessions in my pencil classes, as painful as they were sometimes. But they were focused and directed by a "known".. a teacher with years of art experience, and perpetuated by those interested in the same subject and working on many of the same things. Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded. I have been thinking about this critique thing for quite some time, and have even toyed with the idea of starting a real critique group. I could be way off base on my ideas.. just sort of throwing them out there.

Kiera - I fully see what you're saying, and I've said similar things in the past. It does make a difference who is commenting and from what background, but we can always choose to ignore comments that we don't think are valid. For instance, for my images I purposely have shadows and highlights that don't conform to any obvious light source, simply because it's my style. I might have sun from a cloudy sky, for instance, or shadows going one way and the light rays another. So when somebody comments that my lighting is "wrong" I can appreciate what they're saying, and I'm grateful they took the time to comment, but I don't look on it as something to correct because it was intentional. But to qualify what I just said (i.e. sort of contradict it!), if Boris Vallejo or Jim Burns turned up and commented that my lighting was "wrong" then that I'd think "OK, my lighting's wrong", no questions! So yes, in the extreme it can be difficult to know which comments to take notice of and which to ignore, but I think in the most part it is fairly easy to sift out the really useful criticism. Also, on many occasions I've had comments from "less experienced" artists that struck a chord and really helped me out. And that's not to say criticism has to be negative, or point out faults. It's perfectly valid for a person to say "great image", as long as they really mean it! "Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded." You think that's long winded? I guess you haven't visited Forum News recently... ;) lol!

I often tell people to ignore comments they really disagree with, but that is subjective also.. I am not saying that making rosity more critique friendly is a futile endeavor.. I think it is a good idea. I am basically just cautioning people to carefully evaluate the feedback they get.

INteresting idea, sounds like a WIP forum/gallery.

Just an idea I get the most honest feedback from the chatroom. they will either post it in your comments, or tell you directly in the chatroom. Also, when I look at someones image, and see something a little off, I will IM them instead of posting in their comments. I do this because others will read the comments, and it immediately points out the flaws to others. I have noticed (at least on my images) that it sets a trend for a downward spiraling of negative feedback. After a while it gets repetative, and sometimes downright ugly. A little consideration among members would eliminate the need for the checkbox or a critique forum. anyway, I do still post comments and give excellents. Artwork can still be excellent - even with technical flaws. It's ll about how the image makes me feel when I see it.

I know that I'm jumping in late here but I would love this site to have a Critique Forum. If it worked along the lines of that ladynimue stipulated above, it would be excellent. I've suggested it here before but only ever got the answer, "Try using the Art Theory forum" so it's wonderful to think the idea might be taken seriously at long last. After all, isn't the Art Theory forum for discussing theories about art? Just think, an art site with a forum for artists to critique art...it's radical but it might just work ;-)

Forum: Community Center

Subject: Give It To Me Straight - An Idea... views welcome