Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12375&Form.ShowMessage=1234710

Could be some good imagery in that genre.

Yes, but it would be exclusive to one minor religion (Christianity is not the dominant religion on this planet). Images of Krishna and Buddha strengthen many people... but a "biblical" forum wouldn't be a proper home for them. There is a strong pagan community and I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't be the least bit comfortable with either the ancient Greek gods or the current Wiccan goddesses wedged in with Jesus and Mary and all the saints. Good religious imagery hasn't been limited to cathedral art: a neolithic structure at dawn or painted cave wall undoubtedly awed our forebears as much as the Sistine Chapel ceiling does now. Establishing a forum for biblical art alone, at the expense of the other religious traditions, is something that I can't countenance. It is discriminatory. Carolly

Thanks Carolly, I couldn't have said it better myself. (goes back to working on another goddess image)

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

Ok so call it a religious art forum/catagory then. I tend to be more Pagan than Christian, ( I was a member of the O.T.O. I believe all religions are valid myself. ), so dont yell at me to much for saying Greek & Roman gods and dont forget Egyptian are more in the realm of fantasy art in this day and age. But anyway I`ve been toying with the idea of doing biblical art, in a 20th century setting, it may turn out being pretty irreverent by christian standards though. For any who understand 93

TTTT, a "spiritual" forum (whether Biblical or Hindu or Buddhist or whatever) might make for a nice balance around here.

I love religious art, regardless of the religion involved, and I would welcome such a forum, but it would have to be open to art of every religion. It would really be a nice idea, though.

---

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

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OK I am confused, and maybe this thread demonstrates how easily eyes and minds get confused when one even approaches the word christian, I read EricofSD comment as merely suggesting that there is a good source of images in the Christian ideas, then there is a group that is starting on yahoo for those who want to look into it....how did this get discriminatory, when is just mentioning one religion as opposed to many become discriminatory?...we have forums for poser that forum limits and therefore discriminates against other programs....so there are forums for bryce and vue as a sufficient group interested in these programs wanted to discriminate against other programs and wanted to "focus" or limit discussions to that particular program....now poser people can come in and learn about vue etc...that means that the forums though they discriminate in their discussions, are open to all participants.... Why would there be this defensive and very biased reaction to the very mention of christian images? Why would it not be like photography, or in terms of images a genre which can be "participated in" by many other people of other religious views...what stops a Moslem from making a christian image?...what stops a Christian from making a Hindu image?...not love for their neighbor that is for sure.... I am totally amazed at how discriminatory, biased and prejudiced people of "religion" appear...notice I say appear, like in being percieved. What are we, as human beings, afraid of in terms of different religious ideas, images and prayers?...that we might be converted....that we are so insecure in our own religious views that we might be criticized?....I ask these questions only to try to clear the air and suggest that it is no big deal if a group of christians want to make christian pictures, just like it is no big deal if moslems or hindu or pagans do...we each have the choice, we each take the risks associated with our choices... I will jump down from my soapbox and will ask people to please re-read the first post....where does that post seem to say ...anything about limiting participation in any way to "christians"????

I find it interesting, Carolly, that you refer to Christianity as a "minor religion." Can you provide us with statistics to back up that statement? Here are two websites that report Christianity as being the largest religion on the planet. First, a Christian website: http://www.globalchristianity.org/index.htm Now, a nonChristian website: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/stats.html Given this data, it is likely that a large proportion of Renderosity's viewers are Christians. It seems natural to allow them a forum to express their faith with others that enjoy digital artwork as they do. Please note, I am not criticizing or attacking other religions. To respond to you again, Carolly, I would not be the least uncomfortable with a pagan forum. I do not expect I would frequent it much as I expect most pagans would not frequent a Christian forum. In general, I try not to enter into discussions like this. I respect the decisions that others have made concerning their lives and faiths. I do, however, desire for accurate information to be given concerning my faith. Sincerely, Jay Button

Uhm, folks, when you think about it, does it really matter? Or is this going to turn into another "my god is better than your god" squabble? Images of faith are images of faith, period. If it's biblically-based, fine. If it's taken from a Hindu wall carving or a Japanse brush print, those can teach just as much if you allow yourself to think outside that proverbial box. My only concern is that some people will see this as an excuse to post yet more images of the triple-breasted whore of Beblox 6... but hey, I'm sure others will be just as adept at rushing in them nekkid shots of Susanna and the Judges.

Jaybutton, your statistics point to another aspect of the interest in Christian images or biblical related images, the economics of a relatively active group might make on the marketplace, can you imagine competition for the naked viki temple creating a new customers in terms of bilical related props, textures, clothes and of course characters.... Let the competition begin...all you religous folks out there what better way to stock your character files than to begin utilizing the talents of the merchants..... Religion, though a personal choice, is also a fertile source of images, and image related products.....

What about a forum called "Religious Art" or "Spirituality" ? I'd love to have a place to put my religious art....and I do Christian as well as Pagan images. Right now, there isn't a place to post them so that others interested in the same subjects can easily find them, is there?

Anyone interested in stats should go to adherents.com where one can be regaled by "over 41,000 adherent statistics and religious geography citations" on who believes what. The sub ject of the original post is "about a biblical art forum," so be definition, that means Christian. The Yahoo group references is described as being about "Christian / Biblical 3d art" as well. So, that is the original idea as it was expressed. Other people have suggested a more ecumenical religious/spiritual forum. That's another idea that simply expands EricofSD's original. As ideas, they're both fine. I agree that there are certainly some beautiful images which have been inspired by religious thought and devotion and it would be nice to see some more of them here. I don't know that having a special forum fr this art is necessarily a good idea however. In terms of precedent, none of the other forums are focused on one particular artistic theme. They may focus on a program or a genre, such as comics, but not on a theme. That is not my main concern though. Religion is a controversial and sensitive thing with many people. I think we can already see the signs of yet another contentious Rendo-War. I don't see the compelling necessity of having a forum to focus those disagreements. Perhaps I'm being paranoid in envisioning charges of blasphemy being hurled back and corth, accusations of impure doctrine and the Satanic Verses in 3D, but... Nothing is preventing anyone from posting religious images or discussing religious art in the Poser or other forums here now, so I guess my question is why go there?

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=367893&Start=1&Artist=Penguinisto&ByArtist=Yes

Hrm - I put an image in the religion portion of the Poser gallery (link), and the young lady in it is bare from the waist up... nudity is not anathema to Christianity (anyone who has had to sit through classical art really ought to know this by now...) I'm with Joey though... this "my gawd can beat up yer gawd" routine is stupid, and uncalled for in an artists' forum. Many perfectly Christian folks through the ages have created wonderful works depicting greco-roman mythology and beyond. Besides, there are a LOT of hindu erotic art works that would be TOS'ed right out of Renderosity, but have a perfect home in almost any competent museum. As for props, PWFW is packed with biblical props, as well as quite a few other more exotic props for those who feel like creating your own religion if you wish. /P

Well, yes, I can imagine some might choose to explore the more erotic aspects of the Old Testament, either as legitimate artistic effrts or justr to tick off the more conservative Christian brethern and sisteren. "triple-breasted whore of Beblox 6" There is such a religion? And where does one join?

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Why not just name it a "spiritual" gallery? /P

I think that people who want to look at religious or spiritual, or biblical artwork would rather work together, no different than program type forums. Art is what unifies us, not divides us. As artists we also deal with the fine line between artistic nudity/erotic art/pornography...this touches on some very basic emotions regarding artistic freedom. Artists want to practice their art, whether that be fantasy, landscape, abstract or religious art. It is not the religious standard that should be applied but an agreed upon artistic standard, and we may not be the ones that agree on the standard, it is likely going to be the site adminstration which sets the TOS. There is not a lot of religious art exhibited in the galleries or the forum, not when compared to a lot of other stuff.... As artists we should be less prohibitive of any group wanting to focus on any particular art form or genre, the more people who are interested in our programs the more we are going to gain from the investment each group makes in their particular form of expression. Certainly as a rather sophisticated group of artists we can establish guidelines on how to discriminate wisely, how to focus on the art aspects of Christian art or any other kind of religeous or spiritual art....and establish limits on the types of discussions....sticking to art rather than statements which would or could be construed as criticising one belief from another....

I think a biblical or spritual art gallery would be great EricofSD. I am a Christian...not a church goer....but a Christian nevertheless. At the same time, I respect and honor all religious faiths. For me there is one God who fathered all peoples and all faiths. And I don't believe he favors one child over the other :) I've only been offended by a few works of art....those whose sole purpose appears to be to try and dengrate a faith or belief. Everyone has a right to interpret things the way they want, but if a biblical gallery is set up, and rules are set for what can be in it, I would hope that any type of art denegrating any religion would be prohibited. This shouldn't offend those who want to create that type of art as there are other places where they can do so.

Any forum or section of this type should include all. Remember tho "all," means just that. No mutually exclusive religion or spiritual ideology. This would truly need to be all inclusive. It should not be designated as "Biblical" anything. This forum is representative of all peoples, not just those who believe in the Bible. There are probably even some Atheists and agnostics here.There could be Pagans, Wiccans, maybe some Buddhists, too. Who knows? How about Mythological tales? How about Native American beliefs? I think you get my drift. Any specific label, by its' nature,creates certain limits. In art we don't want to limit the artists means of self expression. Of course, we don't want to go against the TOS, either. Artnik gets off soapbox for the day... (maybe)

So artnik, if there are not enough to support another group, say Moslem or Islam, and there are sufficient numbers to support a Christian theme, why should the Christian group be prohibited from a forum or gallery to support their interests? Why would there be any predjudice to any other group to gather enough members to support their own "theme" whether that is religious or relates to a specific program. It is the art and the use of programs which has been the unifying aspect. The idea is narrow the scope and number of messages for specific areas, and in terms of bias or prejudice toward any religion I just do not see it. If there are enough people to support a new group let other groups form, a community does not zone off churches or prohibits them from opening up, the more the merrier. The reaction to this is an opportunity to think.....invitation to join in rather than a prohibition from supporting an area of interest. People seem to find it easier to talk about freedom of expression than actually allowing someone or some group the room to express themselves within a community environment. What is the problem, expect pornography to be exhibited in a biblical or christian group? If it relates to the Bible, could there not be a verse that is interpreted by a Buddhist as an image? Emotional reactions are very difficult to articulate, but to operate as a free community we must articulate the dangers and the benefits....I see no danger to this group of artists to allow a group to form around christian or biblical themes?...Sandoppe has a very good suggestion to prohibit images that would be denegrating "any" religion (I am supposing the idea is comments that apply to either christian or other religeous groups.

Lorraine , there already is a catagory for religious and spiritual posting. Why do we need to have one for just biblical renders ? And for that matter what bible are we talking about ?? And when we say christains are we taking catholics and later day saints? were do we draw that line at?? The more we draw that line the more we exclude others from expressing there spiritual beliefs. This is a global comunity for all religious beliefs not just one small branch of it.

why should the Christian group be prohibited from a forum or gallery to support their interests? Nothing, I guess. But how Christian is it to turn away everyone else? I mean, if it starts out "Christian" and someone posts a Jewish image, is it gonna get the boot? If so, why? Nothing wrong with Christian imagery, not at all. But I can also look at a scroll illustrated by a Buddhist monk and see something that will deepen my own inner sense of spirituality. The fact that it's not Christian is irrelevant. What's behind it to teach me something about life and spirituality is.

Tasquah, your argument ignores the fact that they have divided the community into poser, vue, bryce and then created sub categories for the art genres. Why do we have to have a forum for just poser or for bryce? Doesn't that divide the community of 3d artists, are we now saying that poser artists might be divided further into a smaller group? ...the reverse is true, as the communtiy gets bigger we create more specific groups because there are people who support these forms, fractals, etc. The real question is whether there is a group within the group...as you point out there is a general category, the question is more focused: if there is a group which would support a smaller category called Christian or biblical art, why not allow a group to form?.... I am surprised at the level of bias that seems to be exhibited, bias which is argued exists because it is somehow unfair to allow fractal artists to have their own forum and gallery, but if someone wishes to support a sub-category called "christian" or biblical...then this is somehow creating a new prejudice.... To answer your question if you can differentiate between catholic and christian art let me know..I suspect if there was a large enough group for Latter Day Saints they would categorize themselves as Christian rather than Buddhist..but what is really telling is the reasons given here.... I would expect there to be arguments relating to 1. the limited resources that are available, whether adding another forum would be econominal feasible; 2. Whether there is enough manpower to manage another group, moderators etc. ...3. Whether there is a large enough group to justify the new category.... But NO...none of this is argued...take a look at the biggest complaint....that somehow it would offend the non-christians...good grief....are you telling me that it is ok to put viki up with her genitals exposed and it would be somehow more offensive to have "biblical" or "christian" images or people "gasp" talking about creating biblical or christian art..... Where is the artistic freedom in that?...I think the evidence seems to support the notion that people are not as "broad minded" as they like to think they are....this is a world wide community, I simply am surprised that there is a tendency to ignore the practical considerations as soon as "christian or biblical" are used in a sentence....it is as if they should not be ever mentioned, even though religious themes are a fertile source for images.

I agree with Lorraine and find it interesting that there is such a need for inclusion of all religious beliefs and even the absence of religious beliefs in any such proposal. That said, I don't think that this is the place to debate religion. Its a place to share art and artistic techniques. One of my individual uses for Poser and other computer graphic applications is Biblical art. I have used art from Poser, etc. for teaching classes to teens, illustrating scripture (Bible), providing illustration to accompany singing in a worship assembly. I would love to see a place (be it here or elsewhere) that allows sharing of images, models, and ideas for such use. To answer the question, sounds like a good idea.

Err, guys? The "all inclusive" argument doesn't (IMHO) wash, mostly becuase by their very nature we exclude certain aspects or art by categorizing them. Folks who want Pagan or Wiccan images should form up a specific group as well - this allows those of us who get into such imagery to easily locate 'em. Same with Goth/Vampirism/Satanism/Etc, so that those who worship the dark side of religion can get their eyes fed without havbing to wade through all those do-gooder images to get there. Not sure about the Quran or the Torah, since there is a pretty heavy prohibition on idols or imagery that depicts humans or "God's Creatures", as it were... early Jewish and Muslim houses, even palaces, bear this out (though I would suppose that abstracts, patterns, cityscapes, and fractals are cool, since they don't focus on a particular individual or critter.) As you can see, things can get real complex, real quickly. Therefore, perhaps a prioritization is in order. Before anyone accuses me of having an alterior motive here, look at my gallery - I've rendered a wide variety of subjects, and have no real preference for any single subject.(and no, I'm not just trying to blatantly advertise, either... I just don't want to see someone accuse me of having motives here.) Done looking? Good - now, let's split the whole religious thing into four categories: Scriptural, Oriental Religions, Spiritual, and Darkness. The first, Scriptural, is pretty obvious, being Judeo-Christian, and even Quranic if someone is so inclined.IOW, it's based on the books that are read by the top two religions of folks in these fora, and due to similarity Judaism is included, since there would be no massive emotional conflict here. And yeah, anything in R'osity's TOS is allowed, from King David getting the hots for Bathsheba's nude body, to the presentation of John The Baptists' head on a platter (or perhaps Salome's erotic dance that brought about the whole beheading in the first place), Lilith's Refusal, The Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse, Joshua opening up the whoopass on Jericho, you name it... as long as there's a reference in one of the three books (Bible, Torah, Quran), and it don't violate the R'osity TOS, go for it. The second, Oriental Religions, encompasses Buddhism, Shinto, etc etc etc. Polynesian religions would work here as well.As long as it refers to religious text and teachings of the Far East, go for it. The third, Spiritual, can encompass anything having to do with Paganism, Wicca, Druidic Ritual, Celts, or any positive ancient or new age form of non-mainstream religion. The last one, Darkness, is so that the Satanists, Cthuluists, Black Mages, Goths, etc etc etc... can play nice with the Christians on the site - dump as much evil as you can shit out without violating the R'osity TOS onto this category... (for those who cannot abide by the R'osity TOS and really feel the need to make some evil renders - get thee to Renderotica where the restrictions are pretty much limited to not doing kiddie porn.) "Aww man - four categories!?" Look at it this way - they're just database queries, nothing more. If you don't like one, don't go there. If you like one, enjoy it. "Aww, man... where's MY religion/Atheism?" Err, Atheism is the explicit denial of a supernatural, so going to a religious gallery in the first place is kinda antithetical, yes? But, for those who feel left out, or those who think they can actually whomp out a render showcasing atheism (this I gotta see), get enough people together and petition for your category to be added... There's a reason there is no "The GIMP" forum around here, and the same logic should apply to any gallery added as well - if there's enough of a demand for it, add it, but don't go nuts trying to make it more than it is. The four I outlines work perfectly, and may even stimulate some to rise to the challenge they present - after all, how do you make a satanic render as evil as possible without violating the TOS? Have you ever done a render based on Shinto legend? After all, a lot of the Far East style of artwork, esp. teh religious ones, simply kick ass IMHO... I wonder how many would be moved to turn a near-empty category into inspiration that would fit within the confines of that gallery? HTH a little... /P

Sounds like a bad idea to me. The Yahoo group is an appriopriate gathering place for this, and has already been established (or is about to). I hate to see Renderosity get segmented on the basis of religious belief, or lack of it. And, in respect to other religions, you can't establish a Christians only gallery/forum without doing the same for other religious groups without being guilty of discrimination. No one is stopping you from creating religious art, or discussing it in the Yahoo group, but it could be perceived as an advocation of a certain point of view if a special case is made for Christians and no one else on this website which has shared usage by a great number of people with widely varying beliefs.

I agree with the approach Penguinisto is suggesting because it actually allows for growth. We are already looking at the limitation of images and I suspect that has to do with the growth that has occurred and the need to conserve resources. On the other hand, more interest seems to indicate more stuff to be sold....more people jumping in the model creating freeby cycle... The categories should be considered in terms of growth a good thing....it means we have people thinking in terms of this being the place to come for a great number of reasons, one being that it is THE place to learn, share and feel welcome....and by the way contact talented artists who can create many different types of images.... It seems like put up a sign on their picnic table and join in....

Err, this is a privately-owned website - they can do what they will without fear of litigation (that, and I never mentioned a "Christians only" gallery... where'd that come from?) Incidentally, people are already segmented on belief/non-belief, as well as between beliefs... denying this certainly won't make it go away. Me, I prefer to celebrate those differences, since I enjoy seeing pagan renders as well as far-east religious art. As for a forum? bah - they won't give me a GIMP forum so I'm gonna be a bastard and say "no" to any forum based on specific genre of artwork :p PS: I thought there was already a fractals category? Lord knows I contributed to it once... /P

"I am surprised at the level of bias that seems to be exhibited" Its hardly being bias to try to encompass a bigger group than one small group Lorraine. I have no problums about christain images except for when the portray pain and suffering. If you want to compare hours spent studying religion and religious art i am willing to bet you would lose. You want to do it on yahoo be my guest and more power to you. You want to do it here and have your own gallery and form , I will speak up for all relegions not just one.

Okay, color me confused. Spirituality is spirituality, okay? Does it matter where it comes from? I'd prefer to think of this as a way for people to share with each other, not throw up a few more walls. Sorry, this really confounds me. If someone posted a wiccan image in a christian gallery, the christians couldn't learn a little something from it in the process? If it's just a place to post some pretty pictures, well, heck, what's the point then? We have a gallery already. But I was sorta under the impression this was something about spirituality, not "see how pretty my render of Jesus is?" Am I missing the concept here? It just all seems a little silly. But oh well, my god can beat up your god, and that's that. :P~~~~~

Interesting side note: in college my comparitive religion class went to every single church in owr town and got the membership numbers for each church. They totaled up to more then twice the county population. lol Kinda like 'ositys membership numbers-LOL maby what you want is a religious 'genry' when you upload a pic- but we don't even have a pinup 'genry' so good luck geo

One of the virtues of the internet is that there is something for everyone, from Nazis to nudists and everything in between. In theory, I suppose the idea of 'If we can get enough (insert your favorite here), we should have a forum.' I'm not sure that in the event however it's necessarily a good idea. Certainly, there would be equally valid arguments for an Hispanic art forum,, forums for the German speakers, etc. The Japanese Poser folk have certainly done enough to rate a forum. Since there is already a gallery for spiritual art, I agree that Yahoo or some other venue would be more appropriate for anything else. If it's biased to not want to start dividing things up be religion, then I'm biased. Fractals, photography, Poser, Vue, pin-ups fine. When it comes to grouping based on religious belief, race gender, nationality, etc., I'm sorr, I just don't dig that idea. The other categories here are based soley on artistic interest and I think that is as it should be. If people of different faiths can't share and learn in one religious/spiritual art forum here, then this is merely another reflection of the divisions that continue to afflict the world from Northern Ireland to the Middle East and that has gotten really old in more ways than one. BTW Peng, you left out a small area in your categories, Africa, but I suppose that gets lumped in with pagan, non-mainstream. Naked Vicky holding a flaming sword, how many MilKids can dance on the head of a pin, born again Mike railing against BVH dancing Posettes, Southern Baptist Don commanding Judy to submit to him, Dork cavorting in Paradise with 70 vigin Dinas as the rattlesnake connives with Eve and Vicky 3 debates the yin and yang of sexuality with her male side. Mother of God.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Tasquah, apparently you felt I made a comment directed at you, that is not the case, however, the defensive reaction is what started me wondering on this thread. ...There was never a request made on the basis of what was better or even what was more important....it appeared to be a rather benign comment.... If you have taken time to study religion or religious art, it is likely something that you did for yourself, I am not going to debate who spent more hours, it is irrelevant to the discussion. Certainly you are entitled to your opinion. In the spirit of debate I have attempted to distinguish the "emotional" from the "analytical" in terms of reasons, I see no point in moving from that comparison. There are perfectly good reasons why such forums should be added or not added. For those who have no interest in Bryce, they can avoid such discussions by not entering that forum. But for those who do, it is a place to share ideas. I happen to have Bryce and Vue, it is convenient to visit both forums. For those who can see they will, for those who cannot and are blinded by any group's name because of their personal bias about what that group is or represents, they will not. My comments were not about religion, nor were they directed to any person. There was no attempt to prohibit any general involvement, a group being formed does not ipso facto result in one group being favored over the general subject matter, it is a process of focusing information....which we can do analytically....going from the general to the specific....is not a new or novel idea.

There should be no discrimination. Period. Setting up any unique topic gallery establishes a precedent. It puts something on a pedestal. It gives it the official stamp of approval. It gives it value. It excludes, by definition, anything which isn't included. Numbers don't matter. If there aren't as many Hopi Indians to agitate, is their religious tradition less worthy? They won't get a gallery unless they speak up? Oh, too bad. I guess the Quakers or Eastern Orthodox don't count for much either. No voice, no place, no existance. It also creates dissension and anger... as ought to be evidenced by this thread. People used to kill each other because they made the sign of the cross with 3 fingers instead of two, or said the mass in French instead of Latin, or read the bible for themselves. Religious partisans leave a bloody history. If you have a topic gallery for the Christian Bible, you will also need to have topic galleries for cats as opposed to dogs (nyah-nyah-nyah), astronomical art, food photography (let's really dicriminate and say chocolate). You want to get divisive? You haven't seen anything yet! So as an artist, you want a place where your work will be seen in "appropriate" company of similar work... you narrow the topic. Where does it stop? Let's say that you have a bagpiper overlooking a crumbling building, and you place it in the "Celtic" gallery. But then you really want to be seen, so you post it anywhere/everywhere else that is suitable: the "Music" gallery, the "Castles" gallery, the "Wracks and Ruins" gallery, the "History" gallery, the "Ethnic" gallery, the "Costume" gallery, oh, and there are sheep in the background, so you place it in "Farm Animals", too. If he is playing Amazing Grace? By, golly! You can also post it in the "Christian" gallery. Where do you discriminate? By beginning. Carolly

Carolly, there is an argument generally, and most affectionately, referred to as the "open the floodgates" arguement, if one decides to allow this then it would open the floodgates and an overwhelming result is argued... It might be a legitimate argument if once can and does have some evidence that the result would in fact occur...rather than arguing pure speculation. I am not sure anyone would ask for the things you mentioned....I also am not sure providing a forum or a category puts anything up on a pedestal.... I am not sure why anyone would be angry if a category is chosen, that is the real mystery of this thread....

:)

There is always anger when there is a perception that one group is being asked to be treated as a special class, exclusive in nature. You shouldn't be surprised there is some anger. Religion, politics, and sex are historically volatile subject areas. By asking to be treated as a special class, you are setting yourself up as being better than others who don't happen to share your interest or beliefs. If you get beyond your own wants and needs, you might see how this could be viewed by other people who have equal rights to the same special treatment that you are requesting for yourself. To be fair, as hauksdottir pointed out, every one with a special religious bent should have their own forum and not just the Christians. In fact, I'd vote for the lions having one too.

Good idea! I for one could care less how many specialized galleries there are....the more the merrier! :)

I mean, lookit folks - this is such a non-issue... why are you investing all this ego and debate into it? No one was asking to be treated as a special class. No one was asking for discriminatory rights or special privileges. They just want a place to put their renders; where's the harm in that? If there was a shortage of bandwidth, storage, or programming space, then yeah it would be worth a deeper discussion, but R'osity doesn't seem to be suffering from either of the three. Carolly - why does it bother you so much if a bunch of 'Xtians' want to put their pictures in a category that most of the militant atheists and lefties around here would avoid anyway? lmckenzie - yeah, I forgot Africa... in spite of the fact that the majority religions there are currently Christianity and Islam. If enough animists want a gallery, cool - the mechanisms are there to add room, yes? A couple of people wanted to set up a gallery that would likely not be besieged by the usual pablum we all like to call art. Are y'all so intolerant and fixed in your ideologies that you can't grant them a little slice of gallery where they can run off and put up renders most of the dissenters would never look at, let alone care about in teh first place? For such a little request, there sure is a lot of high drama involved. It's as if y'all might accidentally catch religion or something... Step back and calm down already. /P

Carolly, there is an argument generally, and most affectionately, referred to as the "open the floodgates" arguement, if one decides to allow this then it would open the floodgates and an overwhelming result is argued...<< This is referred to in Logic as a "slippery slope argument" I am a Heathen (that's Asatru/Teutonic Paganism)for you unfamiliar folks ;-) and I don't have a problem with a "Christian Art Page" or whatever you want to call it. I like Penguinisto's idea -- for the simple reason, not to "discriminate" or cause a domino effect, but that it would make it easy for people who want to view that type of art, to find. Just as having a category for the Pagans, so they can look at the type of spiritual art they want to look at and not have to wade through all those Jesus's. Kind of like having a "search by Artist" or a "search by Category"....what is wrong with that? I don't consider that in any way "descriminatory". It is not saying that one is any better than the other. It is just setting up categories to make it easier to find. We all "discriminate" on a daily basis, whenever we make a choice about something. It does not necessarily mean it is a bad thing. You want your Jesus? Fine. You don't believe in anything? Fine. You want your Goddess? Fine. You like the dude with the horns and pointy stick? Fine. Just as long as I can have my Freya too.... :-)

Oh, and about that "pie chart".... What the heck would be "other"? Pagans? But they could also fit under "ethno religious" like Asatruars and Celtic Reconstructionists, etc. Why is there a category for Atheists and another for Non-religious? Wouldn't that be kind of the same? and would a Christian consider a Pagan a "non-religious"? I'm not really liking that pie chart. I don't think it is broken down correctly, and there are certainly more than 2% Jews in the world!! and couldn't they also be considered "ethno religious"? (walks away shaking her head....)

I agree the more the merrier.... anyways...who got angry when the Poser forum was created specially for the poser user?...or the Bryce forum...or any of the other forums....I think the key is, "the perception of"...and that perception is built by the eyes of the beholders.......lol.... Believe me I have those little emotional braincells..the ones that start hopping around like jumping beans....and like the jumping bean I tend to conclude that the bean is in fact alive until I learn what really makes them jump....

I'm a Christian by upbringing and a believer in God but not a strong follower of "organized" religion. I'm following with interest this thread because before stumbling across this thread, I was thinking of creating an image or two based on biblical history. After seeing the Yahoo group link, I thought that would be the ideal forum to place them in. As I read along I'm witnessing all sorts prejudices and seeing how sensitive, and insensitive, people can be. I'm trying to view this from everyone's perspective and see the "rightness" in just about everyone's argument. Im seeing just how explosive this issue can be. If you want a "Christian" art forum in Renderosity, then you must allow for forums of all other religious art. Taking into account the enormous amount of space and bandwidth an undertaking like this would take up is prohibitive by any stretch of the imagination. So the answer to the dilemma seems obvious to me, and that is for someone, of any religious denomination, to obtain for themselves a web host and open a public forum to whatever religious art they desire of their own. Why does it have to be here at Renderosity? The art forums here are divided by art program and for good reason, all those sharing the same art package can collaborate within the confines of that particular program and the unique features to that program and how to better use that particular program and explore its limitations. Membership should not be limited to or exclusive of belief systems.

So the answer to the dilemma seems obvious to me, and that is for someone, of any religious denomination, to obtain for themselves a web host and open a public forum to whatever religious art they desire of their own. Why does it have to be here at Renderosity? << That would probably ultimately be the best solution all the way around. That way, the person setting it up would have the freedom both creatively and otherwise to do it however they wanted.

You ALREADY have a place for your images of Jesus-on-a-cross. Isn't this good enough for you????? Or are you afraid that golden images of Buddha, flower-draped Ganesh, or Hopi sunfaces might contaminate the purity of YOUR religious preference? Carolly

"If you want a 'Christian' art forum in Renderosity, then you must allow for forums of all other religious art."

First off the subject was Biblical art. That's not necessarily Christian unless you limit it to the New Testament.

But most importantly the words 'MUST ALLOW' are not true in that other forums do NOT have to be created unless there is a true demand for them meaning enough people would do images to go there. It's a SUBJECT matter not a crusade for Pete's sake.

The arguments presented by those who feel having a Biblical forum is discriminatory are actually suppressive. Intellectual dishonesty in the name of 'fairness'.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=372579

Why ask for a Christian forum? Well when many of us have post Christian based themes, we have been attack with sarcastic comments or vaguer IM's. I myself was commented to by a user to the effect **"Triumphantly dry and amateurish, as religiously themed pics so very often are. Fervently hope *not* to see more biblical art in here."** Than the person rated the picture with the lowest rating available. The rating was given not for the art but, out of their presupposition. So, if we post artwork are we unlike others that we should not to invite ratings or comments?

Yes we could go off site but Osity has a beautiful system of posting and commenting already in place. Why not just ask! You'll never know if she's marry you unless you ask!

As for the religious/spiritual forum hmmm... take a look at the forum by most viewed or by most comment. Last statement is if posting Christian artwork wasn't getting so much backlash, I don't think that this request would have been made.

Please give me a break, oneshot most of us stuck up for you and had nothing but nice words to say about your post. We even made sugestions as to how to make it better. Most of us have recieved the same vulgar comments or worse than what you got and we dont ask for special privlages. Christain themes are NOT getting bashed any more than anyone else has and you are hardly being percicuted. If that was true than it would have been takin down for violating the TOS "Violence" means any depiction of bodily injury to a humanoid model, or any part thereof, or placing a humanoid model in threat of fear of imminent physical harm " I saw 2 posts that could be consitered backlash and out of 21 thats not to shabby in my book.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=383083&Start=1&Artist=Lorraine&ByArtist=Yes

Heres a wonderful christian easter picture by Lorraine and i do not see any bashing in her comments.

I don't think that EricofSD asked the question because he was tired of "backlash". Frankly, the trolls will visit no matter what gallery you're in. If preventing trolls is what you want, you are probably better off not having a gallery identified as "biblical art"! I think EricofSd asked for about the same reason that, not too long ago, someone asked for a Hobbyist gallery. As I recall those who considered themselves "hobbiests" wanted a gallery that best described them and where they would be most comfortable posting their work. For that same reason a "biblical gallery" would be place where those who create strictly biblical images, feel the most comfortable posting them. I would suggest that EricofSD make the request of Rendorosity staff. If they decide it's worth doing, so be it. That was a wonderful image Lorraine :)

WHY, isn't that good enough? Suppose that you get a Bible-only forum (and, yes, that is Christian-only. The Jews read the Torah and the Muslims read the Koran)... what next? 300-plus varieties of Methodists the last I heard and they disagree so strongly that congregations keep on dividing. Baptists? They are pretty darned divisive, too. The evangalicals? I presume at this point that you won't be happy unless you get your own private my-religion-is-better-than-yours gallery. EACH. Religious/Spiritual is inclusive. Maybe you find that threatening? Or maybe, biblical art isn't "spiritual" after all? The word religion is from the Latin religere "to bind together"... by separating into tiny fiefdoms, you are hardly being religious. Besides being allowed to violate the TOS, how much more special treatment do you want? Carolly

Why classify your artwork? Stick to nude or not nude. Religion and beliefs cause more arguments than any other subject. I don't think it would be good to create an area were some people would go to make a point. i.e posting images of the devil etc.. with an argument that it is the devil they worship etc.. I do agree that their is a lot of relgious/spiritual call it what you want art around. When you consider that the original Michealangelo painting in the cistine chapel was censored by another artist coming in and putting clothing on some of the more risky figures. You can see what is and what is not truly accepted. I think there a lots of stunning works out there and to classify it as religous could put some people off.

Just for your info, we have a Christian artist board for any who are interested it is at www.ourexpressions.com We are adding Photopost within the next few days and will have a gallery :) Thanks, Dawn

"Why classify your artwork?" ...One reason is to make it easier to locate in a database, another reason is to make it easier to access for the larger database of customer/consumers. It has nothing to do with "religion" or the prejudices one or more individual might have. What if some of the people responding worked for a marketing company and were told to separate out the Christian market in an area. I am wondering what the responses would be...Oh no cannot do that...certainly a perspective of the marketing manager is developed by the business plan, Christians spend money on specific products more than say a atheist. Within many historical situations, People of a narrow uncompromising perspective perpetrated the violence that tasquah points out to the many humanoid models. History reminds us that we should not forget, so I suspect that there are some "artistic" value to some specific examples of "perspective" related violence. The message being it is and individual awareness that is going to keep these acts from happening again. So I do not by the only reason is because to do something would cause arguments. In general we are consumers of renderosity offerings, we are taking advantage of resources with an economic value. We get to use them for free, so long as we use them within the TOS. Just because this site operates for the moment for free is no guarantee that it will not be forced to charge a fee. But in terms of categories it is merely a data field, or fields, a matter of coding. It is within the individual's own mind where the "resistence" occurs to the request. I am amazed at how much people resist another's persons' freedoms even if those other people do not interfere with any one else. But that is something history seems to record on a variety of scales as being repeated....life is a learning experience........ for now some would say...go away and set up what you want someplace else...there is no room for you here.....that is fine, but this perspective is not motivated (by any stretch of the imagination)by a need to promote free access....

Renderosity is full of anti-Christian phobics like some of the comments above illustrate. I posted some Easter images and got anti-Christian comments that caused me to remove some of my work or re-post it to get rid of the creepy comments. People of other beliefs seem to be intimidated by Christ and Christianity. Rightly so. On further thought, I think a Biblical Art category would be great and the anti-Christian types could more easily avoid what they consider offensive.

My gosh you guys make things harder than they have to be. :) Post in Religious/Spiritual. Unfortunately, regardless of what you believe you're guaranteed to be offended by something or someone in the galleries here. Accept that and wade through the crap to get to what you want to see. Personally I'd rather there not be specific galleries because all that will do is open the doors for anyone who disagrees to post contrary images just to tick off those who do believe in (insert belief here).

...... Kendra

We've had people say that there's too many gallery genres as is, and since Christianity is a religion, I don't see why it can't fit into the Religious/Spiritual genre that we already have. If this is a request for a forum on Biblical Art, then it wouldn't work well for this site. Our forums are categorized by art techniques/software, not by genre. (Well, OT and the Virtual Tavern are oddballs in that regard, but they're release valves as much as anything else. It's like lunch period at school not being a class, but it's still on the schedule.) Cheers!

well said Kendra :)

Lorraine: "anyways...who got angry when the Poser forum was created specially for the poser user?"

Ummm...actually, no one because this site was originally created for the poser user (in fact it was called The Poser Forum!)...lol!

I agree with Kendra and Crescent, there is already a genre for religious/spiritual images...the forums revolve around products and technical matters.

"Oh, and about that "pie chart".... What the heck would be "other"? Pagans?" Slack! ("tee hee hee!", sayeth Spark The Heretic) /P

Spit, it makes no difference if it's "Christian" or "biblical" art, it's exclusive of other religions, plain and simple, and therefore to be fair, you must allocate space for all other religions whether or not there is a demand for it because you cannot assume that there wont be. Its like setting aside space on a small hard drive for only a few programs and then finding out that you need more space because you have acquired more programs. Believe me, the space and bandwidth needed for this type of web site expansion can be expensive considering the number of religions that would be involved. As for it having to be on Renderosity because Osity has a beautiful system of posting and commenting already in place, well, if you had your own web site you can certainly provide the same features if not better than Rendosity. I maintain, the best solution is for someone to acquire a web host and start your very own biblical web gallery. In this way, no one will feel like theyre being force fed someone elses belief system while not providing for the belief systems of others. Heck, I'll even be happy to visit and contribute to it.

"it's exclusive of other religions, plain and simple..." Err, how so, when anyone else can just as easily set up their own gallery subjects? No one of any religion is barred by this proposal from creating a given gallery and posting to it. Sometimes categorization isn't a bad thing... Look at it this way - at least there will be a Poser gallery that is reasonably safe for children to surf to. Also, how are you being "force fed" something you likely won't even surf to? I don't get this part. Also, the door is right there for anyone else who wants to get a group of like-minded afficionadoes to form their own galleries, so there's no real discrimination going on here. If a given gallery subject doesn't stay active, R'osity can ditch it, automatically changing the few images contained within to "general" or something... let the market do it's thing. The coding on it should be fairly easy... and likely automated. Like I said - I don't get the vehemency here. /P

It's "Christian", "biblical" these two adjectives describe a Christian- Judeo belief system. It intrinsically implies a specific religious belief system and thats discriminatory when placed in a secular setting. It is a group of like-minded afficionadoes in a none-like minded setting as far as religion goes.

The reality is, fairness has nothing to do with it, no matter what side of this issue you're on. This is a private website. Renderosity can decide to have one big gallery or 500 specialty galleries called whatever they want them to be called. They own it....they can do with it what they want. This isn't some government operation or some big committee where we all have an equal say and consensus has to be achieved before something can be done. All we can do is "suggest". Discussing the issue adnauseum is a waste of time and energy. Now it seems to me that Crescent (who I believe is a mod here) has said a biblical gallery wouldn't work well here, explained why and suggested that those who have an interest in biblical posting do so in the already available, religous/spiritual gallery. As far as I'm concerned the case is closed. If EricofSD wants to pursue it further, he should do so privately with the admin staff and the president of the company and whoever owns the site and make his case with them because ultimately, they will decide.

The thread was brought up in the back area and none of the mods could see a reason for the Biblical Art gallery or forum. It has nothing to do with which religion was brought up, the religious make-up of the members, the religious beliefs of the mods, etc. There doesn't seem to be a need to break down the religious/spiritual gallery genre any farther (it hasn't gotten unwieldly with the number of images being posted) and we don't do genre forums. People are always welcome to contact the admins and site owners on this issue (or others), but currently we don't see a pressing need for the change. Cheers! Crescent Rendie Mod. (and all around busy-body)

Penguinisto, so what you are saying is that "christian art" or "art created by christians" would be safe for children? Here kids look at this, it is some bloke nailed to a cross and whatch this as this guy sticks him with his spear. I know that sort of image would not be suitable for my kids. Seriously, if you think that it woud be safe how do you intend that it is monitored? Who decides if it is christian enough for posting etc.. I think religious/spiritual is broken down enough. I only believe in one thing and that is me, so if you do get your christian gallaries and forums here on O'sity then I want my own.

Actually, compared to naked Vickies in pseudo-erotic poses doing pseudo-erotic things, yeah... I'd believe it was far safer for children. Also, once you factor in the sheer violence and sadism present on even "network" television, a little historical Roman-style execution is pretty tame by comparison. Or do your children not watch television, either? Incidentally, they aren't "my" christian galleries, since I've shown earlier on that I pretty much post art anywhere that trips my trigger. I'm just wondering why everyone gets all uptight and picky over something no one here would so much as give a second thought to if the proposed title was "Latin American History" or "Sci-Fi Pin-up Art." /P

You're obviously not Jewish or Buddhist or any other religion that isn't Christian, or the reason why it is disturbing would be more clear to you. I think the seven veils would be a great Vicky in the Temple graphic (and what child wouldn't like John the Baptist's head on a platter?)...I suspect there will be as much violence and bawdy sex as one wants dug up in the Old Testament to offset any sweet images from the New (of course the brutalization of Christ and the horrors of Armaggedon are there too but I'm over simplifying due to my lack of education in this area)....but those can be posted anyway. Why the need for the exclusive Bible club??? What will you do then than you can't do now? The Yahoo club seems like it serves your need...why do you need to have religious preferences made here?

Before I begin, let's get one item out of the way. The PTB have spoken, and I'm okay with the outcome. Now, on to the fun: " You're obviously not Jewish or Buddhist or any other religion that isn't Christian, or the reason why it is disturbing would be more clear to you." Err, Pedantic Bastard that I am, I gotta do it: Buddhism wouldn't care by its very precepts, and the Orthodox Jewish tradition requires that no images of people or animals be made. Same rule applies to the stricter adherants of Islam, incidentally. I therefore doubt you'll see either of the two groups offended. Let's admit it though, instead of hiding behind all these fake debating points: It chaps peoples' asses to see those nasty ol' Xtians having a peaceful little place to play. After all, they push their impossible morals on us, so why can't we take the chance to push back on them and teach 'em a lesson!? I mean, really - change the name of the proposed gallery to "Nihilism", and honestly ask yourself if you would've given a damn if it were added, or what other people would think if there were a "Nihilism" category. I'm willing to wager that none of the protesting folk in here would've uttered a single negative word in this thread. All these arguments about "well, they can post here, but not there" make no sense, since otherwise why would anyone have categories at all? Again, y'all just assume too much and rely on knee-jerk responses. Me, I don't care either way - I'm just having fun pointing out the uptight hypocrisy (yes, hypocrisy) of folks protesting a little proposed gallery, but doing so with the same vehemency that a Pentecostal minister would protest a proposed nudie bar on the outskirts of town ;) Kinda makes you wonder why folks are so similar and yet so different... :) /P

Whatever. If we are just arguing to see our words in print, then argue on without me. I find facetious arguments to be nonproductive, and even I recognize bear baiting.

Okay .. I think this thread is dead now. If you want to continue this topic, please take the religous debate to the OT forum. Thank you Lyrra

Thanks lyrra

No prob... it was fun, though... this thread actually gave me a lot of insight. I wasn't baiting, honest... just speaking an opinion as frank as those presented, and hopefully getting folks to sit back and contemplate, as I have done and still do (and if any of it hit home too hard for some of the folks out there, I apologize.) I'll bow out of the thread now, so there's no need to lock it on my account. No harm done, I hope? /P PS: I'd like to propose a Nihilism gallery - can I do that here or in another thread? (KIDDING! I'm KIDDING! :) )