THIS doesnt violate the TOS? [ **link**](http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=20499&ViewImage=2#Image) i had two banner ads pulled.. one because it showed the SILHOUETTE of a woman's back (attached image), it was labelled as 'obscene'. i had a product promo image pulled because it had a render of an UNTEXTURED preteen with white mat settings about 100 pixels tall that looked like a plastic mannequin and was only enclosed to show a size comparison between vicky, the preteen and my Nia character. now im going to exercise some restraint here and not rant about the fact that the all-time hottest selling products at renderosity are morphing labia and female genitalia props (and i even recall seeing a character with a 'morphing anus' - god help me)... and what that says about the average buyer and the state of marketing here. im not commenting on the product, or the creator, at all here. what i am commenting on is that when im browsing through product promos i do not expect to see macro close-ups of female genitalia, nor the illustrated morphs for such genitalia showing the inside of a woman's anatomy or the open, 'stretched' state it would be in were objects inserted. even with the 'nudity' button toggled, this is a bit too much, and belongs in renderotica and not rosity... or in the LEAST in a separate, privately hosted page with a link to it from the product promo with a warning stating the graphical content. everyone here that knows me knows im far from a prude.. but this is just too much even for me... not because of the seemingly irrational and partial application of the TOS when it comes to dealing with 'obscene' content in banner ads, product promos and gallery images (ive seen gallery images get deleted by mods for showing less).. its because i dont want to see this type of thing in the rosity marketplace promos, nor would i want my mom, my kid, or any business contacts seeing something like this in a store that i sell at. racy is one thing.. macro 'money shots' another altogether. what is allowing this going to open the door to?

Yeah .. Not something I want to buy or see in the marketplace really ...

Wow, that is quite shocking. I totally agree with you Blackhearted and Ghostofmacbeth.

I IM'd Clint and asked about this. checked your link and WOW that's ummmm some picture. I thought only Renderotica sold those kinda things. (Goes to get a rag to clean up the soda off the screen and keyboard)

That is disgusting! And Quite shocking! Should be at renderotica not here! WOW! And the girl looks young to me. Sorry but thats going a little to far with the images!

Poser 9 SR3 and 8 sr3
=================
Processor Type: AMD Phenom II 830 Quad-Core
2.80GHz, 4000MHz System Bus, 2MB L2 Cache + 6MB Shared L3 Cache
Hard Drive Size: 1TB
Processor - Clock Speed: 2.8 GHz
Operating System: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Graphics Type: ATI Radeon HD 4200
•ATI Radeon HD 4200 integrated graphics
System Ram: 8GB

Its gone...sorry about that. It slipped past me for sure. Thanks very much for brining this to my attention. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

Thanks clint! boy your fast!

RAther graphic... I don't mind that kind of stuff being sold here, but I think that there should be a link to an image saying "watch out this stuff is REALLY graphic, and some would consier it pornographic" or something of the like... definately better ways than simply popping up a great big shot of everything...

I have to agree..this item would be better offered in Renderotica. It stretches the boundaries of art to obscene and is not within what would I would expect to see at Renderosity.

I think this could have been handled in a more professional manner instead of being brought to attention in the Poser forum.. Isnt that what the merchants forum is for?.. anyway I'm going back to my corner now..lol

Handle every stressful situation like a dog.

If you can't eat it or play with it,

just pee on it and walk away. :-)

....................................................

I wouldnt have to manage my anger

if people would manage their stupidity......

As if the title of the item wasn't enough of a clue for you. BTW I bought it,and it works well. for the purpose I require it. I suppose free thinking is only acceptable in confined terms

cherokee69, The image that was mentioned in Post 1 has been deleted. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

yep saw it be for it was off and it was NASTY lmao

========================================================
Typing Advisory :
Read at your own risk! May cause
dizziness, naseua,drooling, and temporary blindness.
Surgeon General recommends running the txt through a spell checker.

Not the kind of stuff I buy, so I never even looked at it. But as far as Gabriel's promo's go, I have NEVER seen one that I thought was obscene, but instead tasteful to the extreme. While even I draw the line at some things, some of the stuff other folks think of as "obscene" really floors me, especially in a community of artists. Why something like this got thru when Blackhearted's promo ads were pulled is beyond me. Laurie

In calm rational letters, he types: Nasty? But so are products of decaying zombies and obesity morphs but I won't question their right to exist, at Renderostiy or Daz. Why in the year 2003 are we still so freaked out by pictures of genitals? Having done a fair amount of medical illustration involving operations around the "groinal area" (you probably don't want to know) that the product mentioned could have been used for purposes other than porn. Perhaps the ratio would be 10 medical illus. and 3000 would-be pornographers but who cares? It just a picture. What makes the dangling eye-balls and rotting teeth any less gross or objectional? Hoping we can all keep the peace, deci6el

Looking at the title of the offer it would seem to me that everyone who would want to go into this store site would know exactly what was being offered so I doubt most would be that shocked. It's a difficult area because people want to know what they are paying for before they buy not matter what the item is. Besides, if these are the best all time selling products, obviously there are a lot of Renderosity members that want it here.

Its a "conforming genital figure," folks. Who in theior right mind is going to buy it without seeing how well it meets the stated purpose. If you click on the link, what you see is what you should expect. 'The girl looks young...' Again with the guessing ages of 3d models, we just went through that. Is she 18, is she 17-1/2 is she legal in Arizona? If the images disturb you and just knowing that they're there, even though no one if forcing you to look at them then go ahead and take the next logical step demand that such products be banned altogether, start a petition and let's burn the server while we're at it. Just because one completely irrational decision was made to ban the Selyne image is no reason to start around and...Oh never mind. I'm just a little fed up with the government trying to legislate morality to deal with it here. Look at what you want, just don't go looking at stuff likely to ofend you and then run screaming about it. Sorry, I just don't think that's the way we should do things. No doubt im in the minority, but such is life.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

There's nothing obscene about the banner ad in Blackhearted's post. Erotic, perhaps, but very tastefully so. It's not even 1/2 as revealing as ads in your typical glossy magazine, or many on TV. I was really surprised to read that genital products are among the best-selling items here, but (slaps forehead) I shouldn't have been surprised.

The Government shouldn't be trying to dictate morality, sigh. That Selyn banner doesn't look bad to me. Then again, I wasn't outraged by the morphing genital image. Maybe slightly shocked, but no biggie. People like to see what they're buying.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

If DAZ had made Vicky without a tongue to satisfy some strange taboo, I'm sure tongues would be a hot seller too. Found at Renderotica (I only go there to read the articles): US Attorney General Ashcroft is visiting an elementary school. After the typical civics presentation to the class, he announces, "All right, boys and girls, you can all ask me questions now." A young boy named Bobby raises his hand and says, "I have three questions: 1. How did Bush win the election with fewer votes than Gore? 2. Why are you using the USA Patriot Act to limit Americans' civil liberties? 3. Why hasn't the U.S. caught Osama bin Laden yet?" Just then the bell sounds and all the kids run out to the playground. Fifteen minutes later, the kids come back in class and again. Ashcroft says, "I'm sorry we were interrupted by the bell. Now, you can all ask me questions." A young girl named Charlene raises her hand and says, "I have five questions: 1. How did Bush win the election with fewer votes than Gore? 2. Why are you using the USA Patriot Act to limit Americans' civil liberties? 3. Why hasn't the U.S. caught Osama bin Laden yet? 4. Why did the bell go off 20 minutes early? 5. Where's Bobby?

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

it stated "conforming genital figure". what have you been expecting, a hat? ` 2. why go beyond 1st image if you are so grossed about it? 3. most people are born with genitals. v3 doesn't have them (but has fang morph, for eating sallads i guess) - as opposed to michael2, so this is only completing the figure. what's this fuss about?

Ohhhhh, the danger of women*s genitalia ... boys, beware - that can be very addictive. LOL Sorry, but I don't get it why some are so upset about it, really. But then I live in germany and nudity and other things are just natural over here, nothing to call nasty or porn.

Every organisation rests upon a mountain of secrets ~ Julian Assange

I missed the baddie image in question, so I won't comment on that. What shocks ME is that blackhearted' beautiful banner ad (shown in his message) was pulled. And labeling it 'obscene' just staggers belief.

Well, here's my personal thoughts. A lot of the Renderosity staff doesn't consult with others when they approve images. They should start, honestly. I see people who've blurred the genitals out on their figures. I don't, honestly, understand that. Having them /there/ isn't wrong. However, I don't particularly want to see a close up of them. I never looked at the genital set, for the same reason I've never needed the Ulf Penis prop or the Diginitals one, except for maybe on a comission (and that work never got posted here, either). Honestly, it upsets me that we can have naked women with their legs spread suggestively in the galleries, looking very much so 'come have sex with me /now/' but we can't have an erect phallus, and MOST artists are so intimidated they simply crop or censor it out. I find it rather telling that the best selling products are incredibly buxom women and the like... And Blackhearted, there was nothing wrong with your banner. I like it. It's better than the 'V3 Bodies' banner that I see. I don't have a problem with nudity, but a lot of other people do, and having a banner where a rather buxom upper torso is all that's shown... Eh.

Kreations By Khrys

The removed image had "things" sticking out. I saw it when it was first released in the Marketplace. Had to call my wifey to take a look. I won't go into her reaction.

A "morphing anus" is very difficult to find! Maybe we need to return to the "censored" banners again

Stupidity also evolves!

Attached Link: http://womancare.crosswinds.net/anatomy_of_the__vagina.html

"The removed image had "things" sticking out." Whoa, that sounds scary! Just kidding, but really, what were these things? Unless he included some kind of alien morphs, these "things" have names like every other part of the body. Ar we talking labia majora, labia minora, clitoris, clitoral hood, vestibular bulbs etc. It's all just human anatomy, certainly no more evil, mysterious or frightening than the pharynx or any other bodily orifice. Perhaps if we looked at it that way instead of going into cardiac arrest, we'd all be better off.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Things sticking out? Hmm, maybe that was the O.B. morph with different removal cord lengths?

SCNR I better leave ...

Every organisation rests upon a mountain of secrets ~ Julian Assange

We would be, but let's face it. Most of us grew up, probably, in "proper" homes. One simply does not talk about the clitoris in a "proper" home, except in the bedroom, or in the occasional mother-daughter chat. One does not, in the "proper" home, expose their children to nudity. One of my biggest gripes with Renderosity is that the TOS says it's a 'family' site, and yet stuff like this is sold. I have no problem with the female genitalia. I don't particularly care about it, one way or the other. It's there. It serves its purpose, just like the male genitalia does. However, if someone tried to sell 'erection' morphs, which is a naturally occuring state of the male genitals, you know all hell would break loose. But yet, we're supposed to sit here quietly, because it /can/ be used for educational purposes. Not is, can. In that same line of thought, a decent erection set could be used for much the same purpose. And yes, we should return to the censored banners again. I'm sick of being slapped with breasts every time I change the page. It's killing sales on products I might otherwise look at, like the afore mentioned V3 Bodies set. Not all of us are heterosexual males. Not all of us like being bombarded by blatant 'sex sells'.

Kreations By Khrys

Well, the Teen Magazine my daughter is reading (a Teen Magazine that is around since the 50' over here in germany) has several pages with detailed sex education, with photos of nude girls and boys, with a column where teenies can ask question about contraception, sex etc. Over here they start sex education at school in 4th grade (children are aged 9 - 10) - this is nothing unusual over here. Regarding Renderosity: I haven't seen a thing yet that I wouldn't let my daughter look at (except bloody violence). Nudity is ok, she can see it - she sees more nudes at the beaches or the swimbathes over here than she would see on a banner ad or in the galleries.

Every organisation rests upon a mountain of secrets ~ Julian Assange

Oh, forgot to say: I was raised in a proper home and my daughter is too.

Every organisation rests upon a mountain of secrets ~ Julian Assange

Like I said. "proper". Things are OK now that weren't even a few years ago. They started sex ed when I was in the 4th grade. But they didn't exactly give us detailed, graphic photos. They gave us anatomy drawings. Nudity is one thing. I have no problem with nudity. However? I don't like having it shoved in my face every time on the site.

Kreations By Khrys

And Puntomaus, you have to remember that generally, in Europe, things are more alright than they are in the US. We're a bunch of stuck up prudes, for the most part. Some people, most notably of my mother's generation, think of nudity in /general/ as pornography. It's art, to them, when it's a painting. When it's a photo, they start going "Oh god, get that porn out of my house!". I don't understand it. Like I said. Tasteful nudity is fine. But when it's intentionally... well, for lack of a better way, when it looks downright slutty and trashy, I really don't want to see it, male nudity OR female nudity. Even erotic art is still art, in my mind, but only if it's well done. It can be beautiful, if done properly.

Kreations By Khrys

By khrys reasoning then all we should make is pink ponies. I don't have ankle biters. NOT my problem- if you don't want to see it (nudity) then click the option to not see it. But I'll be damned before I stop making pinups because of your particular physiological problems. You want to protect your kids, fine, don't come online until they go to bed- take responsibility yourself for your own behavior. Again, a republican is in office and we have to fight the vocal moral minority. "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." - Bill Cosby - To my overseas artist brothers- not all Americans agree with the radical right that you hear from in these kind of threads. It make me embarrassed to me an American. Freedom my ass.

" And Puntomaus, you have to remember that generally, in Europe, things are more alright than they are in the US." Yes, I know. Some things are sometimes hard for me to understand.

Every organisation rests upon a mountain of secrets ~ Julian Assange

If t wasn't for BOOBS, rosity would not exist, the pervs and underage boys that come here, just to look at naked women, would no longer come here. So now we have a big fuss over genitalia, if you can look at boobs all day, you might as well see the whole package.

Don't put words in my mouth, geoegress. I don't appreciate it, and I won't tolerate it. I /will/ take it up with staff if you continue to try to publicly demean me. Pink ponies my ass. "Even erotic art is still art, in my mind, but only if it's well done. It can be beautiful, if done properly." Can you read those simple little words? See...? If you want to take that attitude with me over what I said, I can and will take it up with staff, because I refuse to let myself be bombarded and attacked yet again by witch hunters. I'm not saying don't do pin ups and don't do nudes. I do them. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not right wing. I'm a loud mouthed gay male who simply gets sick of having breasts shoved in his face constantly. There's a difference between an artistic pin up and a trashy five minute poser image. We all know the difference. We're all adults. Don't assume to know my psychological problems based on /two/ posts. I do not agree with the 'radical right' that you see in these threads. Hello. Homosexual male. I can't even get MARRIED where I live, even if I want to. Maybe when geogegress learns to read instead of skim, they'll figure out what I just said. But I doubt it. I fully expect to be attacked by the raging, frothing mob yet again. The US, generally, is /much/ more prudish than Europe. I'd honestly prefer to live in Europe. But that requires money to move. I have no problem with nudity, or with pornography, for that matter, but each have their place. Pornography and /detailed/ examples of genitalia belong in Renderotica. If someone wants to put genitals on their female figures, please, by all means, do. Just don't, for example, do a close up of it and make it your thumbnail image and/or banner ad. Saying 'don't look at it' isn't that simple. You can't /turn/ the nudity off on banner ads. There used to be a rule about no nudity. There should be, again. It made the site seem more... I don't want to say mature, because there are some banners that look great, even nude. More professional, I suppose, but that's not quite right, either. I don't want to be surfing the forum and have a close up of someone's vagina on my screen anymore than straight people want to see two gay men having sex. I've got a perfectly proper image that, while highly suggestive, shows no genitalia or actual sexual content. I won't post it on this site, because it's homosexual and I don't feel the people here would like it, and I don't feel comfortable sharing it on this site. As for the boobs comment... Sure. Just don't make it your banner image. Blackhearted's banner is perfectly fine. Some of the others aren't.

Kreations By Khrys

Clarification: Rule about no nudity in banner ads.

Kreations By Khrys

please do post your image here. you won't be the first nor the last to post image with homosexual content. if you continue to do it only at 'rotica then, lol, i'm afraid you'll never get married in the usa. ;) btw, there's a slight difference between the picture of vagina and a picture of two (or more) gays (or not) having sex.

I'd actually rather not. And I don't post to 'Rotica, either, because I'm not comfortable posting there, either. I only post to www.gayposerart.com as Ganymede, and I don't post there, often, because /there/, unless it /is/ pornography, few people leave comments. It's a catch 22.

Kreations By Khrys

"Sorry, but I don't get it why some are so upset about it, really. But then I live in germany and nudity and other things are just natural over here, nothing to call nasty or porn. " christ i knew someone would bring that up, and several people did. 1. i am not a prude. i have nothing against nudity. i have seen plenty of the female anatomy. if anyone thinks i do have something against nudity, one look in my gallery or store promos will prove otherwise (im trying to cut down, really, i am). 2. i grew up in europe myself, so the 'bah, prudish americans' approach isnt going to work with me. yes, they are far more tolerant of tasteful nudity in the media in europe - youll see breasts in commercials, primetime tv and most magazines and even newspapers.. oftentimes even full nudity.. but dont try and make it out like there are women spreading their legs in the morning newspaper and everyone is so laid back and 'cultured' that even grandmothers will just stare at it approvingly over their morning coffee and mutter 'ooh, she has a nice hymen'. puhleeze. 3. there is artistic nudity, and pornographic nudity. ive always spoken up against pornographic nudity in these forums, ever since i became a member here (and made more than my share of enemies for it). there is a lot of tasteful, artistic nudity in the galleries. but theres also a lot of pornographic nudity thats under constant debate - im sorry, but 'money shots' do not belong here. i find nothing artistic or tasteful about a macro shot of a woman's innards, let alone detailed images of how they would morph were a penis inserted or if they were stretched open. before anyone starts flaming me - im not talking about pointless nudity.. hell, im guilty of it myself. im not speaking up against 'nude vicky in a temple with a sword' images here, or trying to have your right to post them taken away, so dont get your panties in a bunch... those will always be here to stay. 4. medical illustration? yes.. valid point. although i didnt get the 'medical feel' when i was looking at those promos. again, there is a way to do things tastefully. theres a reason Daz doesnt want to touch this sortof item. its accepted here, and i have no problem with that, because apparently the market is clamoring for morphing genitals that are higher resolution than the entire vicky 2 figure (genital props/morphs have always been the hottest selling items here). before someone brings it up (or if it already has been, havent read every post yet) i am not damaging anyones sales by pointing this out.i have nothing against the creator, or the product, really, and obviously it should be sold here since its doing really well and thats good for the community and will promote growth and traffic. if there are promos like this necessary to sell a product, the merchant could host them on a private site and link them from his/her product page with a simple highly graphical nudity content warning. if anything, this thread will bring in extra sales for the merchant. its just that id rather not see rosity become any more liberal with pornographic content and should draw the line at some types of promo images. i mean whats next? morphing condoms? dildos? butt-plugs? anal beads? where do we draw the line? cheers, -gabriel

"I missed the baddie image in question, so I won't comment on that. What shocks ME is that blackhearted' beautiful banner ad (shown in his message) was pulled. And labeling it 'obscene' just staggers belief. " ack.. im sorry, bad judgement call on my part in posting that. it was late, i had just got home after driving for two straight days, and i was a bit tired (i actually regret starting this thread, im sure ill make another assload of enemies for it). anyways, clint explained to me why it was pulled and that he probably made a bad judgement call on it but in the early implementation of the banner ad deletions there was some confusion and some borderline ones were deleted, while others werent. i guess it was a bad example, but all i could find at the time to illustrate my point. my apologies to clint. i WAS fuming mad at the time, because i spent a lot of time on my banner ads and particularly liked that one. as for the 'baddie image in question'.. i was thinking about posting it in the thread, but honestly i found it too offensive and didnt want to get chastised for posting it in the poser forum so i posted a link instead. surely someone has it still in their cache and could post a thumb so people know what this thread is about?

I live in a "proper" home so I can't allow that my children or my grandmother never see the Satan's invention like tits, vag.. (I even can't nention it), so all my cats look like this

Stupidity also evolves!

rolls his eyes Cute. Very mature.

Kreations By Khrys

I'd like to answer a few of the issues raised in this thread if I may. I'll try to be as correct as possible, but since I'm not MarketPlace staff there may be an error or inconsistency. If I do slip, I'm sure that Clint or one of the other MP staff will put me straight. The difference between banner images and MP promo images. Regardless of what your profile settings are with regard to nudity, you will potentially still see all ads in the current rotation. So the threshold of, for want of a better term, 'nudity tolerance' in banner ads is very low. On the other hand, when you visit the Marketplace the images you see are controlled by the nudity setting in your profile. If you have nudity switched off, you should see an eye icon instead of the actual image. So for Marketplace images the nudity threshold is much, much higher since you have the option of switching it off. That still doesn't allow for images to break the rules though. And it sounds like this one was over the line and subsequently got pulled. (Clint and the other store staff are only human, some things slip by unnoticed.) Why the hell is Renderosity selling a gen morph item anyway? Why not? It's just anatomy. Without some kind of add-on, I can't get a nude to look real even from a distance. I'm not suggesting that we all need to be able to manipulate 20 or 30 different settings to make heaven knows how many different looking vulvae, but for a realistic nude (where you can see the crotch area at least) you need a gen morph of some kind. I agree that on this occasion the promo image may have been too graphic, even considering a nudity filter, but credit where it's due please, Clint rectified the problem as soon as he became aware of it.

Gabe, I don't think anyone would call you a prude ;) Not if they'd taken even the most cursory look at your gallery or store. As for a more liberal line with store images, I think this thread has demonstrated that we're not becoming more liberal. At least I hope not; I think we have the balance pretty much right at the moment. And can we stop having a go a Khrys please? Whether you agree or not with what he said, taking the piss isn't helpful. Thanks, Kev.

"And can we stop having a go a Khrys please? Whether you agree or not with what he said, taking the piss isn't helpful." that image he just posted was fucking rediculous. how on earth can you even conceive of comparing censoring the nipples of a cat to showing a collage of macro-rendered spread female genitals? when people go completely overboard like that and lose track of the discussion at hand, they forfeit all credibility in my eyes. in my opinion, its him thats taking the piss here. im sick to death of every discussion like this being twisted into a 'no nudity' discussion in order to drum up support from the pro-nudity masses. if you even pay cursory attention to this thread youll notice that it has NOTHING to do with nudity, it has to do with the way pornographic nudity is presented in renderosity marketplace promos. "As for a more liberal line with store images, I think this thread has demonstrated that we're not becoming more liberal. At least I hope not; I think we have the balance pretty much right at the moment." and thats why i stay - because i think renderosity has its head on pretty straight about issues like this. less tolerant than rotica, more tolerant than daz.. its a happy medium. im just wary of people setting up precedents.. because theyre the real backbone of change: 'if he did that, why cant i do this?'. cheers, -gabriel

Excuse me, Blackhearted? Read again. You just attacked ME and I was DEFENDING YOU. kawecki was the one who posted the image of the censored cat, not me. Get it right before you go off cursing and attacking people next time. Frothing mob and all.

Kreations By Khrys

I was discussing the object in the image, not the person who posted. I've been attacked enough in these forums in the past to know the difference. The image itself was not mature.

Kreations By Khrys

Just a friendly reminder, if you see an image that seems ... not appropriate for Rendie, it's best to IM a Mod or admin. We do respond to IMs. Threads like these have a tendency to careen out of control. Kick back, enjoy the end of the week. (Some of us get to enjoy a holiday as well.) The world isn't going to end because of a disagreement on what's "realistic" vs. "pornographic." Cheers!

"Excuse me, Blackhearted? Read again. You just attacked ME and I was DEFENDING YOU. kawecki was the one who posted the image of the censored cat, not me. Get it right before you go off cursing and attacking people next time. Frothing mob and all. Sometimes if you're angry, it pays to wait 24 hours before posting...kawecki is the one that posted the cat image not Khrys, he posts it often in dicussions over nudity/pornography. After a while, only the newbies think it's cute." jesus people relax, it was a typo. both names start with a K too, its an honest mistake that can EASILY be understood if you drop your torches for a second. i was obviously referring to the person who posted the picture of the censored cat. "It was Khrys that posted this comment regarding kawecki's image: "rolls his eyes Cute. Very mature." Which could be taken as a personal attack, which is a TOS Violation. As things are "heating up", it might be a good time for the Mods to remind everyone to discuss the topic and not the people! " lol.. if thats a personal attack then all of rosity is guilty of it at one time or other.. perhaps mass bannings should ensue. disagreeing with something and saying its immature is nowhere near a TOS violation, its just a mild comment. id even say its also bloody rediculous and completely irrelevant without the slightest fear of it being taken as a personal attack. note these are EXAMPLES only and do not refer to anyone in this thread: personal attack: fuck you. you are a raving idiot. youre a load that should have been swallowed. your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries. not a personal attack: i disagree with your posts because they are senseless and moronic. youre acting irrationally and immaturely. if were to regard every statement of disapproval or disagreement as a personal attack, there wouldnt be very many of us left here at rosity. Khrys, really sorry.. havent had my morning coffee/cigarrette yet so my brain was still in low gear when i typed it. honest mistake.

You have a way with words....LOL. I work in a trucking terminal, where even your personal attack is mild compared to the stuff I hear every day (but funny...hehehe) ;o) Laurie

lol yeah, been there done that back in college i unloaded trucks for a courier service.. not fun. probably the worst job you can imagine - hefting 30-100lb boxes all night in a dingy, dusty environment kindof brings out the worst in your vocabulary :) as far as cussing goes though, the english language is pretty limited. unfortunately theres a finite amount of nastiness that you can string together within the confines of grammatical correctness.. hehe. gotta love europeans and their innate ability to string together an entire poetic paragraph-long bitchfest that would make even the most seasoned trucker blush like a schoolgirl :)

btw - shakespeare is, hands down, the king of insults. lol Shakespearean Insult Generator Come, you are a tedious fool. To the purpose. my personal favorite ;)

grin I did read everything carefully, I was just laying a bit of groundwork first. I know it's not about nudity per se, but I just wanted to be clear because, as you say, these threads can quickly degenerate into the nude vs. no-nude arguments. No biggie :) Kev.

I think the Arabic-speaking nations have the trump-card for insults. My favourite is "may your beard catch fire and your testicles wither and fall off."

shakes head I just don't get it. What's so bad about that morphing vagina? Why can't Vickie have genitals when Mike can? Or Don for that matter, his are even equipped with more morphs than Mike's. I won't jump at anyone here, but I find it an insult when someone hints what you speak of /look at in a socalled "proper home". Who are you to judge if my home is proper or not? Who are you to decide what I can talk about or show my kids? I have 2 girls, oldest is 12. She has a boyfriend. Do I like it? Not much. Do I scream and shout? No. I talk to her. Tells her what she needs to know. About what to do and what NOT to do. After all you're a minor here untill you're 15. Oh and I HAVE a morphing condom in Free Stuff. Prolly not the kind of morphs Blackhearted was thinking of, but nevertheless... :o) Please remember that this IS an international community. Some places you can't show tits, some places it's the navel, yet Vickie has both. And in some countries Poser is banned totally. Go figure. If God (whatever God you prefer) didn't want women to look like they do, he would most likely have made them different. So how can it be bad to show that in a rendering?

Ernyoka, I was saying "proper" not proper. "proper" meaning 'what white bread america thinks a family should be like'. They have a tendency to try to enforce their views on others. I honestly don't care if someone wants to tell their children about sex at an early age. Knowledge is power, and if you tell them about it, they'll be more comfortable about coming to you with problems. My boyfriend was raped because no one bothered to tell him about the birds and the bees, and he had no one he felt comfortable going to after the fact. But bringing the subject back around, there's a difference between depicting something with, for example, normal anatomical details, and, again for example, including 'spread' morphs on said genitalia, as if there was something inside it. The second has no educational merit, really, except perhaps in the study of sex, itself. Or for gynacologists, maybe. In any event, the image has been removed, so we can stop fighting, now. Everyone drop the pitchforks and torches and go home, and have your favorite meal. And save me some.

Kreations By Khrys

again, i said i agreed with the 'need' ... or at least the demand for the product and i support the selling of such things here because they promote growth in the community. what i dont agree with is the way it was presented. as for the 'this is an international community' argument.. PLEASE -- i dont care WHERE youre from, closeups of spread female labia are not considered 'tasteful'. by ANY culture. 'didn't want women to look like they do, he would most likely have made them different.' with that statement you could argue that since sex is perfectly natural and 'god intended it', it would be totally acceptable to have (married, since were on a religious kick now) couples perform sexual intercourse in public, on public transit, in front of children, wherever. im sick of hearing that something is 'natural' or 'as god intended' as an excuse for the gratuitous and vulgar display of it. with that reasoning, posting photos of my next bowel movement in the galleries should be perfectly acceptable. we have to draw the line somewhere.. and since rosity is trying to maintain a professional, 'family-oriented' atmosphere, at least some of the changes are taking it in the right direction and keeping it from going down the tubes into unadulterated smut like some other sites have. not that theres anything WRONG with smut. you just cant have both. you cant cater to a general, 'family' atmosphere AND allow smut, the two do not coexist. its like an episode of sesame street where bert & ernie start fisting each other.. its just not gonna fly with the general public, parents, or your boss if he happens to look over your shoulder. cheers, -gabriel

shudders Didn't need that Bert and Ernie image.

Kreations By Khrys

What a confusion! The CAT is MINE!, and is not about nudity, is about the tits. Female cats and male dogs (beware your legs) are very pornographic!

Stupidity also evolves!

I think the biggest issue isn't the presence of the "morphing genital"... but about the fact that the image was allowed up, when a greyed out child for size comparison was kicked out, even though it was exceptionally small, and was intended for nothing more than size comparison.

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

"closeups of spread female labia are not considered 'tasteful'. by ANY culture. "

But I think that was only done to show the morphs and not intended to be a render in the gallery. When I want to buy a product with several morphs I like to see all the morphs before I buy. When I go to that product page I know what it's about and then I am not shocked when I run into an image (haven't seen it, leider...) that shows the included morphs in detail. Same with textures. I really hate it when you do not see closeups of textures, when some parts are blurred for the sake of whoever.

Family oriented - it's up to the parents to take care for their children and what they see and whatnot. I do not expect this or any other website to be a babysitter and delete every image that could be harmful in what way ever for my child. It's my responsibility to take care for that. And about Grandma or Mom stumbling about 'nasty' pictures - they are grown up, it they can't deal with something it's really their problem. My mom was a nurse, I doubt anything on this page incl. images of spread vagina morphs would have shocked her.

Every organisation rests upon a mountain of secrets ~ Julian Assange

illusions, this is beyond that.. i dont think ANYONE in this entire thread has blamed clint for inaction or the merchant for selling the product here. its just turned to a discussion about nudity, pornography, and the way things are going these days. i think its staying pretty civil, actually, and no personal insults have been made, merely some cynical comments that are commonplace in ANY discussion, especially on the internet. and "cant cater to a general, 'family' atmosphere AND allow smut, the two do not coexist" was not an 'argument', but a statement. i never said rosity was trying to do both - theyre not. was simply a statement about the way some things just cant intermix by definition.

"My mom was a nurse, I doubt anything on this page incl. images of spread vagina morphs would have shocked her. " well, my mom's a doctor, but i would not be too thrilled about her stumbling across an image like that in a marketplace where i sell my products. its not about it being 'perfectly natural', or 'as god intended', or something 'everyones seen before' or 'all women have'. regardless of the fact that all women have a vagina, the majority of them dont think 'money shots' are very flattering to women. i have yet to hear a woman, much less a mother, say that theyre thrilled that someone finally made realistic morphing labia with inserted penis morphs and displayed them in such vivid detail in the marketplace. when i do, ill stfu. then again, maybe its just me. while i find the nude female form very artistic, beatiful, erotic, what have you.. ive never found 'money shots' arousing or artistic in any way... to me theyre the height of distastefulness and are quite demeaning to women.

This is not about porn or degrading women. The image in question wasn't a gallery image. Or a banner ad. This was an image showing an item's morphs in detail. Good salesmanship. There are so many things I don't buy beacause people just don't show enough details...

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

"well, my mom's a doctor, but i would not be too thrilled about her stumbling across an image like that in a marketplace where i sell my products." you mean the value of "washington post" is somehow lessened because the same newspaper stand sells "playboy"?

I find your frequent use of foul language extremely offensive Blackhearted. Maybe you should watch your mouth on the public forums. JDexter

I didn't see the image. Don't feel I really to because I basically I agree with Blackhearted. Said merchant may have been better off with morph images (or renders) posted offsite with a disclaimer page than so unelegantly unannounced as a second promo image. That is what I believe the seller of another Vicky genital prop did. While some people go for the 'crotch-shot' value of an image, I find an image immensely more erotically valuable based on so many other things. But for others this is what's important for them to have to create the realism they want in their images. In any case, I'd rather prefer the Khrys didn't feel so uncomfortable about his art that he can't post it here. Maybe this is something he has to work out himself. I've noticed a number of 'buddy' pose sets for sale in the MP now...

well Blackhearted, it looks as though you got the attention you so much craved or needed.... this place is really becoming a joke..

Handle every stressful situation like a dog.

If you can't eat it or play with it,

just pee on it and walk away. :-)

....................................................

I wouldnt have to manage my anger

if people would manage their stupidity......

Not trying to stifle discussion or anyone's point of view here, but please don't let this thread degenerate into a fight. Yeah, I know it's reasonably civil so far but just getting a pre-emptive word in ;) Thanks. Kevin.

hmm so closeup renders of a vagina model thats higher resolution than vicky herself with 'penis inserted' morphs is not pornographic in nature? what does it classify as then? medical art? as for foul language.. my god, i used four letter words twice, once to emphasize what a personal attack would be. its funny how someone can argue that close-up vaginal renders be allowed in the marketplace promos, yet at the same time be offended by the word 'fuck'. kindof ironic, dont you think? and this thread isnt wholly about 'protecting children'.. i just made the point that if i had a kid, id have no problem with him/her seeing promos of the latest vicky 3 texture, but i wouldnt want them seeing the image that started this thread. its about whats appropriate and whats not. "To have a "tantrum" about it being "pornographic" because you had 2 banner ads pulled is a bit "over the top"" this isnt about the banner ads, and the fact that you are accusing me of having a 'tantrum' over that is offensive. i already apologised to clint for using that as an example, it was a bad one. its all water under the bridge. this whole thread started when i got back home from driving for 2 days straight, sat down and had a look at the 'whats hot' section of the marketplace. im sitting here eating a bowl of noodles, clicking through the marketplace, and clicked on the promo for the product and was pretty shocked at it, and i dont think it belongs here (apparently neither do a lot of others). and yeah, i wanted to start a debate on it - because i think this is VERY relevant to rosity. i dont care about the pointless nudity in the galleries - im guilty of it myself on several occasions (although im trying to cut down on the nudity in my gallery for unrelated reasons)... this isnt about 'nudity' and im getting weary of some people trying to derail the issue at hand and try to turn it into a nudity/no nudity discussion. that debate will forever rage on unresolved at rosity, along with other seasonal debates like 'the hot20 is corrupt' and various other conspiracies. "It's also good to remember that this is a diverse site with a wide variety of outlooks and views...just because you label something pornographic doesn't make it so...and dismissing other points of view as irrational or valueless does little to foster compromise or agreement. " apparently its not just me.. and pardon me if i label 'nudity as natural' as an irrational excuse for over the top promo ads. yeah i may come off as blunt or rash at times but thats just the way i am, and im unlikely to change at this late stage. just the way i 'speak'.. some people take offense at things i say which intended no offense at all. im just a sarcastic bastard and sometimes people fail to see my twisted humor and take things the wrong way. again let me say that im not trying to insult anyone here, or accuse rosity, the merchant in question, or anyone in this thread. im just worried that certain precedents will open the door to a tide of smut at rosity and the site will go downhill from there (like others have in the past). i realise that since this has been dealt with by the admins, and very quickly at that, its kindof a non-issue.. but i still feel strongly about my views on what is pornographic and what is not, and im still waiting for someone to convince me that a money-shot has 'artistic value'. cheers, -gabriel "I find your frequent use of foul language extremely offensive Blackhearted. Maybe you should watch your mouth on the public forums." oh please. in the years ive been here, i can probably count on my hands how many times ive said fuck in these forums... oops

Umm, BH, I didn't argue in favor of the vagina pictures in the markeyplace, so gets your facts straight. I wanted to point out that while you might find vaginal pictures offensive (and I tend to agree) it is no different than you constantly cussing on the boards. You need to watch your language, period. There is no reason for you to be using language like that, and I wonder why the mods in this forum don't seem to think it is a problem. It's not about artistic commentary, it's just your bad mouth. JDexter

"im just a sarcastic bastard and sometimes people fail to see my twisted humor and take things the wrong way." lol- me too :) " im just worried that certain precedents will open the door... " "it's a piss poor sword that dosn't cut both ways" Thats why so many of us are becoming more vocal about this, "give em an inch and they'll take a mile"

"it is no different than you constantly cussing on the boards" way to generalise there bud. #1. i hardly post anymore, i cant recall posting much in weeks, perhaps months. in the last year ive probably posted only a handful of threads, hardly anywhere close to the dozens a day i would post prior to that. #2. im serious when i say i can probably count on my hands how many times ive cussed on these boards. #3. the word is in the dictionary. its crude, and slang, but its a part of the english language and just about everyone uses it sometimes. i see no parallel to my using the word f*ck to open vagina renders... however, if i had a little kid i wouldnt mind them hearing the former but i would mind them seeing the latter - theres quite a large degree of difference between the two. #4. this is why, when a film has coarse language in it, its usually rated PG-13. if it has nudity, or suggestive/adult situations, its rated R. id like to think of renderosity as rated PG-13 with the nudity filter on, and R with it off... which is a happy medium. when a film has closeups of spread labia, its generally rated X or XXX. im hoping rosity doesnt go that route. this has been my point all along.

Oookay ... boys and girls and artists of all ages lets keep the potty mouth to a minimum, alright? And that means EVERYBODY. Lyrra (moderator)

"i WAS fuming mad at the time, because i spent a lot of time on my banner ads and particularly liked that one." I'd characterise that as a tantrum... umm.. this was like 4 months ago, lol. 'at the time' was when they were pulled. "Prime example...you said that in response to JDexter, who was offended by your language. You dismissed their feelings in favor of your actions. " no, i was making a point. you cant equate using the word fck to posting macro money-shots. you can turn on prime-time tv and hear the word fck a dozen times per show.. but you wont be seeing many zoom close-ups of spread labia now will you? its like comparing a jaywalker to osama bin laden because they both 'broke the law'. "You don't seem to be particularly concerned about offending anyone else. " i constantly apologize in advance with the foreknowledge that people will take what i say the wrong way, and constantly attempt to explain and point out that im not attacking anyone in particular only the issue that i have strong feelings about. "and more concerned about how you come across...you might be taken a bit more seriously by more people." you hardly speak for the entire forum. a lot of people here agree with me.. and as for my 'style', id rather be considered up-front and blunt than pussy-foot around a topic and speak in word-games and a roundabout manner. if i dont like something, im going to come out and say it. if i disagree with someone, and it doesnt matter who that someone is, im going to voice that disagreement. interesting that throughout this thread many more people have been flinging insults and provocation at me than i at them, yet im not getting my panties in a bunch over it. "Now I know you can't "hear my tone" so let me assure you none of this is meant to be sarcastic or disrespectful...I'm just sitting here having a friendly chat with you." same here. your posts do come off as pointing an ___load of fingers at me though, but im used to it so enjoy yourself. as for the tide of smut.. every once in awhile people attempt to slip stuff in - wether intentionally or inadvertantly.. and sometimes it gets by the administration/moderators. then the NEXT time someone does it theyll whine 'but you let so and so do it earlier, so you have to let me do it too' and usually the administration backs down and lets them get away with it. at this point, were seriously beating one very fat, very dead horse here. the issue that started the thread is resolved and currently neither 'side' is presenting any valid points other than pissing back and forth about irrelevant crap, and trying to divert what i originally thought was a pretty clearcut topic but now is a potential flamefest. im going to go make a pizza :) poofs

I am a woman. ------------------ 68. "...i have yet to hear a woman ... say that theyre thrilled that someone finally made realistic morphing labia with inserted penis morphs and displayed them in such vivid detail in the marketplace. when i do, ill stfu..." ------------------ 69. by Caly "This is not about porn or degrading women. The image in question wasn't a gallery image. Or a banner ad. This was an image showing an item's morphs in detail. Good salesmanship. There are so many things I don't buy beacause people just don't show enough details..." ------------------ Thrilled isn't the word I would normally use, but if it helps... I'm thrilled that someone came up with such realistic genitals for women. Why should Michael have all the fun? ;)

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

lol bravo, i didnt think one could fit so many subtle snide personal insults into such a short post. you get a merit badge for that one :)

the word is in the dictionary. its crude, and slang, but its a part of the english language and just about everyone uses it sometimes. i see no parallel to my using the word fck to open vagina renders... however, if i had a little kid i wouldnt mind them hearing the former but i would mind them seeing the latter - theres quite a large degree of difference between the two.*

IMHO the difference between the general argument "it's natural so it's OK" and "it's in the dictionary so it's OK" is at best negligable. You're asking for intelligent, adult distinctions to be drawn on the graphic side and AFAICS one or two people have simply asked you to "do as you say" on the language side. I HAVE a little kid, and I wouldn't want him to see the image as described or hear your use of language. He gets neither on UK TV all day long. Can't we all just get along? This topic is a dead parrot. It is deceased, it has departed this mortal coil. It is an ex-parrot.

I agree with who3d this topic is a Dead Parrot If neccasary it will be locked Lyrra

I'm not surprised something slipped through, lately the banner ads have been getting bad again with nipples showing on a Koshini ad and blatent nudity.
Everything else on this site has a nudity flag but banner ads don't and shouldn't contain nudity until there is one.

Whether the item belongs here or not, and with regard to the aguments about children: This site is not Renderotica. No one in their right mind would expect to visit Renderotica with their computer screen in plain view of children or co-workers. The forums here however as well as merchant accounting pages, etc shouldn't be something you have to wait till you're home or the kids are in bed to view just because of the banners. The galleries, yes. The marketplace, probably. But the forums? Sorry but art site or not, some discression should be exercised.

And I don't belive things like this necessarily belong at R'otica. This is an art site and a popular one at that. People should be able to purchase items like this here. Graphic images however don't really belong and if an item can't be sold without them, that should be the deciding factor on where it belongs.

...... Kendra

Three cheers for Vicky! No one ever complains about the size of Mike's penis or whether he has enough scrotal morphs. It's Vicky who looks "too young," not the poor Mil kids. I suspect a giant image of El Dorko's package would never generate the heat Victoria's secret does. Don's pecs no matter how buffed never cause the consternation that Vicky's breasts do. It is interesting that in a thread which is, I suspect dominated by males, the female genetalia and their depiction is so controversial. It is interesting that DAZ felt male genitals were OK but the female equivalent is off limits. It is interesting that in a world where women make up the majority of the population, men still have this strange nned to control, cover up, characterize and prohibit women's bodies. Whether it's the "enlightened" 21st century man or the would be 5th century Taliban, some things naver change.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

This is why I have only the tits of my females cats censored, the 8 tits of the male cats remains uncensored.

Stupidity also evolves!

LOL Kawecki. Have you noticed that the poor animal haven't got any ... er.. exit? No need for litterboxes when you have a Poser cat G

if you're looking at a female GEN prop or female GEN morphs in the MP... then it should have renders of them. if its a GEN prop or GEN morphs, and you click on the thumbnail in the marketplace, obviously knowing damn well what you clicked on because I assume you can read the language on the thumb and description (no nudity there, remember), you should be expecting the details you see in the advert. in other words, its your own damn problem if you click on it. As long as the nudity is simply showing the details of the prop, not how you can USE the prop... I see no problem with it. Women's genitals are not naughty... they are natural. /now bijou considers doing a very naughty image... maybe one of a mother giving birth... another use for female genitalia... what goes in... often comes out, you know G

This is not a childrens site... btw. If you let your little brats run on Renderosity unattended... well that's a parenting failure... not R'ositys. I have dealt with too many sorry excuses for parents in my days of tech support... I have no tolerance for them. Babysit your own kids. I refuse to water down my experience here because some people here can't be bothered to babysit.

"It is interesting that DAZ felt male genitals were OK but the female equivalent is off limits. It is interesting that in a world where women make up the majority of the population, men still have this strange nned to control, cover up, characterize and prohibit women's bodies." pretty tired of this argument too. michael NEEDS basic mesh genitals - because if he lacked a penis he would look inhuman. he doesnt have any erection morphs, a morphing anus (shudder), scrotal morphs, etc. the victoria models always had genital morphs - a morph that gives her genital area enough detail that, textured, she will look natural and realistic in a render. she does not need a morphing orifice. so no, the argument that 'if michael has a penis why cant vicky have a vagina' doesnt apply at all here. mike has a basic penis because the penis is an external sexual organ and a lack of it would make him look unnatural and inhuman. victoria has enough of a genital morph to accurately portray female genitalia in artistic renders. how many artistic nudes have you seen which require a gaping orifice? now before people start twisting what i said - let me reiterate that im not arguing against selling something like this at rosity or the specific product that started this thread, only the way it was presented. and please spare me the 'if michael has a penis vicky should have a vagina' argument, because its been addresses hundreds of times before here, and by Daz themselves, and is a pretty weak argument.

"...maybe one of a mother giving birth..." Careful, if the baby is in contact with the vagina, that would be a violation. Of course, if the mother was one of those multiparous women with strong pelvic muscles who can pop out babies with ease, you might capture the newborn in mid-air at the moment of delivery. Strangely, Zygote supposedly deigned to create an anatomically correct female for some OB/GYN job. So, you could argue that birth has been declared (ex cathedra no less) to be an acceptable reason for depicting yawning yoni.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"This is not a childrens site... btw. If you let your little brats run on Renderosity unattended... well that's a parenting failure..." i agree that a lot of the content here is racy and requires parental guidance.. but who are you to say this isnt a children's site? rotica isnt a children's site. thralldom isnt a children's site. but rosity is basically an artist community that deals in every medium.. id encourage my 'brat' to join rosity and deviantart because they could learn a lot here. and while id have few problems with said 'brat' seeing most of the pinups the galleries are teeming with, id not want them to see something like the image that spawned this thread.

And let's remember also, it's not like we are talking about a photograph! why not? how different is it really? Even if that WAS considered art, cuz yes im implying that it isnt, its still not something that is labelled by the general majority of the world's population (not just us here at rosity) as acceptable. if it were so acceptable, and there wassnt anything wrong with showing it, then we'd be seeing spread twats all over the place. I dont recall seeing any accomplished artist displaying such. and yes as a personal opinion i find NOTHING artistic or innocent about it. just because you label something pornographic doesn't make it so... Its not him labelling this pornographic, its the fact that if you showed any one of those images to the average person THEY would as well. We all know what the majority of the world thinks about pictures of genetalia, whether you agree with it or not, this is still something thats not acceptable in any country ive seen. and i dont think it belongs here (apparently neither do a lot of others). i have to agree with that. especially after one reads the TOS in the galleries. Cuz yeah, as a personal opinion, which im entitled to w/o getting flamed, i dont think products like genital morphs belong at renderosity. i thought that was why we had rotica? #4. this is why, when a film has coarse language in it, its usually rated PG-13. if it has nudity, or suggestive/adult situations, its rated R. id like to think of renderosity as rated PG-13 with the nudity filter on, and R with it off... which is a happy medium. when a film has closeups of spread labia, its generally rated X or XXX. im hoping rosity doesnt go that route. this has been my point all along. exactly exactly exactly. Daz is SO PG-13, id even go so far as to say just PG. and they do just fine. I personally dont think rosity should ever be above an R rating. And again, whether you see this thing as acceptable to yourself or your family or not, the general public doesnt agree. you dont even see that in softcore porn. showing such pictures of genetalia, male or female, is hardcore. x rated. we all know a product like that wont sell if a potential buyer couldnt see how it actually looks right? well if a promo so unacceptable that the rosity admin would delete it, why should such an item be for sale here anyway? if its gonna sell, its gonna sell, no matter where you have it up. rotica has a store for these types of items, why do they need to be here, when you cant even show them in the promos, if you can sell them at a site that caters specifically to people who want to do that type of art? then no one is offended. no, i was making a point. you cant equate using the word fck to posting macro money-shots. you can turn on prime-time tv and hear the word fck a dozen times per show.. but you wont be seeing many zoom close-ups of spread labia now will you?. again my previous point. yeah cussing is somethign accepted by the general public, crotch shots are not and you all know it. whther you agree with it or not. "You don't seem to be particularly concerned about offending anyone else. " i constantly apologize in advance with the foreknowledge that people will take what i say the wrong way, and constantly attempt to explain and point out that im not attacking anyone in particular only the issue that i have strong feelings about. let me tell you guys something, i more than ANY of you know Gabe, his sarcasm, how he talks, and how incredibly easy it is to take things he says the wrong way. its taken me a while to get used to it and know better than to take things personally (lol and vice versa for me ;) And in every post hes ever made where he may have offended someone he IMMEDIATELY apologises even if its someone he may not even like. he doesnt want to be taken the wrong way any more than you guys do. his apologies before hand are just him explaining 'hey what im about to say you might take the wrong way, so please hear me out first cuz im not trying to attack anyone, just expressing an opinion'. so guys dont jump down his throat. he has a right to express an opinion, and didnt do anythign wrong in posting this thread. the point of this thread was NOT to chastise the creator or even to have it brought down, just to discuss the fact that it is up period. HA! that was probably my first and only post where i myself did not say fck once. ;)*

Not gonna argue with you BH. You have your own opinion which differs from mine. You have your own ideas of what is acceptable, artistic etc. Saying that the issue has "adressed," as if that constitutes some kind of ultimate truth doesn't cut it for me. Obviously many people do not agree that Vicky's organic genital morphs are sufficient for their tastes. Obviously, you feel that no one producing anything you would define as artistic would desire such an item. I have no problem with anyone having their own ideas of what is artistic or tasteful. I have a large problem with anyone trying to insist that their definition is somehow beyond question. You object to realistic female anatomy, that's fine. Don't use 'em, don't look at them and I'll respect your choice. It should be no pain to you that those who feel differently want to use add-ons and want to see what those products look like. No one has tried to characterize the work you choose to do based on the resources you choose to utilize. Why not show others the same consideration. This idea that anyone is going to, or should have to agree with someone else's idea is truly a dead horse.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

This idea that anyone is going to, or should have to agree with someone else's idea is truly a dead horse. NObunny is saying that. play nice kids.

"You object to realistic female anatomy, that's fine." sigh i think ive been saying all along that i dont. but theres a way to sell it, advertise it, without crossing the line into the X rated. i think some caution, some restraint and common sense should be used in advertising them on a family site. if you dont want to exercise that caution, then sell them at rotica or thralldom which cater to this type of thing.

Re: WTF??? whats this place coming to? by Rio on 7/5/03 10:59 why not? how different is [from a photograph] it really? There's potentially dodgy ground ahead, but personally I see little difference between photography and 3D. One usual argument goes "But no-one gets hurt in 3D" which is a fallacy. It may be that no physical person gets denuded/beheaded/whatever but to assert that "no-one gets hurt" is to say that the image/s in question have zero effect, zero impact, on everyone that views them. That the art of storytelling outside of theatre leaves everyone equally unmoved. I don't buy it, personally - but it's a far more complex question that I'd hope to cover in a single thread (nevermind a single post!). We all know what the majority of the world thinks about pictures of genetalia, whether you agree with it or not, this is still something thats not acceptable in any country ive seen. Agreed - it seems to me fairly obvious in most cases what is acceptable and what is not - it's only at the borders where there's any real room for "interpretation". To be honest, there are also precious few locations I've been where it's considered "perfectly OK" to swear in public. i dont think products like genital morphs belong at renderosity. i thought that was why we had rotica? Although not really the point of this thread, I'd have to agree. However it's been asserted that a large percentage Renderosity's turnover comes from such products, so it may be difficult to envisage Renderosity willingly vetoing such products. Fortunetly for the MP there's a "nudity" flag setting so you don't have to see such things unless you actually LOOK for them. If you look for them and find them then, well, there ya go. Daz is SO PG-13, id even go so far as to say just PG. and they do just fine. Agreed again - I can't recall the last time I saw swearing on the DAZ site . again my previous point. yeah cussing is somethign accepted by the general public, crotch shots are not and you all know it. whther you agree with it or not. I disagree quite strongly. At least in my neck of the woods, if you wander through town cussing loudly enough for others to hear you'll be approached by PC plod just as quickly as if you wander around flashing pictures of plastic pretend vaginas. Maybe quicker, even. Just think about it - if you walk down your local highstreet cussing at every third person, are you so sure that your behaviour will be found perfectly acceptable?

lol VERY good point, i meant acceptable as in its something thats always out there, people always do it, its all over TV..acceptable isnt the word.. but cussing is certainly more tolerated, esp publicly. there arent any laws or restirctions made for the protection, or whatever, of others against cussing like their are restrictions on viewing pornographic material. so thats what i was getting at. and that i personally think cussing is more overlookable, lol if thats a word, than publicly showing pictures of naughty bits with THINGS! lol... and i also know better than to go out publicly and start swearing at everyone. i know its something that would offend a lot of people, so i know better. i know where to draw a line. ;) this thread came about cuz we think the lines here are getting a bit fuzzy perhaps? i just dont see why if promo images that you NEED to have in order for your product to sell are not allowed to be seen here, then why is the product up anyway? i see why people would want items liek that, i understand the demand, but i also know that if i personally was ever gonna sell something liek that id do it at rotica where i know i wont be offending anyone and i know i can show whatever promos i want however i want, without having to worry about offense or forum posts. that to me is just common sense and respect to this community and their general opinions on the matter, if i may say that without sounding way harsh.

People go where they think the money is- 'osity has lots of people, and obviously he's doing well what with the Hot Item status. Stores keep what makes them them lots of money. Nudity tags are here for a reason.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

"You want to know something though...I don't care how many people you think find certain language acceptable, but I don't want my children to think that calling a woman's genitals a "twat" in public is acceptable...just so you know...both my children are over 18...I didn't raise them that way and they both respect my feelings enough not to do it in front of me. It's only common decency to respect the rights of others that don't want to hear it or read it as well! " there you go again. i find it pretty pompous that youre complaining about the word 'twat' in one breath while defending a collage of money-shots in another. its also no comparison. go pick a random person on the street, and say 'twat' in a conversation with them. at most youll get a raised eyebrow. now pick a random person on the street, and hold up a poster of macro shots of female genitalia in various 'positions' in front of their face. youll be lucky not to get slapped or have the cops called on you. THATS the point being made here. please stop trying to dilute this thread by comparing rio's use of the word 'twat' in reference to the image to the actual vagina collage itself.. its childish and transparent at best.

Thank you for your interest in my product, "G3 - A Conforming Genital for Victoria 3" at http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=20499 it was a project that spanned three months in in creation due to planning and testing prototypes. Thank you my beta testers for your guidance and helping me a first of its kind, conforming genital. It has been called a hybrid, maybe that is a good description, for it morphs the geometry of Vicki3's hip and adds a conforming labia prop with in the folds of vicki3's hip. The process is not absolutely perfect, but my Beta Testers agree that it is the best genital for any figure up to date. I have priced it at only Fifteen dollars so everyone could afford it and I would get a fair reward for my building it. I am not a pornographer; I spend all my time working on modeling, my rendering and post rendering skills are minimal. I my first G3 models designed for r-rated usage or even soft porn. My testers who have not given me permission to use their names, have made it quite clear that some people would want to use this for renders such as you would find on Renderotica. This required three more rebuilds of the geometry and much experimenting with what Vicki's hip polys would do. Finally I built a genital hybrid that would satisfy even Renderotica Artists. The offending picture has been replaced by boring black in white text, there used to be a picture the genital hybrid's many morph shapes, poses, and textures. This picture told a thousand words, it let you make up your own mind by seeing exactly what you were getting before you bought it. I consulted Renderosity by email and asked them what their policy was on portraying such sensitive and maybe controversial item in detailed pictures. I was told to stay within published guidelines which I did. Due to outrage about the detailed pictures of my model, Renderosity felt it in the best interest of everyone to remove this picture. I have no bad feelings toward anyone at Renderosity or to those who complained and I would also rather see my picture singled out and removed then see Renderosity change their policy on what is acceptable for their site. You can request this banned picture or ask me any questions about the product by Instant Messaging me here at Renderosity.com. Thank you all for making this one of the top selling products on Renderosity Market Place. Watch here for G3ForMen, A Conforming Male Genital for Vicki3, to be released soon. I am consulting Renderosity now about how I can portray a penis model with out creating an outrage. I am asking it could be embedded in my home page articles with a warning that you are about to see a penis. Marty-Insomniaworks

yes well im still sorry, im a pretty vulgar person actually and tho i try to be on my best behavior, i slip up a lot. its also hard to always remember that what never offends me or those im around can easily offend others who find it unacceptable. bad habits are hard to shake. and im not used to ANYONE i know finding the word "twat" remotely offensive, so im sorry if i forget to pay attention all the time. and yeah vulgar language vs pornographic material is not the issue here. both are offensive, we all admmit that. just please try not to take things so personally.

Marty, mad props. that was so polite and mature and understanding i must say im in awe ;) thank you for not takin any of this personally!!

"I am asking it could be embedded in my home page articles with a warning that you are about to see a penis. " until renderosity includes not just a nudity filter, but an X rated filter, i think that would be the best way and what i would do were i the creator of such a product. i have nothing against you or your product man - its well done and i realise theres a huge market for it, and hope you do well. i realise that at first glance this thread may seem to be 'bashing' you, but its not never was it intended to be - in fact it should increase your sales if anything. its just that even though i have the nudity filter set to 'off'.. theres some things some people would rather not see. just because i dont mind seeing renders of nude vicky 3 in a temple and have disabled the filter, doesnt mean that crotch shots fall into the same category. i think that hosting the images on your rosity homepage with a warning, or on a private homepage, would be a better way to go about it. posting some general, non-X rated shots in the product promos and then linking to more detailed images with a warning about adult content would satisfy everyone here - and its what i suggested in my first post. that way you wouldnt offend anyone, and you would also have detailed renders readily available for those who wish to see them. lets face it - if someone is looking for a realistic genital model for vicky (or the upcoming mike one), then they will not hesitate for a second to check out more linked images. cheers, -gabriel

hey baba good idea! oh yeah, if you offer more pics people will look, hands down. that goes for everyone, just cuz rosity has spots for 3 pics doesnt mean you are only limited to not linking to more. good idea, for everyone.

Marty, Bravo, excellent post. Here's the humor... how uptight did the Puritans have to be for the English to kick them out of their country?! ;)

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

Hello, first of all I have no bad feelings about any of you and your comments. I feel that their should be guidelines we should stay within. Maybe I went overboard with the detailed graphic pictures of what my model looked like, but I first emailed Renderosity and specifically told them what my model was and how it worked. They emailed me back with a very short message, which looked like form mail kinda, with a link to go to with guidelines for promotional material. Maybe they should have given more time in answering my question, but they hadn't, and things unfolded as they did. I have spent so much time on this project that I began became un-sensatized to it. I envy all of you who buy it and use it for fun or profit, and enjoy it. For me, I spent too many hours working on this project that I could have been out having fun with my friends to enjoy it. In other words, its just a product to me. When I did the advertising add, maybe I went too far, but I was only trying to show what the product looked like. I stayed well within the Renderosity Guidelines. I thought all those micro close ups wouldn't be so erotic to cause such a rukus. Just wanted to show what the product looked like. I don't think that my model being young is even an issue, she was nothing special, just a few morphs, goth make up, and some hair. Her breast are pretty huge also. I don't get this complaint. Oh, maybe its because she has no hair, well, if she had hair, you couldn't see the genital. By the way, most of today's younger woman, (or the ones that I know), shave. Its become sort of cleanliness thing. The woman I know wouldn't admit to having pubic hair. I know its country wide because I heard them discussing this on Regis Philborn a month ago where all the woman on the set were saying they shaved. (I am not making this up). As for what she looks like, she is a woman you could meet any day, she looks real. I guess I better start putting big Texas hairdo's on them and quit making their features so cute. By the way, I wonder how many of you are History Channel watchers like me. I always feel a little like a nerd for watching it and when friends come over I usually switch over to MTV. But I was over at a party on Forth Of July Eve, and my friends had on the history channel. Well they had a two specials about Hugh Hefner and the Playboy Mansion West. I was sitting around drinking beers with my friends and they had all these people walking around practically naked. There were tits everywhere hidden only by little bit of lace (you could see right through it). Not only that! They had a segment in the show where they were these artists were painting naked woman (i mean applying paint to young woman as young looking as in my add) and they were walking around naked through the party. Some were done up like cats and animals and some had clothing painted on. And they showed them, my jaw hit the floor, there was shaved full frontal nudity, Painted" I wish I could find a internet site that had this stuff. There was one girl standing in the bright light of the dressing room and I could even see her "conforming genital figure", hehehe, with a little paint on it. Anyway, I popped in a video tape and recorded the show on its next rotation so I have a tape in case anyone wants proof. WTF is the history channel coming to? Lets talk about that and get some of the attention away from renderosity who is only trying to do the best they can in these changing times. There are no clear cut lines between what is appropriate and what is not anymore. In the mean time, I will continue creating items that will sell. I look out there in the market place and ask myself one question over and over, what will a large number of people want. Then I will create it. I promise to use more discretion in my advertising in the future. marty-insomniaworks

Yeah, thanks Rio. I was torn as to whether to thank you for your comments re: language or to try and let this parrot have a decent burial, but... well, thanks :)

lol I saw that History Channel show. The bodypaint was beautiful! Here's a bodypaint artist- http://www.fleshandcolor.com/

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

Hey caly, some of those models at that site look pretty young, hmmmm.

grin In that business you're 'Over the Hill' at like 24. :D I have seen 18 yr olds that look 14. I have seen 14 year olds that look 18. It's really hard to judge.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

body painting rules!! they get so freakin creative sometimes its amazing, playin off anatomy and such <3...but yeah really, im kinda shocked theyd have something liek that on the history channel but i guess seein as it was painted over and a channel whose main audience are adults anyway, i dont see much offense i guess? body painting rules!! ;)

"not just a nudity filter, but an X rated filter" Great idea - until I thought of the row that would ensue as people argued over what constituted X rated and there we go again. I didn't get to see the original image but I'm sure that Insomniaworks read the TOS as advised and followed it. If that is the case, then the image was pulled, not because it was a violation, but because a few people raised enough of a stink about it. That's cool, they have a right to complain. But, when you start trying to avoid anything that offends anyone, you would end up with nothing but black squares - except someone would complain and want white. On a mercifully lighter note, many years ago there was a layout on painted vulvas in some fine publication. There was a great Castro, complete with beard and a Black model sported a scowling Mr. T. Sports Illustrated had a painted on swimsuit layout a few years ago. The female star of the new Pirated of the Caribbean described spending 45 minutes a day having cleavage painted on her less than ample chest.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

What's worse. Censorship of pictures or censorship of words. Or are they just different sides of the same coin. "There's no need to refer to other peoples' children as brats". Oh my. Another word stricken from our vocabulary. Before long we won't be able to even THINK because we'll have no words left.

how about making an "ault-only" section with access personally regulated from the member options? Adult poser products is a reality we must live with (and i don't dislike them) but since there are particular situations in wich is better they don't exist (when i browse renderosity from work for example) I think that will be a great solution: if you don't want distasteful or obsene products you don't see them....

I find the repeated use of the word "F#%K" to be as disturbing as a cartoon picture of a dam TWAT

"...how about making an "ault-only" section..." Well, aside from the aforementioned problem of deciding what get's sent there, it is a good idea. If people could agree on the criteria, then perhaps the majority would be OK with it. It's true that "adult oriented" items are a reality. Renderosity makes money off them and vendors who want to make money don't want to be relegated to the much smaller market at Renderotica. I imagine that most people don't have a problem with their existence or sale. Some people have a problem with ad images but since thay can turn them off, I don't understand that complaint. For all those at wotk (on lunch or ligitimate business I assume :-), a "clean" config on the work PC should do the job. There are a few people who just don't like the stuff and want it to go away but I'd bet they are in the minority. I base that on the fact that everyone who complains in these situations is at pains to assert their lack of prudery, love of (tasteful) naked Vicky, etc. :-) So, an "adults only section seems reasonable to me. To the PTB though, it's probably doesn't seem so good. Having such an option might tarnish the family friendly image, a concern I can understand. It would also mean more work to administer it for perhaps no great increase in revenue. I don't know how many people sell at Renderotica but not here because they feel that Renderosity isn't friendly to their products. I suspect that kinky S&M appliances and such would never be accepted, even in an adults only section here. Since some are unhappy with some of the banners as well, it would be great to have a global setting in the profiles that would only serve up PG banners in addition to blocking "adult" content in the MP. I don't think that would be a great problem from the technical side but I haven't used the software so that's speculation. The problem, again, would be deciding which banners get the adult rating - one more job for the admins. It would also cause more threads with merchants complaining that thier banner shouldn't have gotten the "AO" rating. That's not a knock on Blackhearted - I don't see why in the world his banner was considered "obscene." It does illustrate the potential (probable) can of worms that would be opened. It's a very good idea from a standpoint of making money, giving customers products they want, artistic freedom and common sense IMO. As to whether everyone involved would be mature enough and practical enough to pull it off without a long, bitter and unresolved war, that, I'm not so sanguine about. Can you say image posting limits redux?

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"I imagine that most people don't have a problem with their existence or sale. Some people have a problem with ad images but since thay can turn them off, I don't understand that complaint. For all those at wotk (on lunch or ligitimate business I assume :-), a "clean" config on the work PC should do the job. " thats the problem. everyones answer seems to be 'if you dont like it, turn on your nudity filter and filter it out'. i dont think that i should have to filter out ALL nudity (3/4 of rosity, lol) in order to not view money shots. the two are in completely different categories.

"i dont think that i should have to filter out ALL nudity (3/4 of rosity, lol) in order to not view money shots." Thus the option for multi-level filtering which I assume you agree with since you suggested it first. If you're at work, especially the way the workplace is these days, I think filtering all nudity is probably the safest and sanest thing to do. I'd really be worried that my idea of tasteful nudity would inevitably run afoul of the boss' or someone else's idea of taste and so save my naked Vicky viewing for home. I doubt the "It was only a naked woman, not her vagina," defense is going to stand up in any sexual harassment action. While I doubt the multi-filter will be implemented, I don't like your solution either. It has the same problem of deciding what to put where that filtering does with one key difference. With filters things go in general or adult. You seem to be saying (correct me if I'm wrong), that you want to be able to see nudity, but only the nudity you want to see - so its general or it's banned. I think we actually agree on what we'd like to see implemented but in the absence of that, I can't agree with banning images even if they meet the TOS, based on personal taste. And I don't agree with the "everyone in every place on the planet is going to be offended by X," argument as a reason either. First, it's not true. He sent me a copy of the image and not only was I not offended or shocked by it, I was actually even more surprised that it became so controversial, especially considering that it was a product illustration one had to intentionally go look at. There is a good reason the TOS are pretty specific about what is not acceptable and that is to avoid people being censored based on someone's personal taste or views on morality. If the site really believes in freedom of expression, then that means an image should have a place here, even if 10,000 members oppose it and only one is in favor of it. Having been a victim of overzealous censorship yourself, I would hope that you agree with that. I can sympathise with not wanting to go through an extra hassle. I'm sure that a lot of people won't be happy to have to go ask the librarian to turn off the filters either. Putting an filter on/off selector in one of those dropdowns would be nice. In the end though, I think the filter, however it's implemented is the best solution for protecting everyone's rights. And yes, being able to look at vaginas before buying one is a right, it falls under the pursuit of happiness :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

i dont think what i suggested is so complicated. just as we have a nudity and violence toggle here, there could be a second (or third depending on how you look at it) one perhaps. ie: when you log into the site, like now, the nudity filter is off by default meaning you see two levels: non-nudity, and nudity. there could be a third option, disabled by default.. like an 'adult content' option. anything that goes beyond mere nudity into sexual content or highly suggestive or violent content could go in there, youd simply hit the toggle when uploading just like the nudity one. if someone wishes to view it, its their choice and would take 2 seconds to enable it in their preferences. if someone wishes to view no nudity or adult content, they could just set the filter on and would view neither. would make everyone happy, and would also open up the marketplace for more types of products and bring in more revenue. people that dont wish to view the adult content need not even know it 'exists'. cheers, -gabriel

Nope. If you don't want to see the product shots DONT CLICK TO GET THERE. Why don't you also ask for flags for: No images/products with any religious references No images/products of foods that can make you fat No images/products of anyone who is overweight No images/products of any ethnic group unless 100% authentic No products whose description contains any of 1,236,436 banned words No images/products depicting any entity who is poor No images/products of expensive toys for children No images/products for one sex only..they must be for both male and female No images/products containing any references to magic No images/products with any reference to evolution..this includes dinosaurs No images/products containing guns or other weapons :)

"Nope." dont believe i was asking for your approval. with your ingenious reasoning, i could post a picture in the galleries of anything offensive and/or illegal -- for example child pornography -- and it would be the viewer's fault for clicking on the thumbnail.

Wrong. If it's illegal it won't be here.

"i dont think what i suggested is so complicated." I agree and will not push my luck any further while we are in agreement. Now fire up the petition and I'll sign it. I also nominate you for the thankless but necessary job of being the categorization mod. I may not agree with some of your assignments but as long as I can set my filters to unrestricted and see everything, I'll be happy. Now Spit, Blackhearted and I are in some degree of agreement, the Palestinians and Israelis had a tenuous truce last time I checked - don't complicate things. Besides, your list is woefully incomplete we'd need: No images/products with fur or meat No images/products with gay/lesbian/transgender themes No images/products with swarthy folk (possible terrorists) No images/products with damage to the environment No images/products with nude animals No images/products with nude Vicki and no proof she is 18+ No images/products with intelligent non-human lifeforms No images/products with unpatriotic themes No images/products with Bush twins gone wild oil wrestling No images/products with Sadam unless bestiality is featured No images/products with "There was a young man from Nantucket..." I'm surprised that a good American like you would forget these basic taboos. But wait a minute, maybe you're not an American. Let me see your passport. I think Atty. Gen. Ashcroft would like to have a few words with you.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

""There's no need to refer to other peoples' children as brats". Oh my. Another word stricken from our vocabulary. Before long we won't be able to even THINK because we'll have no words left."

Interesting that simple respect for others eludes so many.

...... Kendra

Kendra: If it were just a matter of simple respect I wouldn't bat an eyelash. lmckenzie: My list is some of the actual items that are removed from textbooks and tests in America.

It seemed like a matter of respect to me - and still does looking back on the text... and I'm one of those who advocates "if you don't want to be offended by flesh don't look at nudity" and "parents have to take SOME responsibility for their children - this includes filtering suspect images where there's an option to do so". There's still IMHO no need to refer to other people's children en masse, without any information on said children except that their parents would rather keep the mental pollution to a minimum, as "brats" - there's no basis to suggest that the term is applicable. To suggest otherwise seem disingenuous. Oh yes - and I think I disagree with lumping "Adult" (above and beyond nudity) in with "Violence". There seems to be little correclation between the two to me, beyond restricting access by minors - in which case chnging "nudity" to a simple age setting (or a number of age settings if need be) in keeping with movie ratings might be the way to go. Cartoon "Tom and Jerry" type violence might still be problematical in "scoring" however.

Respect? No, I don't think so. It's a matter of being conditioned to look for offense whether it exists or not. "Brats" as a word is not offensive in and of itself since it's often used affectionately as well. It's not just the speaker who has to take responsibility, the listener must too.

well, ill have to agree there 'brats' was a term that originally referred to the children of career military servicemen (who lived on base, or were stationed abroad). it then became used to describe basically an 'unruly kid', or a mischievous one. given the context, id hardly find it offensive. noone said 'your kid is a little brat'.. hell i used the term in my latest gallery image, stating i had to hurry to take the picture because a bunch of little brats were coming up the steps and i wanted to snap it before they started running around all over the place. i dont think many parents got offended by the use of the word - thats taking things overboard. we can sit here and debate whats offensive and whats not for years and never get anywhere. this is the internet - you can argue forever and youll NEVER convince anyone that youre right or theyre wrong.. or get anywhere other than slowly deteriorating into a flamewar. i dont agree with the viewpoint thats being stated over and over that 'who defines what is offensive or not'... 'the word brat is offensive', 'cussing is offensive', etc. and comparing it to the image that started this thread. i dont think these are anywhere near in the same category - its like saying jaywalking and armed robbery are the same because theyre both crimes... and if stricter laws are put in place against armed robbery than jaywalking, some form of 'discrimination' or unjust subjectivity is taking place. pfft.

You have to consider the source. Look up the source in this thread and you'll see that insult was the objective.

Now that doesn't mean people have to take it as an offense, by no means. But that doesn't change the fact that it's, originally, a lack of respect no matter how you spin it.
My comment was a statement of fact. There is a lack of respect on many levels in this thread. Taking something public that could have been dealt with privately is one (although the image didn't belong, should have been pulled and I understand the outrage). Calling names (childish as it is) is another. Berating people who would like the nudity filter, something this site provides and people are used to having, used is yet another popular disrespect people exercise without thinking.

Everyone wants their way or the highway. But you have to consider Renderosity's position. Isn't the age for joining around 14? That means they have to keep around a Pg13 type of "rating" or content. Most of the gallery goes beyond that but despite the fact that the parents are the ones who should decide and control if their teens participate, Renderosity can't just jump to an X without a front page warning. And since R'osity has established a certain "rating" of a sort, people expect that. Originally it was said no nudity in product thumbnails (at least when I first logged on), that has changed and as long as the filter is used properly shouldn't be a problem. Simple nudity has become more accepted but graphic sexual nudity, if I understand the image Blackhearted described, is not suited here and someone complaining of such shouldn't be hounded for it. Banner ads we have no choice in and shouldn't contain the nudity I've seen lately without the option to filter it. And none of this has to do with anyone being a "prude" but rather wanting consistancy with the rating of content that this site has already established.

...... Kendra

i dont agree with the viewpoint thats being stated over and over that 'who defines what is offensive or not'... 'the word brat is offensive', 'cussing is offensive', etc. and comparing it to the image that started this thread. I agree, there's a vast difference between imges containign nudity and offensive messages/words. I can filter out "adult images" that contain nudity with the click of a button. I cannot "filter out" offensive language or cleverly veiled insults. Although it'll be some time before this impacts me (my child is currently too young to read sentences) when it does I shall immediately find unfilterable offensive text more objectionable than the filterably nudity. Because only the text will be able to get through. No one individual is able to dictate what any other individual will or will not find offensive, or to what measure.

theres a lot of subjectivity in anything like this thread. if you want to play games, you can get by with loopholes in the TOS (like i see many people doing with their banner ads). so, for example, while according to the 'no nudity' rule in banner ads my banner at the top of this thread may be pulled because it shows the silhouette of a buttock, someone could render a nude woman with sheer lace over her breasts and claim that it is not nude, since shes wearing clothing (even though the nipples show through, or the bra is the size of a postage stamp). in the end i trust the rosity mods and admins and their judgement on things like this - even though ive been on BOTH sides of the issue (requesting an image be considered for TOS violations, and also having my own image pulled for it). i can understand both sides, and while i trust the rosity admins and mods and their opinion, i still think that the rosity TOS/policies need a bit of tweaking so that there isnt such debate every time something like this pops up. "Taking something public that could have been dealt with privately is one (although the image didn't belong, should have been pulled and I understand the outrage)" yeah, i agree. again, my apologies to insomniaworks for not taking this up privately, posting this thread was a big mistake. not because i regret the discussion that ensued - i think its more or less constructive... but because his product happens to be in the middle of it. its hard to post a thread without citing SOME examples, however, and my images/ads have been used as examples by many and i never get offended by that and just join in the debate. if i thought for a second that this thread would hurt his sales i would not have posted it - and i dont think that it did. its just an example.. but yeah i realise after the way it went, and the tone i started it on, that it could have been done far more tactfully and if i ever post anything like this again ill keep that in mind. as for keeping things private - i usually try (you would not believe the amount of crap i get sucked into in IMs and emails).... ive tried resolving things on a merchant-to-merchant, and merchant-to-customer level before through polite IMs, and have had some pretty negative experiences and total inaction. the last one i recall was after one of my products had been on the market for months, and i had spent considerable effort promoting it, another merchant (the majority of whose products bear uncanny similarities to mine) was going to upload a similar product with the exact same name... i discreetly and politely asked that they use another name in light of this, and they blew me off completely with a nasty response. so sometimes the 'discreet approach' only backfires. cheers, -gabriel

Sadly I ahve to agree that sometimes private is pointless - or worse. the one benefit to public exchanges, however ill-advised they may sometimes appear, is that one MIGHT get an open hearing/debate on whatever the issue is. While that can sometimes be clouded by canny (not to say outright sly or combatant) members, it seems to usually resolve amicalby-ish and fairly. At least, from what I've seen (and I'd so LOVE to see a public reaction to some of the IM comments I've received!)

I agree 100% that the non-verbal/non-visual nature of this form of communication leads to many misunderstandings. It's also just difficult to determine whether someone you really don't know except though this medium is joking or who might be upset by the joke, however well intentioned. I don't know about the brats thing but I've on occasion referred to children as 'little buggers,' without meaning to imply that they were sodomites. As they say, to err is human... "My list is some of the actual items that are removed from textbooks and tests in America." Heck spit, half the ones on my list probably are too. Add talking animals as well. Somewhere people wanted 'Charlotte's Web' pulled because, well I guess because talking spiders just ain't right. illusions, my nomination of Blackhearted was semi-humorous (forgot the smiley face). I was serious though in saying that the categorizations don't matter to me. Given my skill level, any gyno-goodies I made would be so incomprehensible I dare anyone to be offended by them. If they want to label it 'Pervert's Paradise' and stick lace nighties in there, as long as I can see it. From my PoV, it's a reasonable compromise. I'm sure it's not the ideal for either side but it sure beats the alternative of not being able to see what I'm buying. Only once in a blue moon does anyone complain about an image being too violent or racist etc. but s e x. oy vey, it's a constant smouldering bed of ashes that flares up regularly. If Poser didn't do people, the problem wouldn't exist but then most of us probably wouldn't be here. People's emotions on the subject are strong and varied which is why, ultimately, I have to disagree with the jaywalking v. bank robbery anology. It's a continuom and making an ex cathedra pronouncement that everyone certainly must see that X if offensive and Y is not just isn't the way people operate. Saying that it is, at best, devalues the right of others to have their own opinions and feelings and at worst, it really does come off as rather an insult. At any rate, you dudes and dudettes keep at it if you like but bring in another horse, the original one is starting to smell quite rank now, and the flies are probably a health hazard.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"No one individual is able to dictate what any other individual will or will not find offensive, or to what measure". This is true. But at least with pictures there is some kind of definition involved. Lines are blurred only as to which of these belong to which offensive category. But being offended by words is different. Every word is fair game for the chopping block, not just a few. And the assumption lately is that everyone has the right to demand not to be offended even when the words aren't part of a personal attack. Taken to its logical conclusion we'll have to practically stop speaking.

To change the subject slightly: {It slipped past me for sure.} How does an image of one of the top-selling products "slip by" the testers AND the admins AND the people here... only to be "seen" when the product hits the top-selling slot? It reminds me of a debate awhile back about some "adult" pose sets for sale. Those were approved by testers (presumably they looked at the sales images) and uploaded for sale. These pose sets also made it to the top selling slots... until someone complained that they were too "adult" for the site. The product testers didn't think the set was too "adult" and the admins were happy to have another top-selling item (and all the money from the sales). So, why are these products only pulled when someone complains? How can they make it so far into the sales process if they are against the TOS? Answer: they're not. As long as the product sells (and sells well), the admins will keep the product in the store until someone complains. Don't believe me? Keep a very close eye on the top-sellers. Soon, there will be another "adult" product... which will be removed immediately after someone complains... and, again, raising the question about how it got to the top-seller list in the first place.

There is a lack of respect on many levels in this thread. Taking something public that could have been dealt with privately is one (although the image didn't belong, should have been pulled and I understand the outrage). this is so wrong. there was nothing to be dealt with privatley, no one was asking that it be removed, so much as discussing WHY it is there to begin with and WHAT that means in the MP, that was the point of the thread. the forum is a place for discussion, the point of this thread was to DISCUSS the morals or ethics or whatnot of adult content, and its extent, both shown and viewed here at rosity using a couple examples. you are way exaggerating, there is NO outrage. no RAGE, at least on gabe's part, at all. just mere concern as members, and as merchants. ya'll gotta stop twisting things and changin subjects and take a freakin chill pill before these posts continue. there is no need to be nasty. DISCUSS! not FIGHT! BEHAVE! or i will come and EAT you!!!

Hey, Gabrial, no apolgies needed. Don't want to be a jerk, but this debate increased my sales significantly. I don't really think my product was really in the middle of this...I don't see it that way. It was just the spark that lit this fire. I am a modeler as I stated before and most of my time is spent on study and creation. Don't be surprised that this previously unknown modeler, becomes one of the top merchants here. I deserve to be because I am putting a lot of work into it and lots of creative thought. In other words, I would be too busy to even read a thread such as this, but it involves me and I really don't understand a few things, people are saying though and I wanted to point them out. First of all, I didn't get sneak through any loopholes. I also have to add that I am new to the 3Dmodeling world and I am getting to know this community for the first time. So, keep in mind that I am a new merchant also. I have no past experience to really draw from. As, I said before, I emailed ClintH with the product plans and asked him for the guidelines. He refered me to the TOS and, make no mistake, I followed them to the T. There was nothing in the TOS to warent the removal of my image. Secondly the picture in question was submitted at the time I submitted the product, it passed through product testing. You have to understand, I made this product to meet the expectations of my testers. I ended up making this product capable of doing "much much" more than I would need for my own personal purposes. After making this figure capable of doing so much, I wanted to post and image of just how much this product would do, because to my knoledge, there is no other genital so realistic. I simply chose to build a product that would be highly popular and be the best of its kind. I have never said anything distasteful in my advertisment. I explained the products attributes, thats all. As for that picture in question, it was not a setting that I would call erotic or sexy. It was clinical, like it or not. Some even assume that this was some attempt at artwork, it was not. It was the most effective way to portray my product's many attributes in one 800x800 pixel image. It wouldn't have made any difference if I had used a doctors wall for a back drop for the images. No TOS violations were made by this product or it's advertising. Someone said in reply to my last message in this thread that it was okay for History Channel to show naked woman walking around Hugh Heffner's house with out being greyed out, because children would not be likely to be watching the History Channel. Well, how likeley then that children would be looking around the Renderosity market place. If I had a child, hope to someday have someday, I would't let him/her into Renderosity to begin with. Its already an adult site, accept it or not, but we are all adults here, why can't we all accept it. Renderosity is an adult site. No, it's not hardcore or bad as that, but, with out question it is for adults. So why do poeple follow volunterly follow my little thumbnail within the market place(there are no banner adds as of yet), when they are told in advance that it is genitalia, object to seeing the product????????????????? There are plenty of products that I never look at each time I look into the market place because I have no interest in them. My product though in some people's opinion, shouldn't be aloud to be in the market place because it violates their values. So instead of ignoring the little thumb, because it does not interest them, they go and look at it and complain that they got to see it. Don't blame Renderosity for this! Don't blame me for this! TOS was not violated. My product is not rude or crude, its is a realistic part of the anatomy that has been masterfully modeled. It is only because it violates some people's values that my product can no longer be portrayed in the advertising. Thats all, don't try to make it more than that. I hope I don't make any enimies here, but its about time I did say something in my own defence. I probably should just let this fire burn out with out stoking it up again, but, I couln't help but voice my own opinion. God Bless America thank you, marty-insomniaworks

Well good news for you all the few poeple that have complained. I just got an email from ClintH, he was nice but, he said the male Genital that is almost finished will probably not be aloud in the market place. I probably will not market it anywhere else either. I think I could use some support here. Did anyone send ClintH letters that supported me or were they all bad? thank you, marty-insomniaworks

I was on my way to my page to consider changing the images that already exist there. I am afraid that those images will come into question soon. But on my way there, I see this banner add. The message it sentto me is that male pubic hair sticking out of underwear is okay for a banner add where anyone could see it, but sex organs will probably be excluded from the market place for now on because of this little rukis.

Oh, thank you so much for your support illusions, and the praise you gave my product. It was really a lot of hard work and I am proud that I made it. I had planned to build G3II in the next 6 months, this one would be twice as good as the first, but don't know anymore. marty-insomniaworks

no i doubt anyone here sent any letters to clint. even if rosity is deemed an adult site due to content up already, thats not the image i think rosity wants of the site. its hard for us artists to see that images like that and certain banner ads etc, may seem innocent to us as being 3d and all, but to people who dont use this medium or know little about it and its uses its very easy for them to think them as pornographic...esp with such realistic textures nowadays some might find it hard to determine 3d from photos, etc.

with this in mind, you have to understand how rosity is growing now, much more publicity, and so many new memers and just visitors who know little to nothing about poser art/products. a banner ad with the word erotic and sexy, let alone with pics of such description, could easily cause some frowns on people who come here thinkin its a "family" oriented art site. And ive actually seen/met a number of people under the age of 15 around here..but the point is, it really doesnt matter what the ages are or what you as parents would allow your child to see or not to see, its about the image rosity wishes to portray of itself. They dont mean to ban certain things as a personal attack on anyone or anyone's products, they are just looking out for their best interest...if rosity's own are complaingin about a certain thing, imagine what other visitors and new members who arent used to seeing things liek this around here might be thinking.

this has been a long debate and we've all read posts where people are complaining about what bosses/wives say when they are looking over shoulders... i remember someone sayin their wife was asking what they were doing at a porn site...People whove come here to join, but see certain ads/images or whatever and changing their minds... As artists used to seeing these images and products, knowing they are just 3d etc, we dont see these things through the same eyes as others, so that doesnt really make us fair judges. and again, in the end, it all comes down to rosity's image.

so in that, i dont think it would be a bad idea to exclude sexual organs from the store from now on, if that came to be...doubtful, but hey- image is everything, whether these products make the most money for the site or not, if people are getting offended or confused about what the site is really about then i would think that would take priority.

I think what gabe was getting at in starting this thread is this: Yes we all know that sexual items are always top sellers here, so what does that say about the site's orientation and how it is viewed by the public, whether members or not? it has little to do with just this specific product, more about all of them in general, this just happened to be an example. i mean really its not even just the picture, a product like that will cause frowns and get people complainin no matter what, just because of what it is and that it is here, whether you go to look at the pics or not. Because whether you agree or not, there have been people who have thought rosity was associated with pornographic material because of this type of content, and i really dont think rosity wants an association like that. its nothin personal.

If these products sell so hot then im sure they will elsewhere as well. For example, im not sure of the popularity of the rotica store now(esp when people are buying sexual items here), but if rosity were to exclude these items from the MP so people would have to put them up elsewhere like rotica, they will still sell. and i would think rotica is just the place to shop for things liek this.

again i doubt it will come to that, i mean they are top sellers so they are makin rosity the most money, thats hard to say no to. but at least that way no one could be offended by anything and rosity can keep up its PG-13 image.

This shouldnt be turned into a war over who thinks it is offensive or not, or that some people would find vulgar language as if not more offensive or not..we've all been brought up differently in different areas around the world and will all have a different idea of what is offensive to us or not. There are just some things that are still not publicly acceptable, ok wrong word, "likeable", "overlookable", whatever in any culture... you'll get a different reaction hearing the word fuck on a street than you would seeing a person walking down one holding up a poster of a close up genital shots. theres a reason why naughty mags are covered over on newstands. and why DAZ refuses such products.

as long as such sexual content is allowed here there will always be wars and rants over why we cant have this but we are allowed to do that, constant fighting and debate, all comin down on the admins. its here in the first place because this is a community and rosity is way guilty of always trying to make everyone happy. but as long as its up there will always be this debate, and the majority of us are sick of it. If these types of sexual content are removed then i see little for people to complain about- other than "wah wah thats not fair". you have plenty of places to sell elsewhere, rotica to cater to that specific audience esp, so your products will still sell... little left to be offended by at rosity, rosity keeps up a nice image, wars over offensive material and people getting frustrated at complaints will die down.

Marty knew that his product would probably offend people, and hed probably get complaints, even tho he tried his best to stay within guidelines. guidelines or not that type of material, and i dont just mean the promos, i mean the product themselves no matter how much work went into them, will always end up offending a good number of people, members or not.if somethin has the slightest chance at being labeled pornographic, someone will do it...and rosity takes the blame for havin the material up, more than the creator does.

rosity wants a certain image maintained of itself, and i think a lot of members/merchants here would like the same.

Well, Marty, you've made me break my personal vow not to contribute anymore to this badnwidth hog. I have to say that you have certainly been a gentleman throughout this and I think you summed it up about as well as can be done. I know that there are many people who will regret losing the opportunity to purchase your products here. I hate to fault Renderosity, but it does seem suspiciously like they are content to make as much money as possible off a product and then yank it when someone complains. As in your case, the TOS are meaningless if you fold like a cheap wallet at the first sign of dissent. Animotions is a "family" site, always has been. I think Renderosity is caught in an identity conflict, trying to be all things to all people and folks like you end up getting screwed. I think really, this is a site for adults and older children who's parents don't mind them seeing any more than they'd see in an art museum or at the beach when they have the filter set. Realistically though, there will always be some who still use any reason for limiting what the adults can see to their own level of comfort. I don't understand that, never have and probably never will. I suppose those on the other side of the argument are equally perplexed at my attitude. It's like Jerry falwell sitting down with Anton LaVey (founder of the Church of Satan) to discuss religion - pretty much a waste of time. I really hope that you take a break and consider your options. Certainly you can sell at Renderotica, Thralldom and probably other sites as well. Heck, find a cheap business host and set up a PayPal account - sell the stuff yourself and keep most of the money. Whatever you do, don't keep your talent to yourself. If you do that then you've truly let other people impose their values on you. As I now find myself frequently quoting... "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Emiliano Zapata

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"Marty knew that his product would probably offend people, and hed probably get complaints, even tho he tried his best to stay within guidelines." Honestly, I didn't forsee complaints, especially after Perfect G has been out there for about 4 months. I also didn't have to to my best to stay within guidelines either, because I did stay within guidelines. There was no effort involved. I don't really believe that anything was overlooked by the Renderosity Staff either, such as the product type or the advertising. My guess is that they were willing to take a risk on it just as I was and new full well what it was being marketed and what was in the advertising material. But, I am also sure that the Staff at Renderosity don't want this controversy, I know I wouldn't. My guess is they will let this product stay in the market place and be extra cautious of what they let into the market place in the future. I don't blame them for that now.

Hey, Emiliano Zapata I am not going to stop modeling for Renderosity. By no means, afterall, there are ownly 2 sex organs to model. There is soon to come out a series of clothing for vicki3. I am having some UV mapping issues to iron out before you see them out there though. Give me a week or two. I will consider what you said about a different market place for sex organs, but for now I am putting all my effort into the getting some quality clothing in the MP. marty-insomniaworks

theres a reason why naughty mags are covered over on newstands.

They really do that????

"I think it was simply a case of Gabe pointing it out to Clint...and Clint removing it realizing it should have never gone up in the first place." i take offense to that since it implies some sortof behind-the-scenes communication between myself and the admins. i havent spoken to clint in over a month, nor have i IMed or emailed him. i havent spoken to any admins all year. so guess again... anything i had to say about this issue i said in this thread. you make it out like rio and i are the only ones disagreeing with you on this issue.. youre either very imperceptive, or deliberately trying to make it out like its only us two arguing against the entire body of rosity members by constantly stating it in every post of yours. scroll up and see how many people support the decision and think its inappropriate... and also keep in mind that the advocates of content such as was removed will always be more vocal. take candy from a baby and it will scream bloody murder. "Those that become offended or don't like the direction the site is taking will run to other communities as they have in the past. " those few who are so offended that a collage of spread labia was pulled can join the other disgruntled ex-rosity members at poserpros and spend their days bitching at what a horrible oppressive place this is because it has a few rules and standards. "theres a reason why naughty mags are covered over on newstands." yeah theyre usually in plastic baggies, or behind the counter, or on the top shelf behind other mags... all tactics to keep them out of the hands of those who shouldnt have access to them - namely underage kids. im far from a prude -- when i have a kid i dont care if he looks at playboy mags, its pretty much just softcore, artistic admiration of the female figure. but there are some mags out there that are highly inappropriate for the underaged. ermm.. so i hear :)

dude. enough. DIE THREAD! DIE!!!!

"ya'll gotta stop twisting things and changin subjects and take a freakin chill pill before these posts continue. there is no need to be nasty. "

Since you were quoting me when you wrote this I'll respond as such.
I'm not twisting anything around. It has been a productive conversation because it has dealt with the consistancy of this site. Luckily the subjects sales have gone up but that could have easily gone the other way. Gabe was outraged enough over the banners going back under the non-nudity rule months ago to insult customers, whether he knew it or not, and had banner ads that didn't really fall under the "too nude" category pulled. His reasons for posting this public and using one of his banned ads tells me he compared the two issues. AND I said I understood it!
Because the issue is consistancy it should be discussed but there is still someone in the middle who should be considered. This time it worked out fine but taking product issues public is still, in my opinion not the best way to handle something. And believe it or not, I agreed with Gabe in this more than I wanted to.

...... Kendra

marty,Must say you have acted and responded with a great deal of class and in a very professional manner through out this issue.It's good to hear you say you will continue your work for the MarketPlace. Too many good merchants,artist,and members have been driven from Renderosity by "the vocal few". Renderosity is a good place...work with and deal with the admin/management.... ...accept threads like this for what they really are. SWAMP

Marty; I agree with SWAMP on that. Just got your gen set a couple of days ago, and am starting to play with it. Some potential there when doing nudes, that's for sure. And can't wait to see what the tackle for Vincent is like. I have Digiport's stuff, but the more the merrier.... :)

Well, I am still waiting for the "no banner ads" filter to be implemented. I've been begging for THAT one since they first put the stupid, annoying, useless things up there at the top of the screen. mumble, mutter, gripe Kate (Death to Banner Ads!!!! especially ANIMATED ones)

Might as well hope for add free television, newspapers, magazines, radio, elevators etc. Withn the internet, the cost is minimal and even though most people hate them, I'm sure enough sales are generated to make them profitable. Spmeone must be buying those email penis enlargement scams or they would have died by now. At least the banners here are artistic, except for the ones that are obscene :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

um, Gabe? The perverts like myself that like to do explicit erotica, we didn't run to Poser Pros, we ran to Renderotica, long long long before Poser Pros was ever on the radar screen. I have been through two site closings of Renderotica and I'm still hanging in there, over there, posting my artwork there that cannot be posted here. I've done quite a few of these crotch shots... quite explicit work. I've even modeled a low poly vulva for a game. I've been told my labia are beautiful too... even considering recreating them as a model. Heh. Won't that be something. g I am actually quite proud of the genitalia I was born with! And its art when I portray it. I don't like obscenity, but I see that my yardstick for obscenity is a lot more liberal. And genital props can be used for porn. But porn can be art. In fact, quite beautiful art. One of my very favourite Poser artists of all time is an erotica artist going by the handle IlGeco, he posts at Renderotica. Porn doesn't have to be obscene. I prefer to call it erotica, as that's what I really do. I do take offence to people mischaracterising what I do as obscene, as it is NOT. However, Renderosity has rules governing what is allowed here on this site, and I follow them to the letter. I do not post sexually explicit art here. I'll repeat what I said over there, though. "Personally, I don't see why there's this us vs. them attitude anyway, I spend time happily participating at Renderosity, Renderotica, Commune, Gayposerart, and Poser Pros... and I'm very happy at all of these places." That means, I'll continue buying from you Gabe, right here at Renderosity. I'll continue buying from merchants at Poser Pros, too. And I'll continue buying from Renderotica, Daz, Commune... I have no beef with any of these places. I think its unhealthy to have one, too... And I will CONTINUE to be happy at all of these places I mentioned. I am just as happy at Renderosity as I am happy at Poser Pros. No need for stoking any site war flames. take care, Robin (aka bijou)

Robin, I second you opinion on Il Geco's talent. It's really rather a shame that more people can't see it because the subjects are beyond their definition of art. As for your contemplated recreation, Playboy's been claening up for years with "The Girls of the Ivy Leage," "The Girls of Hawaiian Tropic," and who knows what else. "The Labia of Poser Girls" would probably be a great hit in the Renderosity store - oops! excuse me, some other depraved internet sleazepit.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Okay, I'm just getting sick of being notified. I thought this thread was dead now, since the mods SAID for everyone to just stop...

Kreations By Khrys

Uncheck email notification and pray. I'll do the same and if we meet here again, it didn't work :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I came here off an offsite link, I had left the thing long ago but as I saw that it had been posted elsewhere... I figured it was time to throw in what I thought about it, as I happen to be one of these members that do erotic art, that post at many sites, including Rotica and Poser Pros as well as over here, and say it here so its seen in the right place. As most of the members of these sites are actually happy members of many different sites like me, I believe its unfair to make people think they should feel they are somehow 'disloyal' or 'unartistic' just because they happen to do a different kind of art or visit more than one site. Its simply untrue that people that find themselves booted by the tos here regarding erotic art go to Poser Pros. I regularly see these people crop up at Renderotica! And I welcome them with open arms. That's the truth. I see genitals as simply another part of my anatomy. I'm not smooth between the legs like Victoria, and neither is any other real woman... how much as some of us would like to pretend we are. Its not sleazy, its simply natural. I guess I subscribe more than a little bit to the Betty Dodson style feminism. glad someone agrees with me about IlGeco :) He rocks! I'm telling ya, that guy has a fan club!

It didn't work, dimmit!

Kreations By Khrys

do what I do, just delete the emails if its something you don't want to read. I personally don't see my reply as anything problematic. If you don't want to read what I have to say, I suggest - don't. as for me, I have every right to reply when its my kind of art being diminished, in fact... someone with our interests (and I do mean our... khrys... you're on another erotic site I visit) should reply sanely and quit pretending we have interests in erotic artwork... only way it becomes accepted as a legitimate artform ...and maybe these threads will become a thing of the past. As nobody will care about the busybodies anymore. Live and let live, I say.

quit pretending we DONT have interests in erotic artwork... argh, where is the edit button when you need it. I won't be replying anymore, I just wanted my thoughts in the right place, as Gabe and others wouldn't see anything I wrote on PP, as they don't go there. and again, don't read it if you don't want to see what I have to say. Thats what your delete key is for.

Bijou... I think the topic is dead. Please let it die. Deleting the emails doesn't work when they're filling your inbox.

Kreations By Khrys

I have read the threads here and there on this. I have not taken the time to read every single opinion. I do not feel I need to. This whole converstation is based on one original statement and therefore it is to it that I reply. Blackhearted is one of my all time favorite merchants anywhere for Poser items. Some of my best and favorite work has come from using Aeris and Nia. Both extremely fabulous products, both very real. Now as for the current complaint, why does this bother anyone? There are the conservative right wing people who claim that it's all about what it is, there are the liberal arguing that its all natural and/or freemarket, and there are those in the middle of the road stating that it was totally how it was promoted. Blackhearted, you seem to fall in the middle from what I've read. Why? What's the problem? Do you think even for one second I would have purchased Aeris, or begged for Nia as a birthday present if I had not seen extreme detail in your product shots? Nope, not on your life. And look what I'd be missing out on. I would have bought the old Genitalia morph hip replacement for Vicky or V3 if I could have seen how well it worked and looked. Not because I am a perv or want to do explicit images, simply because when you do a natural nude pose and the Genitalia should be atleast somewhat exposed on Vic, you see a crease in the mesh and that's it. Not very realistic, and those of you that know me know I push Poser as hard as I can to avoid post work, and I'd rather not post work a gental region anyway. So now, rather than the customer simply being able to go to the product, see what it is, how it works, what it can do... We all have to go chasing after the creator and get an image emailed and wait till all of that goes through before making a purchase. Alright. Fine. So be it. Guess from here out we should have to email every merchant for mor detailed images of what their product is? We should have to go through hours of waiting for reply emails and IMs so that we can make up our mind if we want to buy their product? shakes head So why do we have a market place if this is what it ends up coming to? Because, it shouldn't be that way! The market place is there so we CAN see EXACTLY what we are buying. We work dilligently to create a product. Work even harder to make sure we properly represent it so that it actually sells. And then... It get's slammed for properly representing itself? I actually think this is the worst part of the whole problem. Not that it was shown for what it was, or that it was what it was, but that because of everyone thinking their thoughts on it were more important than someone else's work, it has been altered in it's marketing. I have yet to buy it, and I may or may not, but now I have to go through the hassle of finding out what it is before I can even make up my mind. Cheers insomniaworks, kudos on being as kuel about all of this as you have been. I myself may have come unglued. Blackhearted, I still love your work and will continue to purchase, but your reasoning seems a bit askew on this one.

The market place is there so we CAN see EXACTLY what we are buying. We work dilligently to create a product. Work even harder to make sure we properly represent it so that it actually sells. And then... It get's slammed for properly representing itself? this was soooo not the point of this thread. we are not sayin thats wrong or anything at fault with that or him or anyone who makes genital props and such and blah blah blah. NOT. its about the ethics, for lack of better locution, of products like this being here. some feel a line should be drawn. we are NOT sayin you are wrong so do NOT tell us we are. gabe was just expressin a concern, a community concern, not pointing fingers, not starting a witch hunt, not singling out anyone, not starting a war, not saying theres anythign wrong with the products or people who make them or why they are made, just that some of us feel that they might not be appropriate for the image of rosity, the avg rosity member, or future member or whatever...we are not criticizing you for your opinion, so you should not be doing so to his. not everyone is as liberal as some of you are. you need to remember that. and remember this is a community where the majority of people here may not think genital props or images acceptable at this particular site. its nothign personal. stop twisting things around and let this stupid thread die.

Marty,

Please consider marketing your more "explicit" products at Renderotica. Our market isn't small. We have over 80,000 members. And you can show your products in as much detail as you need to to sell them properly.

Everyone else,

I know everyone wants this thread to die, but I do have to make one comment. It seems to me that there indeed should be some standard here. If products like genital props are going to be allowed in the Marketplace here, then their features should be allowed to be shown. If it isn't OK to show them, then it seems extremely hypocritical to sell them. Yeah, sure, they make money for this site. But how is it OK to sell something you won't allow to be shown in simple ad renders, let alone in the galleries?

I own two sites. Renderotica and AniMotions. AniMotions is geared to the comic, video game and anime audience and we do not sell sexual content there, nor do we allow nudity in the galleries or the thumbnails in the store. We do allow nudity on textures and characters where it is a selling point of the product and we have a warning on the storefront to that effect. On the other hand, Renderotica is a site that caters to adults and contains mostly erotic content. Because we do not allow postings of children on that site, we don't sell anything made from the milkids or for the milkids there.

Sure, we could probably make more money by selling sexual content on AniMotions and milkids on Renderotica (the audiences are different), but we choose not to sell things that don't represent what we see as the image of each site.

I don't buy the, it's OK because it makes money, but it's not OK to show the product features because, well, someone might be offended. I saw those product shots, and while I was shocked that rosity allowed them considering the general image of this site, I was not offended by them. And I'm a woman.

As another woman, I had no problems with the promo image. I totally agree with DTHUREGRIF- "If products like genital props are going to be allowed in the Marketplace here, then their features should be allowed to be shown. If it isn't OK to show them, then it seems extremely hypocritical to sell them.....I don't buy the, it's OK because it makes money, but it's not OK to show the product features because, well, someone might be offended." That is what Renderosity really needs to think about. If you're going to allow this stuff, it should receive the same treatment as everything else- the promo picture was not porn, just a promo picture showing the morph details. If you're going to have problems with the Promotional images then you shouldn't allow it to be sold at all, and take your financial losses.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

As long as people are polite and don't violate the TOS, there's no reason for the thread to go away as long as anyone cares to keep posting to it. Tired of reading it, don't click on the links in the ebots. Aagain, a simple answer - don't want to see it, don't click. Rio, I appreciate your thoughts. Ypu've neatly summed up the issue. I really see this as no different than smoking or loud music or any of the fractious issues people in a community deal with. Usually after some (often contentious) debate, they reach some kind of compromise - smoking/non-smoking, no lud music after 10 pm, etc. I think that's the way things should work. As a "liberal" (your characterisation) on the issue my ONLY problem with the "conservative" side is that their idea of compromise usually means not reasonable regulation or restriction but banning that with which they disagree.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Gab, I really enjoy work, you're one of my favorite artists here, but you and I have both, in fact, been in violation of the TOS several times: The TOS states: 1)No Rape. 2)No Torture. 3)No Sexual acts. 4)No Physical arousal. 5)No Genital contact with ANY object, other than sitting or clothing. 6)No depictions of young humanoid characters in erotic, seductive, provocative poses or context. 7)No character attacks, which could be interpreted as defamation of character, slander, and libelious. (I think they meant libelous - to my knowledge libelous is not a word) Anyway, take Nia for example. Someone could easily say that she looks like a 14-16 year old (young humanoid). Of course, I don't see it and obviously you don't, but once we begin stating what we deem is acceptable we enter difficult territory. Such judgments are always based on personal bias and, therefore always open to a gaping field of interpretation. Here's an example from my own gallery: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=404367&Start=1&Artist=Omadar&ByArtist=Yes Is she in violation of the TOS? To some perhaps, by the definitions set by the TOS she: 1) Could be aroused. 2) Could be making contact with her genitals (whether it's visible or not - one could look at the image and claim why else would her hand be in the vicinity). I'm not knocking you at all, but I am trying to prove a point. We cannot possibly follow the TOS as it is written. The TOS is, simply, far too vague. Renderosity needs to clearly define what is and what is not acceptable on their site. That said, you have to consider that every other image in the Poser gallery is an expressionless, stock V3 showing her breasts to the world. Is there really a point to having a TOS on this site? A few people were discussing what is and what is not considered pornography. For the record, here is the correct definition: Webster's defines pornography as: 1) writings, pictures etc., intended to primarily arouse sexual desire. 2) the production of such writings, pictures etc. That's the simple definition. There is nothing profound or complicated about it. You could be looking at photo of a fully clothed woman/man and if you are the least bit aroused it becomes pornography; this too is a matter of choice. I get turned by looking a woman's feet; most people would not find this the least but pornographic - but according to the correct definition it is. I, in fact, made it pornographic. People often confuse pornography with what they find personally find sexually offensive or distasteful - the two couldn't be further apart. Anyway back to your post. I personally blame DAZ for this mess. I cannot fathom why they did not include female genitalia in their products; it's beyond absurd. Many people use Victoria for purposes other than creating pin-up's. Medical illustrators rely on such products to expedite their work. I'm sure all them are wondering why Michael comes with all his parts, but Victoria is somewhat sexless. Alas, consumers have little choice but to buy the extra parts. Certainly they have a right to see what the product looks like before they purchase it. Cheers

"The TOS is, simply, far too vague. Renderosity needs to clearly define what is and what is not acceptable on their site." Sadly that's impractical. In all areas I've ever seen this kind of incredibly specific detail put in place it simply leaves gaping holes to work around - allowing people to follow the letter of the "rules" whilst completely abusing the spirit of such "rules". Take the age thing as a prime example - who is to say whether a certain V3 morph is 14,16,or 18? They're ALL under one year old, the mesh being designed last year. As a further illustration of how difficult it is to capture in words the content of an image - even whilst remembering that a picture is worth a thousand words - try describing your own face relative to Michael 2 / Victoria 3 base face. Very few facial features have ever even been named! Which make sit terribly difficult to describe a human face without imagery. And that's just one face, rather than trying to describe what Renderosity might find distateful about image sin general. You're right that, strictly, many images already violate the TOS because they seem, fairly blatantly, to be cheap attempt at tittilation and therefore pornography. Some may even be "good" tasteful attempts at "promoting a sence of arousal", shall we say. Renderosity seem to lean on the side of allowing rather than banning images, but their TOS provides the legal backing they may feel they require to allow them to remove images which are felt to "overstep the boundaries of good taste". That human judgement is involved also means that there WILL be disagreements on interpretation :( "1) writings, pictures etc., intended to primarily arouse sexual desire." You don't make images of feet pornography because you cannot change the INTENT of whoever produced the image. As to deciphering the intent of the artist, that's naturally going to be difficult and down to a judgement call. Cheers, Cliff

Mental note: 1) buy insomniaworks' vagina 2) buy blackhearted's Nia texture 3) convert Nia to fit V3 4) Use Nia texture on V3 with conforming vagina prop 5) post a render of same character naked wielding a sword 6) look for cat model with tits

Not everyone feels that sex and sexuality are obscene. Sex is what makes us. It is a good thing.

If I make a "Clint" morph will someone missread it and force it to be removed? LOL... Just kidding Clint... Joe

Very very funny Joe! (grin) Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

Very very funny Joe! Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

I like vulvas and viginas, and I like to look at them! I also buy such 3D obects here at osity and appreciate the ability to do so. The female anatomy is beautiful in every detail. Let's face it, women have couchies and guys have slongs, vaginas and penises if you want PC terms. If you don't like them, don't look at them and go on. I for one find all the angel post here annoying and often offensive but I don't complain. So simple skip over it if you don't want to see it, but in all fairness it should be allowed to be there for those of use who want to look! Wolfman pro couchie and anti sensorship;')

Me personally: I do not post here and I do not sell nor share here because of the way the duddley do-rights say and do things on this site. One day not to far off there will come something that will shadow these whinners.

THIS IS THE MOST MAGNIFICENT RESPONSE AND FREE MARKETING PLOY I HAVE SEEN HERE YET. YOU CAN BE SURE IM RUNNING TO THE DESK TO CREATE THE NEXT GENITAL MORPH, ILL MAKE SURE TO WRAP IT WITH ABSURD PACKAGING SO CLINT CAN REMOVE IT, AND WHILE YOU GUYS ARGUE OVER MORALS, ILL BE SWEEPING $20,000 UNDER THE BED...:)..GOOD GRIEF..

I'll buy that for a dollar;')

Daz should have included better genitalia in the first place. And while there at it, how about some articulations in the figures backs? I haven't been able to get V3's legs apart in a realistic way unless its small movement. I think Renderosity is just too G rated, take a look at what usually wins a renderosity "art contest", then don't be surprised at reactions about anything adult oriented. Candy canes and lolipops, that's what the TOS is all about. Renderotica has an entire check list of "yes/No" to different categories. That would be a good idea for Renderosity. Its all just another example of the hipocrasy of american society - horses farting in peoples faces is a-O.K., people eating intestines and rat eyeballs, pissing on each other, no problem (survivor series, I wonder when they will finally just make them eat shit), murder, black mail, rape, all show up on broadcast TV on a regular basis. All that said, if a picture offends you, JUST DON"T LOOK AT IT! Flogging a dead horse, ~WD

Wow, nothing like resurrecting a long-dead thread... bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Your right, I didn't realize how old the last post was. ~WD

LOL Bonnie! Aye, I never even did see this one, so guess I'll add my two sense. Better late than never. I agree with Gabe (shhhh and we don't always agree). I never saw anything distasteful in his ads or advertising. My daughter's teen mags have friggn Calvin Klein ads that are more revealing and as a father I have to wonder "why the hell!" do they promote crap like that in teen mags? Unfortunately, I understand, sex sells. However, it doesn't always make it artistic and it also has it's place. I believe Gabe was right when he said it should be at R'otica. Now, before those of you who support pornographic images go off on a tangent, let me explain a few things. First, "porn" can be defined as an image (or imagery) that incites sexual arousal. It's full intent is to do just that. I don't see the prupose of creating morphing genitalia unless it's intent is the same. Also, R'osity, is touted as a place that should be able to be visited by everyone unlike R'otica. So such products are more suitable at R'otica in my opinion. For example, although I don't like some of the Calvin Klein ads in my daughter's mags, I can tolerate them. However, if I saw full spreads from Hustler in my daughter's mags, I would friggn blow a gasket! Do I have a problem with Erotica or the sort? Certainly not, but it has no place in front of children who are just discovering and learning about their own bodies and don't need outside influences confusing certain behavioral aspects of their life. As an adult (if we are stable of mind) we are able to discern between things which are right and wrong, fantasy and reality and therefore do not let imagery guide us in our lives. Imagery and music can be powerful influences on the developing minds of the young. So do I shun my children from nudity? Absolutely not. But I teach them to be respectful and responsible. I create products and art which contain nude images, at times, and my children are popping in and out while I'm working quite a lot, but they understand the art behind it and discern between what is tasteful and what can be considered obscene. You wouldn't find me creating a genital prop in front of my kids and saying "hey dear, watch how her %^$* opens wide!" So, how i see it.... if I wouldn't put it in front of my kids, I wouldn't expect it to be viewable on a site my kids could access from my computer. I would expect it at R'otica. Just my opinion. ---Will

Its easy to forget that this is a public site, I realize now that some things should only be on adult sites. I interpted this as a censorship issue, and it is, but I agree that certain people will not want to view images of an adult nature, and probaly shouldn't. The TOS is there for a good reason. ~WD

My 2 cents: 1. Daz3D as well as others should have included genitals in their figures. Male or female or children it doesn't matter. How can they claim that their figures are realistic when they are missing important body parts? Funny how nobody tried to sue them for false claims :-) 2. I have seen the offending image. There are always people that dislike that kind of images but they have "nudity" switch and I don't have "blood and gore" or "zombie" or "freak" or "fetish" switch to prevent me from seeing zombies, freaks and such sh*t. When I am at it there is also no "lousy art" switch and there should be one. If they insist on banning images they dislike then I am sure many people will start insisting on censoring other "art" categories and this place soon won't be interesting to anyone. 3. Is there any money back policy here? Can you return the goods you have purchased if you are not satisfied with quality? How can you judge the texture quality and mesh detail without close-up renders? Will you base your buying decision solely on product title? If so why don't you base your watching decision on product title also? It is simple -- if it hurts your eyes then don't look at the Sun. 4. Quoting keihan: "First, "porn" can be defined as an image (or imagery) that incites sexual arousal." -- so if someone gets aroused by watching lace will you clasify it as porn? 5. The way I see it, only limited people deny existence of things they don't understand or approve and they even go as far as trying to destroy them. They will certainly use every opportunity to raise their "purist" and "awareness" rating by demanding genitals removed everywhere but they will silently ignore things like global warming and pollution or bad state politics. After seeing this thread it is obvious why Jesus was nailed to the tree for asking people to be more tolerant. Now excuse me, I have to crawl back under my stone...

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: WTF??? whats this place coming to?