Gawd I am confused. Check out the info on the new butterfly top oage Conflicting, huh??? I wish they would make it all clear once and for all - I have a voucher from a contest and I doubt if I can use it on this. ???

Sounds to me, that if your a Platinum Club member you can't use your voucher because your already getting it cheap. ;)

I may be wrong, but doesn't the Butterfly Top say it's a Platinum Club Only item? I could be wrong. I was just looking at it a few minutes ago, but I can't remember. Must do something about this Menopausal Blonde Disorder. :) Melanie

Well I thought you had to be a member to purchase PC stuff. Therefore, the two sentences on the image are contradicting each other. Don't feel bad melanie, I've got MBD also.

You can only buy platinum club only products if you are a platinum club member. You can't use vouchers to buy platinum club products. You can only use vouchers to buy Daz original products (not stuff brokered for anyone else) However, if you do have a platinum club membership, you get a discount on the Daz original item which is applied even if you pay with a voucher instead of real money. (I had a voucher from a competition myself the other day, so I had to check) Hope that helps, Shanna :-)

Yes, but read the sentences on the image. ""VOUCHERS MAY BE USED ON THIS PRODUCT"" ""EXCLUDES ITEMS AT PLATINUM CLUB PRICE"" If you can't use a voucher on this item, why is the first sentence even there???

Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com

Boy, that is awfully confusing isn't it? Well, I've corrected the gif for now so that you won't be confused anymore. ;) That product CAN be bought with normal vouchers. It cannot be purchased using a Platinum Club Voucher (meaning the $5 voucher Platinum club members get if they're on the new $7.95 per month payment plan). Hope that helps clear things up. Steve Kondris DAZ Productions, Inc.

Not really. That just makes it even more confusing now. Which vouchers are which, and what can they be used for, and how will we know? Why not just make all vouchers good for all DAZ Original and PC items?

Woo hoo, thanks. Going shopping now.

The Platinum Club Vouchers that are only good on non-Platinum Club items will appear on their own line in your account profile screen so that you can tell their balance easily from the others. Steve Kondris

Steve, In the other thread, you said that these ($5)vouchers could be used toward the monthly fee. Can you confirm that please?

Can you point me to the thread you're referring to, Momcat? I don't recall ever stating that any vouchers could be used towards the $7.95 monthly payment. Please clarify. Thanks, Steve Kondris

Will you please get your web person to get the darned templates up when they put a new product up. AGAIN - the btfly top template is a dead link.

And Anton, could you also tell Daniel to please put the Koshini and Ichiro gudes up when you get a chance? I feel like it's been forever since I made them and no one's been able to download them yet. Even Littlefox said she'd write to him and still nothing. Thanks. :) SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Hmmm,... Well, I can't find the template anywhere right off myself, and I'm the only one left here. I'll leave the webmaster a note on both of those items, the template for ac494 - Butterfly Top, as well as about SnowSultan's guides. Thanks for your patience guys, Steve Kondris

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1316691

"*68. Back to your Questions,.. by SKondris on 7/3/03 11:48 Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com Ok, we're about to send out a newsletter promoting the new setup and all the additional privileges gained by having a Platinum Club Membership. If you want to be up on all the latest happenings with DAZ, or get the first scoop on upcoming products, or have full-access to a Members Only Gallery and lots more, then becoming (or staying) a Platinum Club Member is a must for you. The new setup is going to destroy the barrier to entry of $100 that's always been a problem in the past. No one will have to save up $100 to become a member any longer. We feel that's a huge benefit to many of our customers. The ability to pay a much smaller monthly fee of $7.95 a month is much easier for most people to handle in our current economy - if you take advantage of the monthly $5 voucher, than your monthly fee drops to $2.95 a month. It doesn't get much cheaper than that, folks. :)...*" This would be the post I'm referring to; and the source of my confusion over the difference in the vouchers.

Ah, I see how that could be easily misunderstood. In that post I was trying to illustrate how the monthly fee of $7.95 is diminished by the $5 voucher value if you actually use it to buy some products. That's $5 that you wouldn't otherwise have, etc. But I did not mean it to sound as if those $5 vouchers could be used on the monthly payment itself. The Vouchers are only good on DAZ Original products, not on the platinum club membership, just like always. Sorry for any confusion, Momcat. Steve

OK, so then which vouchers are the ones that you can use on PC items? Can you use them on any PC item, or just DAZ originals PC items?

Steve, Why are you restricting the $5 platinum club vouchers? Since they expire monthly it doesn't seem likely that they will be useful for long unless you're planning on releasing a whole lot of new DAZ Original low cost items outside of the Platinum Club. Having these be restricted against purchasing Platinum Club items makes them a whole lot less attractive of a proposition. Why not just let people use them as vouchers period? I understand needing to restrict them to DAZ Original Content, but the way you seem to indicate that it works now means a PC member will almost always have to spend extra money to use the $5 time limited voucher every month. That just seems like manipulative marketing hype and leaves a bit of a sour taste in one's mouth. It's awfully convenient to be able to say 7.95 per month but you get 5.00 back in the form of a voucher so it really only costs you 2.95! Except since the vouchers are so limited that they will often not be useful to members it's not really like getting 5.00 back. For a company that otherwise seems so good to their customers, I don't understand the need to restrict the vouchers in this manner especially when it comes off leaving customers feeling manipulated like this does. In case you're taking note of customer opinion, obviously I vote for not restricting the new PC monthly vouchers against DAZ Original PC items. Let a credit from DAZ be useful against any DAZ item. If you can't get around this restrictive PC voucher thing then at least don't have them expire at the end of the month so people can save them up and get something worthwhile outside of the PC without having to spend extra to use the vouchers. My .02 Frank

Oh, and how much is the renewal if you choose the lump sum payment?

Ditto what Frank just said. ::tosses .02 into the fountain::

I'd suggest renaming the vouchers to avoid confusion. The Platinum Club vouchers don't work on Platinum Products. Ick! Talk about confusing people! Perhaps you could have 2 different namesfor the vouchers. DAZ vouchers - good on any DAZ original products no matter where in the site they are, and DAZ Premiere vouchers - good on any DAZ original items in the Premiere section. If you're part of the Plat Club, you get the DAZ Premiere vouchers. Contests, etc. earn you the regular DAZ vouchers. I will admit, I really don't like the quick expiration on the vouchers you get from the monthly Plat Club fee. Some months there aren't that many DAZ original items released in the Premiere area. Again, I'd like to see some of the Plat Club items also offered in the Premiere area at higher prices. Or you could do what you did originally, offer the entire set in the Premiere area, and smaller sets in the Plat Club. Even if you bought it all in the Plat area, you still saved vs. buying in the Premiere area. (The fairy wing texture sets, for example.) This not only gives the Plat people a way to use the vouchers if it's a light month for DAZ original Premiere items, but it makes it more likely that people without a Plat membership will have some of the Plat items so people who make add-ons for the items will have a bigger audience. Cheers! And go home - it's past your bedtime! ;-)

There was intended to be a new type of voucher for use in Premier and Special Interest that new PC members would recieve monthly and a free bonus if customers felt they wanted to use them. These new class of vouchers were accidently set to be usuable on PC items mistakenly, turning almost three out of four new items in the PC each month into frebbies. this was never intended for obvious reasons. Standard Daz vouchers are still usable as they have in the past. I caught this mistake after the misinformation was already communicated but the weekend had begun already and the staff had left. What some of you are now seeing is that the programmer has reset the new monthy Bonus vouchers to work in the stores there were originally intended being Premier and Special Interest. Regards, Anton Content Creator Daz3d Platinum CLub --------------------------------- My sole job is to make stuff for the Platinum CLub. Though I may do some items for Premier like I did for V3, all PC items are exclusively PC. The "in-house" production team supllies Premier.

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

Anton, Are you saying that the ability to use DAZ vouchers for DAZ Original Platinum Club items negatively impacts your compensation? If so, I see the need to restrict them. If not, I still see no reason to restrict them. The PC certainly turns out much more than four items per month and the key word in almost three out of four is "almost." It would only be two "freebies" per month and the marketing hype would have us believe that they aren't really free - we're paying 7.95 per month to get them. Anyway, if the concept of the new PC vouchers being usable in the PC negatively impacts your compensation plan, then at least they could do away with the time limit or extend it to 6 months or something to make the PC vouchers truly useful. Frank

I wish you would put a voucher faq section on your site. I recently got a $50 voucher from a competition and was told I could not use it to buy platinum club stuff at all, but only Daz original products from the Premier section. As it happened, I didn't have Vickie (but I do now and was very glad to have my pc discount thank you :-)) so I was happy to get her this way. I've still got about $5 hanging around because I couldn't spend any more this month. What kinds of vouchers you do, and what they are good on would be a useful bit of information to have on site. Different names would be good as well. Shanna :-)

We do turn out more than 4 but usually only 3 or four are Daz items. the others are brokered for the texture artists Lisa, Merrilyn, Moyra, or Laurie. They are exclusive to the PC but are still brokers. The free monthy $5 vouchers can't be used in the PC cause it turns 2 items into freebies. This is way too much. A Voucher is never intended to make an item a freebie..not to even mention two items or more. The Vouchers are indeed useful. There are lots of things in the Premier area that are Daz made and people don't own. They may be buried under brokered products but they are in there. The only reason there are so many PC items is because I and Michael Lane are making them. We don't get help from the Premier Production Team. If we stopped to make items for Premier we loose time making for PC So basically if you want more Premier items that will just mean me taking an item I would normally provide to you for $1.99 and making it up to $24.95 in Premier so you can use your $5 voucher. The vouchers are mmade to expire becuase they would be too powerful if they stacked. Daz's products are extremely complex to make. And Daz' low prices, $1.99 downloads, freebies. storwide sales etc are already all extremey generous. The site must remain profitable. Despite what some would love to have you believe, the entire community customer base is now well below 10,000 people. The idea that there are 100,000 peole out there is not true. When i was a broker I was fortunate enough to be the highest selling broker in the community. The most of any one item I have sold to day is around 4000. Most people never ever break 500 for one item. There are those that do but there are fewer than 12 brokers in the community that do out of 100's that make products.. I know people what more and more coupons and cheaper and cheaper products but there becomes a point when you end up going to low and cripple your business. I know everone has there own ideas on what they think would be "best". Though things may seem unorganized right now, trust me. I got your back. Just go Platinum and stay Platinum and your world will rock dispite what some would say. Anyway, just wanted to explain the "why" to how things work the way they do. It just comes down to limits. As a broker I did very well with my $59.95, $49.95, and $39.95 products. I find it hard to believe there is still an issue being raise that people are being cheated by paying $1.99 regardless of the menbership. Regards, Anton Content Creator Daz3d Platinum CLub ---------------------------------------- Crescent, The forums became too hostile for me after awhile so I pulled away. As a result I think communication has suffered. Unfortuantely there has been some poor communication of misinformation I am desperately trying to get corrected. Frank, There are restrictions because the products have to generate a profit.

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

OK. I understand what you're saying Anton. I'm not looking for everything to be free and I'd absolutely rather see DAZ stay in business. It just seems like an odd way to handle things by having multiple types of vouchers, etc. I'd still like to see the time limit on the PC vouchers extended at least a little bit. Keep up the good work. Best, Frank

Anton, Some of us understand deflation. It is a terrible downward spiral. If people expect prices to keep dropping until products are free, or nearly so, they don't purchase anything. If nobody purchases, businesses go... drumroll... out of business. Japan has been in such deflationary doldrums for maybe 3 years, and even the global economics experts can't figure a way out of it. The US is set for deflation as a whole. I've been watching it happen here in the communities: a steady erosion of prices for months now as people expect more freebies, more things cheaper, and more sales. If one merchant puts her entire store on sale for 20% off, another will put his store at 25% off. And so it goes until nobody can earn enough to pay for the cost of making and hosting these items. A couple of years ago, it was rare to have more than a hundred items on sale in the Marketplace... now there are 661 items, which is far too many to search through... and this is after the warehouse and culling by staff of those things which don't sell. IIRC, there was more than a thousand sale items in there just a few weeks ago. :( The worst part is that folks now think that a couple of dollars is a fair price to pay for an item. The Platinum Club at $1.99, PhilC at $2.99, RDNA at $2.50, and PoserPros at $2.49 all contain special items made for that price, and dependent upon volume. In the retail world, they are "loss leaders" and "special values" designed to get people inside a store to shop for other merchandise too. If I bought a promotional teakettle at Macy's for $5, would I expect everything in the store to be sold for that price? No! Every item has a different maker and a different production cost. That same paradigm translates to these online stores. Even if every item is ultimately vertices in virtual space, the time, care, experience of crafting that item varies, and has a value. It would be terrible if greed and shortsightedness brought down an industry where we know most of the producers and distributers. Carolly

Well, gripe about lowered prices all you want. There is still only X amount of dollars to spend by everyone whether the prices are high or low. It is a buyer's market out there. Best quality at the best price will win out as always. The only thing that will happen is, as in any market situation, the merchants who don't sell enough will eventually drop out. Then there will be fewer products and the prices will eventually creep up. As for the voucher thing, DAZ took a simple concept (the Platinum Club) and has now complicated it beyond reason IMHO. I plan to go for the one shot renewal and let everyone else worry about their monthly charges and vouchers.

Personally, I pretty much have all of the daz stuff from the premiere section that I want. Anything I don't have is stuff I likely would never use anyway. Sooo...unless Daz is planning to put out a new item in the Premiere and Special interest categories each and every month, the $5 voucher is a throw-away for me. By that token, if I decide to renew my PC membership when it comes due, I'll be using the "pay all at once" option. If that option isn't available for some reason (don't see why it wouldn't be, but you never know, weirder stuff has happened) then I doubt I would renew. Kate (who really is NOT very happy with places that keep her CC info on file, especially online)

I would suggest allowing the 5 dollar vouchers to be good for at least 45 days, so that there is a little overlap. If there's something in the Premiere section that costs $29.95 I'd be a lot more likely to buy it if I had $10 in vouchers. :)

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

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{{{{The worst part is that folks now think that a couple of dollars is a fair price to pay for an item. The Platinum Club at $1.99, PhilC at $2.99, RDNA at $2.50, and PoserPros at $2.49 all contain special items made for that price, and dependent upon volume. In the retail world, they are "loss leaders" and "special values" designed to get people inside a store to shop for other merchandise too.}}}} The invention of the Platinum Club did indeed change the Poser Economics landscape, and from the perspective of a site owner, store manager, and also production artist, it is for the worse. When prices were set at 1.99 in the Platinum Club, with the clear apparent motive of driving other businesses literally out of business perhaps if they could not compete, it HAS indeed forced other businesses to either find a way to meet those prices, or come as close as possible, or slowly starve to death. Perhaps the idea was that Daz has deep pockets due to many years of business, and so can outlast, outwit, outplay the other brokerages long enough to see us all go broke due to the 1.99 prices. But, as someone said, unfortunately it has now become a buyers market. A buyers market made by Anton, God love you my friend. Expectations have been changed on what one should get for what price range, and not many merchants will be able to survive this buyers market in the long run. Anton was correct, there are only maybe 12 to 20 production artists out there who produce enough sales per item to still manage to tighten their belt and survive it and hope for better times in the future. I do not think better times in the future are going to come to pass in the deflationary economics setting that the Platinum Club created. So, now you all begin to see the outcome of a year of Platinum Club existence. Other sites and artists, to survive, are going to take the Platinum Club on head to head, toe to toe, cheek to cheek, and jowl to jowl, in a rabid attempt to survive. Deflation will continue. What is worse though, is that I know some REALLY good artists, Master level artists, who will soon leave this business since they can no longer afford to support themselves or their families as they once were able to, unless things change. This was a genuine job for them, and a real source of the income they lived off of. They cannot afford to wait to see if the market improves whilst they lose their houses, and their children go hungry, and medical bills hang over their heads. Soon... there will be two types of artist left. That 12 to 20 or so of the Elite Dragons, those who CAN compete with Anton.... (and he knows who they are ;)) and the artists who as one lady recently said to me, "I know what I made is crap work. I don't care if it is crap, since I have to sell it so cheap anyway. I never intended to be as good as you." I could have wept, just wept to hear such resignation in the face of the economic situation in the Poser market. There once was a time when artists could take time to produce masterpieces, and know that they could get enough compensation for time invested to make it worth their time and energy and the costs of production such as software, hardware, electricity used, etc. Those days are gone. No matter how good something is, the Platinum Club reset peoples expectations to believe it should be given away to them for nothing. Loss Leader sales? Sure, that is the theory. And it works pretty well in regular retail business. You know, come buy the teakettle for 5.00 and pick up 150.00 worth of other items you find you want and need too. Unfortunately the Poser market is not regular business, and it appears that on the whole, these 1.99 range products are merely teaching customers to want ALL products to be priced like that, irregardless of what they are, the hours invested, the quality of the product, or who made it. Just my 2 Cents as a broker, store owner, and store manager. And NO malicious disaparagement or disrespect meant to Anton, whom I adore as a personal friend.

While I can understand why you might feel that way, I don't agree that it has to be like that. I was a customer long before I became a merchant. I won't buy crap no matter how cheap it is, just as I refuse to produce crap, no matter how little I am paid. I also refuse to devalue my work. Discount programs can work to the advantage of the artist. You use them to showcase your talents. If I buy a discounted item from a merchant that turns out to be crap, I will never buy from them again. If I purchase a brokered item from a savings club, and I find the quality to be excellent, I am quite likely to be on the lookout for other products by that artist, and will be more than willing to pay full price for quality work.

I have to say, I agree with Momcat. There are some vendors whose quality I know is excellent, and when I see new products from them I try to save up because I am willing to pay more for them. I love the special clubs/deals and low price stuff because I can then get other quality items that I normally wouldn't be able to afford. But if I get an inexpensive item and it turns out to be shoddy, I usually won't buy from that person again. Also, I seriously doubt that Daz "prices were set at 1.99 in the Platinum Club, with the clear apparent motive of driving other businesses literally out of business". Daz is a business. Like any other they need money to survive. They did something that was good for them- I doubt they 'planned' to send other people out of business. They just wanted to do the very best they could to hold on to their own business. Competition should make markets thrive.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

I think you folks are misunderstanding a couple of things. Competition does indeed make markets thrive. And the markets on the whole are probably not suffering. It is individual artists right now who are suffering. They are simply not being able to make enough on their products anymore, due to having to offer them so cheaply, to go on in this line of business. It is sad, but it is true. Also, inevitably, as the prices have to drop lower and lower on these individual artists goods in order to achieve sales, I fear an inevitable loss of quality, features, details that their products once included, since they cannot afford to invest alot of time in products that sell for the 1.99 - 2.50 price range. It is true that this buyers market IS good for you all as customers. Where else but the Poser community can someone buy the product of 10, 15, 20 or more manhours of labour for so little? Not even in the sweat shops in China and other third world countries. But it is not good for the merchants. It never will be. They must sell MASSIVE quantities of these goods to break even, and the massive sales are just not there except for a few rare talents in the field. It is an uncomfortable subject in general, and has been a source of heated debate between myself and at least one of my staff in the past... but I see the numbers of everyone's sales on my site, and am able to track trends through data mining. What I find is alarming for the outlook of the Poser market.

You're wrong, Mehndi. You're blaming the wrong person. A buyer's market comes about not as a result of lower prices, it comes about as a result of a glut of products in the market. The price reduction is a result, not a cause.

In fact a case could be made that the Platinum Club started because there were just too many stores out there. Maybe the opening of Poser Pros was the straw that broke the camel's back and caused DAZ to start the Club to get some of its business back. I'm not saying it is, but that's just as reasonable a way of looking at it as yours.

There are no guarantees, as I'm sure you know, and telling sob stories is a really cheap shot. Whoever that was who doesn't care about quality isn't going to sell anything, cheaply or otherwise.

And, as a customer, I really resent your assumption that I expect everything for cheap or free now.

It's unfortunate, but there are people out there who figure they can slap something together, sell it cheap, and if they make any money off of it, so much the better. It floods the market, making it appear that there's a ton of choices and pressuring good merchants to lower their prices to compete with the crap. There are also people out there who think they should be able to get everything free, or almost free, and who don't understand that people need to make a living off of their work. As with many things, it's the jerks who are ruining things for everyone else (merchants and customers alike.) With the economy sputtering, prices are heading south right now. It's not DAZ's fault, Rendie's fault, Poser Pros' fault, etc. It's a combination of factors that are mostly beyond anyone's control and people are doing what they can to survive. This is a thread on understanding how DAZ's new system works. Let's not turn it into something more than that. Thanks! Cres

"I know what I made is crap work. I don't care if it is crap, since I have to sell it so cheap anyway. I never intended to be as good as you." I found this statement pretty amazing...any merchant who thinks their own work is crap but sells it anyway shouldn't be selling anything. There are merchants everywhere who prove that you don't need to charge a lot for quality products; BAT and Baron Vlad Harkonnen being two good examples. I think that prices that low also might curb piracy, since not only is it hardly worth tracking down a file that inexpensive, but even if you're not satisfied with the product, it's not a huge loss. :) Just my opinion as always. Take care. SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

I rarely bought items over $20 pre-PC, and I still rarely buy items over $20 now. But I DO still buy "Premier" price items, in about the same quantities - the cheap stuff has increased my total spending, at least.

Snowsultan, the sad thing is, those very words were said to me about 10 days ago by a merchant who wished to sell a product in our store. It was their reply to me asking for a couple of small changes/improvements before we could feel comfortable with release. As I said, it really shocked me, and just made me want to cry even. Such a defeatist attitude. I can't fathom thinking like that. Even the items I am making for the Pro Club which are aimed at being marketed at a very reasonable loss leader sale price are the same level of quality I put into everything, or I'd not make them. My pride simply would not let me. I have not meant to be appearing to be attacking the Platinum Club. It was an inevitable idea and sooner or later was bound to happen in the current economy, no matter where it happened first. My frustration is with the current economy is all, and how to somehow find the words yet again to give encouragement on some level to the really good artists out there who see their sales going through the floor, unless they lower their prices far below profitability, and yet still face such massive competition there are not enough sales from loss leader sales to make it worth their time either. I get their letters and instant messages you see, and they are pretty sad and heartbreaking. Letters where they don't know how they are going to make it much longer, and naturally somehow I wish I could assure them things will soon turn around. But with the situation such as it is, I don't know how to make that reassurance anymore. shrug

My head hurts! Back to Momcat's question in post #20: "Oh, and how much is the renewal if you choose the lump sum payment?" I don't have a CC anymore so I can't take advantage of the monthly program. Therefore, how much for me to Renew?

$69.95 is the renewal price when paying all at once with Paypal or a check/money order. Any other questions about the Platinum Club, please let me know. Thanks, Steve Kondris

I coulda sworn the answer, $69.95 for lump sum, was posted somewhere...

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

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lol Speedy

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

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grin just barely got in before you, Caly! :)

I'll beat ya next time! tee hee

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

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Good, now I can go back to breaking down IPs; much easier to calculate than CC charges ;p

Attached Link: http://www.animotions.com

Spit is exactly right. The downward spiral of prices is the result of the sheer glut of product and stores out there (new ones opening everyday). It is the symptom, not the diease. The disease is so many artists and stores fighting over a *very* small pool of customers. While these communities may seem large, they really aren't in the grand scheme of things. And the customer base is only a very small fraction of the member base of these sites. So, the answer is not continuing to scrabble, scratch and fight over those same small number of customers, it's expanding the customer base. Store owners and artists alike should be thinking about how to turn more people into customers. Heaven knows, Curious Labs hasn't done a very good job of marketing their product. (How many people in your lives have even heard of Poser?) DAZ Studio is planned to open up this market. In the meantime, though, we should all be thinking of ways to get new customers, not fighting over the same few and pricing ourselves out of business.

True, the glut of products has caused the customer spending power to spread thinner and thinner, and in a shrinking market it is turning swiftly to disaster. This is why things like the Platinum Club, then Real Deals, and now Pro Club were inevitable. A way to try to survive the glut of products and build up a stronger customer base. As to bringing in totally new blood into the Poser community, hopefully Daz's Studio will help with that, but right now the community seems a bit stagnant on that front, and not all of us can afford to run massive publicity campaigns such as it might take or visit lots of conventions, etc, to try to draw in fresh blood. I simply do not know what the answer is on the bringing in of fresh blood.

Attached Link: http://www.animotions.com

Which brings me to a question for Mehndi.

You say you are concerned about the downward spiral of prices and what it will do to the artists and stores, as well as the general quality of items, yet you jumped right on the bandwagon by running continual sales and now your Pro Club with products at $2.49.

Wouldn't it have been better not to take the easy way out and come up with a better solution so as not to further this downward spiral?

And remember, there are other ways to compete besides price.

It has taken us almost a year to come to the decision to follow in the path of the Platinum Club. It has not been an easy decision to make or to implement. As for our Buy 1 Get 1 Free sales, they are just on big holidays, hardly continual :) They DO bring in new customers to our site, and that is proven through our data mining. So far our Pro Club is also bringing in new customers to the site, and that is good. That is what this is all about right now, a way to increase the site's customer base. We are not rich people, and our site draws a huge amount of bandwidth, and so we must find ways to generate enough income to support it, or it will simply disappear. There is no easy way out, not even the Pro Club and our Buy 1 Get 1 Free sales, no matter how much I wish there were. One thing that is certain in our Pro Club area, the quality is no less than in any other item we sell in the store. This is why we have so jealously guarded admission to this area, so as to be able to at least preserve that :)

{{{And remember, there are other ways to compete besides price.}}} Oh, sorry, am cooking dinner and got scatter brained and forgot to address this point. Indeed, there are other ways we could compete besides price alone. We could go into the Porn business. But so far we have chosen to stay clear of your territory Diane out of respect for you and the customer base you have worked your arse off building.

Mehndi,

Providing a safe and sane community for people to share works of adult art is no guarantee of success. We have witnessed the stumbling of one such site recently.

I consider your belittling the efforts of the many fine artists at Renderotica with a shock-word, while appearing to praise DSI, to be a tactic unbecoming the discussion here.

I have not belittled any of the artists at Renderotica Diane. Where are you getting this from? It seems to me you are sort of in a crotchety mood, and looking to twist everything that is being said, no matter what it is.

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I can't understand why people would pay to purchase products. Think about it. Some of us buy twice as much (at least) when products are cheaper. And purchase textures in the $20.00 range. We're still here. And I like doing business with those who offer a little goodie every month. Makes me want to spend my dollars there. Of course i'm going broke!

It runs on a similar principal as price clubs like Costco or BJ's Wholesalers. You purchase a yearly membership, and get to shop in their warehouse. The average price for most items is comparable to the weekly special price of a sale item in a regular store, and many times you can find high end items at wholesale...sort of like factory outlet shopping, but you pay for the convenience of not having to drive halfway across the state to get to it, and you have both grocery and department store type merchandise under one roof. On top of the normal savings, there are weekly or monthly sales. People pay to shop there because they get trusted brand names, at low prices, in volume.

The reason we chose to not go with a pay membership model for the Pro Club was frankly to keep matters a bit simpler both for us, and for customers. Just pay for what you want, whenever you want it, no strings attached :) This also frees up the developers in the Pro Club development group to be able to work more at their own pace, and not feel like they have to meet a production quota in fear we won't have enough in that area of the store every few days to meet the promises made in any sort of paid membership area.

hence why I bought a platinum club membership at DAZ. I mainly bought it knowing I would get a discount on the upcoming V3, and there was a bunch of V2 stuff I had been dying to get that got put in there. But I will need some convincing before I renew it though... lately the offerings aren't as interesting for me. They are high quality... just not my thang.

Well that cinches it then. I'm either going to scrape together the 69.95 by October or not get it. The 7.95 a month did not bother me when I though the $5 vouchers could be used on it. But due to recent events, paying 7.95 a month for something that I can't use because I need more money for it won't happen. I'd rather spend my little spare money on more substantial things. I have to agree with the downward spiral thing...internet boom caused alot of us to get training something that put much of us out there. Ah Well.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Merchants seem to be under the impression that the market is flooded with crap. The truth is that the market is rich with excellent stuff too! It is not the customer's responsibility to worry about the merchant making a living. Especially when some of use FOOD money to purchase Poser stuff. I'm not complaining because I've made my choice. Poser stuff is more important to me than shoes (I only have one pair and that's all I need right now anyway LOL). If any store makes us pay a fee for the privilege of buying stuff, I won't join. Platinum is different because it's DAZ and they are the suppliers of the main figures we use which makes the discounts very valuable.

One way to attract more people to buy products is to increase the market place for people to sell the products they create with Poser. If people know they can sell art,tee shirts, mugs, images etc. they will purchase more supplies to create with.

my experience is that those things don't sell well. Maybe art, if its really good. The t-shirts, mugs etc... knickknacks ... not really.

As a merchant I'll just ad that there is definately an OVER saturation of VICKY and VICKY related poser products in the "poser market" and the situation will only get worse because posers marketbase is likey to shrink NOT grow in the future. Poser5 is most assuredly the last version of poser we will see from curious labs :-/ and I have seen NO concrete assurances from DAZ that" Daz studio" wiil be able to use All of this existing poser content that exists out there.

My website

YouTube Channel

I agree. I spend a lot of time building techniques and spend money buying addons and textures for use in Carrara. Poser is just a posing app for me. They should have worked more on the interoperability of the program with others and less on the gimmicks.

Oops, I have no noticed of the existence of this thread, otherwise I wouldn't write this one:

Just my opinion

Cheers!!

Luis, not everyone here can reach your thread, as it is in a closed forum. Can you re-post it here please? Thanks :)

Oops, I thought this thread was is the merchants forum too. LOL Sure ... here it is, just as I've posted it in the Merchants forum, It has as subject "Digital WAR?" ----------------------------------------------------------- Hi all: I want to relate a true history that happened years ago, when I was a child - many many years ago. LOL. In the little town where I was born, we had 3 theatres, one covered for winter and two more without ceiling just for summer time (3/4 of the year in my country). Well, in winter there was no problem, only one owner got all the money from the customers, but in summer every one of the cinema owners, thought about the way to get the maximum number of people into his theatre. At the beginning, one of them planned to put on better and newer movies than the other, and indeed, his idea was very good. Almost all the people began to go to his cinema. Then the other put on 2 movies for the same price as one and in that moment the fight began. Every morning, in the main street of the town, both owners put a big poster with the advertising for the movies for that night and a chalkboard with the schedule and prices. Well, the following is just the truth of the facts that happened. The prices of the ticket for both cinemas was 100 for example. The owner of the first cinema put a price of 90, then the other owner changes his chalkboard price to 80, then the other to 60, then to 40 and .... well to cut a long story short, the end result was that one of them wrote in his chalkboard the incredible price of 0.00. The main bar of the town was just at the other side of the street and you can imagine the laughs and comments of all the people there. It was saturday and the bar was full of people. People said: And now what? This is the end, the other owner can't do a better offer. 2 MOVIES FOR FREE!!! . Well, they were mistaken. In about 15 mins the other theatre owner appear and laughing like hell, delete his old price (I think it was 10) and taking his chalk he wrote: Today 2 movies for free and the company will give a soft drink to every person that comes to watch our program. :) And this is the end of the story. A TRUE STORY!! And now, why have I related this? Well, the Poser community is going in the same direction as the cinema owners. First there was Daz with the Platinum market, then RDNA with lots of articles for just $2.50, now Poser Pros with the new Pro Club to just $2.49. PhilC with his $1.95.... What the next? Buy 1 and get 10? Or maybe if you get one of my articles for free I'll give you $5 for your trust? I think we are burning the Poser market. From here I request all merchants to stop this price war, Otherwise, very soon the Poser market will disappear. I propose that none of us put prices below $5 in any one store and of course, that price would be for a simple prop, small texture or just a few poses. For the rest of the models, we must request the appropriate price. IMHO I think that the only ones harmed here are us, the artists, the creators of the products, that after passing a lot of time working on a project, we have to sell it for almost nothing. If we deduct broker percent, taxes and in my case the loss from the rate of exchange, what do we get? How many articles do we have to sell to get proper compensation for our hard work? There is nothing more to say, I will remain keeping my prices at an appropriate level and I hope that all of you do the same. If things dont change in the near future, I will have to say goodbye to this fantastic community to continue selling my creations in another more productive markets. That's all. Any suggestions or comments will be welcome!! --------------------------------------------------------- You are welcome Mehndi!! :)

I have read this thread from top to bottom which is unusual for me LOL. I usually lack the patience to follow a thread to its conclusion. From the point of view of not having much of an income I find the buyers market attractive but having been in business in the past I can see major problems arising from the mode of competition which has arisen. Certainly there is a glut of merchants at the moment and prices are ridiculously low. But seriously it hasn't increased the amount of things that I buy. I still look around for the merchant who has the quality of goods that I need and if there is something more expensive I try to save up for it until I am able to buy it. The glut of products has not necessarily increased the quality. I think it is terribly unfair if someone spends hours making clothing or props and then is forced through market pressures to charge such a low price. It equates to working for cents per hour. Where in any other industry in the western world does anyone work for such small recompense.

Unlike most production items, however, the same thing can be sold over and over again. It takes up the same amount of space on the shelf whether one or a hundred are sold, it doesn't spoil, and it can be sold a hundred times over. What kills a product is the fad of the moment that overwhelms another fad of the moment. The market is volatile and depends on the whims of the latest "in" thing. But that's not unusual in a business based mostly on vanity rather than need. (Very few people could be said to "need" a Vicky 3 outfit...that's an idle want, not a necessity to life no matter what drama we all like to engage in.) Yes, I think the merchants should be paid for the value of what they create, but it's not the same as other industries. If a person sells a real car, it can only be sold once and then a second car has to be built from additional materials which is an additional cost. A virtual car can be sold over and over again without any additional materials needed. I have also noticed that while the prices have gone down, the size of the packages have also become smaller. That's fine with me. A large, expensive package with only one or two items in it of interest to me is not cost effective; a small package which has the same two items in it will be picked up. The market drives the industry. The vendors who can't afford to stay in business will end up moving on to more profitable areas. It's sad but hardly a new story.

"From here I request all merchants to stop this price war" Nice try :) In the 'real world' that would be collusion and price fixing. And that is illegal.

Luis, I am glad you stepped forward to speak in this thread, since you are one of the Master Level artists I was speaking of earlier whose situation I am intimately familiar with, and who may indeed someday leave us all the poorer if you pull out of the Poser Industry due to the Depreciation of the Poser Economic situation. I had not felt comfortable naming names, and am glad at least one of you have come forward to speak. Thank you :) In the Poser Community, somewhere along the lines, we all began to live "The American Dream", if you will pardon that expression. You know what The American Dream is, don't you? Find something you love, and then twist it, and strangle it, and torture it, and warp it, trying to make more and more money at it, till you neither love it anymore, nor are making any money at it. It seems to make some feel uncomfortable to have it put flat on the line and said that most Poser artists are making less than 3rd World Sweat Shop "slaves" for their work. I have never been one to avoid the nasty truths just because they are uncomfortable. Though it is true Dialyn that poser assets can indeed be re-sold countless times, if you ask any of us you will find that is really true only in "theory". Products do indeed have a cap on how many they will sell. And that cap is pretty low for most people. The vast majority of merchants whose actual sales statistics I am familiar with sell less than 20 copies of a product in it's lifetime. Again, this is probably the result of too many products in the market, a glut of competition that results in the "needs" and "interests" of the consumer shifting elsewhere more swiftly than in the old days when there was simply less to be had. Unfortunately, there is no easy answer that I can think of. It would be splendid if it were possible to do as you suggest Luis and not set any prices below 5.00 irregardless. But so long as the competition does so, if we do not, then we will slowly wither on the vine till at last the day comes we cannot afford to pay our staff anything, pay our hosting and bandwidth costs, and shut the site down. The problem with the Poser Economic situation being what it is is that we are actually beginning to lose some of the best artists out there. As I said, in this climate, the only ones who can survive in the long haul are the very small minority of Poser Dragons who sell large quantities of goods no matter their prices, these are the ones Anton mentions, and the novice Poser Artists who produce a sort of newbie level work and feel that their sales are just great if they are making 5.00 a week. There is getting to be less and less of a middle ground. And yet, I have no answer. I cannot find the answer no matter how I struggle to think it through. The Great Shaking Out is almost upon us, and perhaps we can hope the market will improve once it is over, but somehow I have my fears it wont... it will just be made up of the rich getting richer, and the poor getting poorer, and lots of "crap" in the marketplace, interspersed with the few rare gems left. Blech. Now I've gone and depressed myself again :) I had better get back to doing this texture before I begin to cry.

Well, it's not as if the product wears out either. If I buy a car, I have to buy another one eventually. With Poser stuff, I only need to buy it once. Unless the file corrupts or my hard drive dies, I won't buy it again. That's why I think the small packages have an advantage...especially when they build on other things. I love the clothes packages that let me pick and choose what I want. I don't need any fantasy wraps /fantasy outfits / fetish gearin my collection...but I am always on the search for realistic clothes. If I can buy one without buying the other, I'm buying the smaller package instead of the larger one with the stuff I'll never use. I think the vendors are coming to the point where they need to not only do what they themselves like but also be sensitive to the demands of their audience and decide how they want to target themselves. Okay, we now have a hundred Koshini outfits and textures. Shall I (as a merchant) focus on Koshini outfits and textures under the theory that the Koshini will last as a demanded item, or should I diversify to capture the non-Koshini people? Yes, I'm the fetish queen in my marketplace...shall I keep on making fetish stuff because that's where my fantasies take me, or should I make a few items for the non-fetish people in the crowd so that they know I can think outside the crotch? There may be no need to change if you have a steady market, but every reason to change if you see business as usual is not doing the usual business. And there will always be a market for fantasy / science fiction/ pin up / fetish stuff. I'm not saying that. But what a merchant has to decide is if they can continue with the same old focus or do they need to explore outside of the box of their personal preference and prejudices? I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I do think you have to think about where the market is and if you want to follow a fad or set a style of your own. There are some merchants out there that I buy from regularly, and check out regularly for new items. There are others that have predictably stuff I don't want so I never go back to their store UNLESS I see them break into a new area once in awhile. It's up to the merchants. I can't create my own stuff. I have to buy to keep my graphics fresh. But what I buy depends on what you make available to me. It's that easy. It's that hard. I sure don't envy anyone trying to make a living in this marketplace. Again, this is a vanity market driven by wants instead of needs. If people have reduced incomes, they are going to have to buy less of the "wants" and focus more on food, shelter, education for their children. That's just the way it is. If people have increased incomes, then they have more money for play. Of course there are people making their living with what they buy here. I don't envy them that task either. It's got to be a tough market for everyone and not just a few.

Dialyn brings up a point I would be interested in opinions on. I spend months on some of my morph packages. Roxanne, for example, comes with 178 head morphs and 65 faces (among other things). In this time of declining prices, I too have wondered if I should change strategies. So, my question is, do more people prefer single character packages (without all the morphs and faces) at lower prices, or do you prefer the large packages at the higher price? Currently, Roxanne sells for $25.00, and you get the above plus, which works out to about 65 different characters. So, do people prefer all 65 characters at $25.00; or do you prefer 65 separate characters at say $5.00 (Renderosity's lowest allowed price) a piece? Personally, I feel $25.00 is the better deal, but do others think so? Of course, this assumes you have interest in characters, but consider the example for any type product. Beth

Beth....I honestly think it depends on the customer which they would prefer. Some people like buying in bulk. They will use all your amazing morphs and they find value in that. But someone like me will only use a few of the morphs...so it isn't as interesting to me. What you might think about is doing a test...a mini-pack of your favorite morph/faces as an introduction to what you do. Maybe 2 or 3 of Roxane and 2 or 3 of Boris, and see what happens. Offer a small discount (is that possible?) if someone goes on to buy the full package of either or both. Does that strategy produce sales or no? There are always new people coming into the forum...the question is how do you keep getting your product out in front of newcomers, as well as finding ways to hold on to old customers with new products. I don't envy you the task.

The Platinum design wasn't enevitable. What was inevitable was that people would copy it. At one point I was going to leave Daz as a broker and open my own store. That was when I designed the formula that is the Platinum Club. When I told Daz I was leaving and showed them the PC, they expressed that they wanted to find a way for me to stay. What was decided was that I would be hired to bring the Platinum Club to Daz instead of me doing it alone. However there are some things you should know. The Platinum Club cannot successfully be copied. If a stores copies it, it will cripple them. It was designed to be impossible to duplicate. See it succeeds through a specific formula and design. Each aspect is crucial. If portions of the formula are removed the whole thing crumbles. The reason other stores, except Daz, aren't doing well is because the Poser community is too small now. The amount of content is not what is causing it. Bad products aren't the reason eaither. See I saw this coming years ago and planned for it. Copying the Platinum Design will not save a broker or store. It will just accelerate closure. Take it from the guy who designed it please. best everyone go about doing things as they have. The Platinum design will just do unrepairable damage to other stores if they try to imitate it. Decide what you want but don't say I didn't warn you. Personally Daz brokers in Premier are still selling well into the 100's and beyond despite the times, and Daz is always happy to take quality brokers. Regards, Anton

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

Anton, with all due respect, whats good for the goose can also be good for the gander ;) So far, we are finding our Pro Club to be quite a boon to PoserPros :) Thanks for the idea!

:) Well best of luck to you Liz. My Pleasure.

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

it's kinda a myth that joining the pclub your getting items at $1.99. your not. through the year you would have to buy about 150 pclub items for the price of each item to be $1.99. i find it funny after reading this thread that people would have an expectation that becuase PClub is around and items are $1.99 that it's some how lowered the market and people have had to lower prices to compete. the less items you buy over a year at pclub, the more your spending for those items, more than $1.99 i mean. I know that I did not buy all the items in pclub offered so far, I've roughly spent about $6.00 an item using the pclub. I know i got my moneys worth on those items i bought, and all the V3 discounts, the M3 discounts that I'm sure will come, the DazStudio discounts next year as addons come out etc.

BS... Poserworld has a successful subscription site for a long time. Platinum is merely a variation of the subscription service. Instead of paying more up front for unlimited download like you would at Steve Shank's place (who did it successfully first in Poserland I do believe), you pay a bit less up front, and pay a small fee for each download instead. Its definitely copyable, and I would even say Platinum in some ways is a copy of Poserworld... the deal is that its not copyable if you don't have a good team to create good content that keeps people interested in paying for it. As for others doing it the way RDNA and Poser Pros does it... we call that loss leaders in the retail biz. Personally, I'm to the point of dumping my Platinum Club membership and paying for a lifetime Poserworld one... as I'm finding more to my liking at Poserworld now.

Attached Link: http://www.virginia.edu/economics/Workshops/Theory/Loss%20Leader%20110102.pdf

here's a link explaining what a loss leader is, pdf file download.

Exactly, MachineClaw. I got my moneys worth definitely in the time I've been in the Platinum Club. Its really been wonderful. But now I see too much fantasy stuff, just for V3, or cartoon stuff that doesn't interest me whatsoever. That's ok if people like lots of fantasy and cartoon stuff, its not my thing. Steve does a lot of real world clothing, he makes it compatible for V2 as well as V3, he makes more scenery and straight out props, he does a TON of historical stuff that I absolutely adore... its not a slam on the Platinum club, merely that I don't think I'll get my moneys worth in PC like I did this year, next year... and I may get more for those dollars if I pay for Poserworld. Its not personal. Its just business :)

Anton, all the attitude in the world can't make what you say true, just because you believe it. :) In truth, PoserPros does NOT lose money on any single ProClub sale. It's actually not a "loss leader" in any form. It is possible to price items at that level and still make a nickel or dime per sale, as we give the ProClub merchants a 75% cut. As to Platinum Club being more affordable ... in one year's time, you would have to buy 234 Platinum Club items to get their "real" price down to PoserPros' ProClub price of $2.49. That takes into account the $29.95 startup and $7.95 per month cost. Of course, they haven't even released that many products for Platinum Club yet anyway. :) Yep bijouchat, it's just business. :)

read the pdf, you'll find that loss leaders actually make money, not lose money, if you do them right. It is what its called, its simply a business tactic. Brick and mortar stores do it all the time, it didn't get invented here. :)

Loss leaders make their money in offering a popular product that will sell in high volume to recoup their cost, and in drawing people into the store to make additional purchases... hence the name. They only make money to recoup their production and advertising costs if the products are popular and sell in volume. They do make a certain amount of profit per unit sale, they are never priced under what they cost to produce. Not if you really want to make money with them, anyway. Platinum is not a loss leader, its a subscription service.

in the pdf, they have an excellent definition for loss leader: loss leader: A good that is priced below its marginal cost. Marginal cost being the usual profit margin. The products are not priced below the production cost. Which would fit with everything that Russell has said about the ProClub. there's no question that's what the Real Deals and ProClub are. Now, this isn't a BAD thing in my mind... its a smart thing, really. :)

Don't forget that the Platinum Club isn't just about the items in the Platinum Club section. It's an automatic 30% discount on all! Daz original items. So say Premiere or Special Interest Daz stuff comes out... it's already on sale usually at 30% off... The Platinum Club gives you another 30% off on top of that. I got V3 complete, hair bikini Active Wear, etc. and Mimic 2 Pro for a low, low price.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

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yes, I know it is a 30 percent additional discount. But you get a discount every time they release something new, if you buy it when it comes out. when you work out the math, the price of the Platinum club does not work out if you do not buy enough items from it. I did at the beginning, but I do not see the content now that would justify the cost again.

Thanks for the link bijouchat. And you're right. My thinking on "loss leader" was apparently a little off. The "loss" is not necessarily a true loss, but a lower than normal profit margin. Excellent reading! Thanks!

Anton: "See it succeeds through a specific formula and design. Each aspect is crucial. If portions of the formula are removed the whole thing crumbles." One more point ... if your "specific formula" is so crucial, why did DAZ change it this year? Does the whole thing crumble now? ;)

"yes, I know it is a 30 percent additional discount. But you get a discount every time they release something new, if you buy it when it comes out." But if you buy it when it first comes out you also get the 30% off on top of the discount. I think you missed that. If DAZ is not having sales anymore that will be bad for them. If I miss something on initial release it's very very rare I'll buy it later. Which means I won't get addons for it either. And that also affects other stores who sell addon products for DAZ stuff.

"The Platinum design will just do unrepairable damage to other stores if they try to imitate it."

Sounds like an "old wives' tale along the lines of swallowing a watermellon seed will grow a watermellon patch in your stomach. Or desperation to keep an idea from spreading and taking a chunk of change away from the original. ;^P

not a old wives tale at all. If stores adoptided the Wallmart sales practice they'd be out of bussiness. or took one casinos stradegy to their own it wouldn't work. if you look at the price structure of sales and figure in broker fees and look at Daz you can come up with a general formula that Anton is talking about for the PClub. it won't be THE formula, but it would be ball park, and you can see why it wouldn't work at other poser stores. his statement is pretty much on the money. now, stores aren't gunna open their books, give away stradegies, or secrets. it's a bussiness, they are their to make money not give it away. all the speculation in the world boils down to speculation. if you buy stuff at daz on a regular basis, and those products are Daz creations, the pclub will save you money over a full year. it will make daz money and everybody is tickled pink and happy.

"Sounds like an "old wives' tale along the lines of swallowing a watermellon seed will grow a watermellon patch in your stomach. Or desperation to keep an idea from spreading and taking a chunk of change away from the original. ;^P" It's worse than that Illusions. Anton himself, just called my house literally screaming hysterically into the phone for about 20 minutes before he hung up on me. Nothing I could say calmed him. Not even pointing out that our Pro Club products support his Platinum Club product releases, and what is good for us is also good for him, thus good for the goose is good for the gander reference. I managed to take a bit of dication before I was too hurt and upset and crying too hard to type anymore. Some of the words he shouted at me are these: ====================================================== "If you try and copy the Platinum Club you will cripple your store. Don't go there. Only I know how to make such a thing work, you can't copy it Liz!" "You put Russell up to being disrespectful of me in public and accusing me of having attitude, don't lie and tell me you didn't!" "You need to snap out of this world you are living in because you've pissed me off royaly. When you are closed out, when you are working at Walmart Liz, don't say I didn't tell you so. I will ruin you!" "You have shown disrespect for the last time Liz." "I made you, and I can take you down. You will never work in this business again if I don't want you to." ====================================================== As an aside, I'd like to mention that Russell made his posts to this thread quite on his own, while I was sleeping, without any prodding or input from me. He usually does that ;) Then I get up to face the music! ;p If anything is influencing Russell it is the fact Anton likes to call our house at 3:00 AM our time, and sort of be a slight "braggy-bully" toward me in the calls in the past. Anton is way way out of control.

posting that is completely out of line too. tit for tat tatics and such just are so wrong. pushing buttons, screaming merchants, man people need to switch to decaf bad! haha screaming merchant sounds like a fun character, some D&D monster. reaches into a large bag and throws little blue packets to everybody "CHILL PILLS! Get your chill pills here! free chill pills!"

No Machineclaw, it is not out of line to reveal when a Daz employee is calling people and verbally harrassing and threatening them. For far too long those of us who have been treated this way by Anton, and there is more than just me, have kept this dirty little secret of his abuse silent. But we are not the guilty, we are his victims. It is time one of us had the guts to step forward and reveal what he does to us behind closed doors.

well its a TOS violation. what people do behind closed doors is up to them. what they do in a public forum is not up to them. civility and order are needed. I'm sorry that youve been hurt, it is unfortunate. but this this not the place to air it. if your having problems with a member, a employee of a company then there are channels to deal with that.

I am not attacking Anton, unlike his unwarrented attack on me. I am quoting his words to me directly. Facts spoken calmly are not a TOS violation. If he did not want it related, then he should not have done it.

Members and users are expected to conduct themselves in a manner that is constructive and respectful of others at all times. If Daz and Poserpros has issues, please take them to Daz or PoserPros. Renderosity is not the place for this fight. Please do not post what someone else said to you on a private phone call without permission from both parties Thanks Spike

You can't call it work if you love it... Zen Tambour